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shaman is just a word. i liked mr wormwoods "bolt from the blue" post. it was an excellent post IMHO, but he does make reference to a certain definition of what a shaman is and while in the context of his post it's quite clear what he means, there is no universal definition of the word so i don't know if anyone can answer your question change. the word comes from siberia yet is almost always applied to south americans nowadays, for obvious reasons. tribal mystics predate the very concept of $500 so it's arguable if such thing as a "true shaman" can even coexist with modern concepts. edit: FWIW i've been surprised and confused by the direction this thread took. i think this is an opportunity to increase awareness. the article was written with commendable sensitivity and so far our discussion has been blunt and combative.

People can find it hard to control alot of things to do with sex, money, and drugs. Priest and shaman too!

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hey, not too used with this group but is the only thing I can think of, but not sure. sowed 2 years ago a couple of trays of Achuma seeds from SS, think they where being described as a sort of bridge... it would be the first mislabeling from them, a nice one...

EDIT: Everything is finding good homes. Yay! No longer for Sale. The cactus world is full of amazing people. If a mod sees this and wishes to delete it, cool. Otherwise, the pictures are pretty. Trichocereus brevispinulosus Trichocereus peruvianas. There's been some speculation that it's a cuzco but I have no idea. Trichocereus macrogonus. Trichocereus werdermannianus. taquimbalensis (thank you for the correction Evil Genius!) Trichocereus terscheckii #1 Trichocereus terscheckii #2. Trichocereus scopulicola. Some speculation this is cordobensis.

Thats a bit sad then. I haven't met many people that have taken ayahuasca but I have read and listened to a lot of people discussing their experiences and it seem many are getting some benefit from their experiences. Of course, some are not. Do you have a standard measurement as to how fucked up you considered people to be before and post experience that makes you consider they've had no benefit whatsoever? You say you haven't seen many people you considered "healed" which implies you've seen some that have? I don't mind bluntness. I was more feeling that Changes posts were vague and random and little more than finger diarrhoea spread through the posts. The fact some of the posts have now been deleted bears out that they contributed little. I think there is wide scope for people deluding themselves and other people, in many ways. But then practically, I question what people want to get out of these experiences and are they getting them? I wonder, who is getting hurt and who is getting helped? There's no doubt people will look for a way out of shitty situations whether its through western medicine, psychology, psychiatry, spiritualism, religion, psychedelics, drugs. For some, some things work, for others it works but they become insufferable assholes, for others it doesn't work and still others just find more harm and even death. Some retreat centres are going to have more ethics around who they treat and why, some in it for the money and some not. I think its a shame to see things so black and white. Its kind of like people that have such an intense hatred of police and can't see beyond that to the people behind the uniform and recognise some are cunts and some aren't. question: who in your opinion are the real shamans? You're statement implies you think there are some out there but these people are not. Is there a point when you see that a shaman has stopped being a shaman because they act in a certain way? Do people going to these places have some responsibility, no matter how fucked up their life is for their own actions or is it all the fault of the system in place, or something else?

Lol I thought we were discussing south American retreats

500 brews for healing makes healing exclusively accessible to the rich, how very shamanistic, its a shame they wont give me a discount for having a health care card. A real shaman would be volunteering at the hospital healing the terminally ill, but i guess its not good for your sharman Rep if your terminally ill patients keep dying.

maybe a practitioners place on the continuum from healer to fraudster is indeterminable.

Maybe its what is done with the 500 that would set the shaman apart from a fraud

It would be good if answering my questions was possible

love, take a laxative.. and hope it doesn't hit real sudden

Whenever money enters into the spiritual realm its material nature cannot help but taint that experience to some degree, no matter how small. They are codependent, in that the spiritual is the yin to the material's yang. Complete sincerity in deed is therefore less common nowadays when compared to the past. We as a species have become so much more materialistic, so that the spirit as motivating factor for communion and brotherhood amongst mankind is placed further and further into the distance. This is also why when we encounter those that embody nobility of spirit and sincerity of deed it is so powerful. As Lao Tzu said, "Best to look for it in you!" or something... and from reset.me http://reset.me/story/20-safety-tips-for-participating-in-ceremonies-that-use-psychoactives/

"Whenever you get a situation like that unscrupulous practitioners will move into any field, especially in countries where poverty is rife. It will also happen in more affluent countries but to a lesser degree as life generally has a higher value in affluent society." maybe. or perhaps they have a network of vested interests / numerous "medical bodies" that protect these unscrupulous people, and paint over such matters with fancy colors. If you have ever had to deal with a negligent "doctor" here, or just looked into sri materials and medicine criteria you notice something rather alarming. something that directly conflicts with your statement.

good question and good point. Given the size of the america's and the differing issues and beliefs retained by the folks throughout the region, some bad is bound to happen. Add to that, the views of many brazilians and no doubt many other areas, that those with money or seen as having money (gringo tourists) must have got it through bad / brujo means. this would mean to them, that they are not of the same worth. In terms of ayahuasca, I'd imagine many tourists bring it on to themselves too. After all, this is the main reason some add toa (plain stupid). but gringo must have his chased effects, at any cost. with pharmacological views that dont mean anything pertaining to ayahuasca. Their ignorance leads to changes being made that are not in the best interests of anyone concerned. The result? deaths. What we can see is that western ignorance is mostly to blame. along with cultural clashes. full stop.

Is the incidence of abuses higher than in the general population? Hard to say, given much probably goes unreported. Humans in general need to change their ways.

I'll vouch for that. Shoving pigeons into peoples holes never ends well. You lube them up and they slip in OK, but when you try to pull them back out the feathers dig in & they get stuck.

Well, put that in your moral relativist entheobotanical laissez faire economic pipe and smoke it! I'd expand upon change's view by stating that not all priests and shamans are abusers (obviously), and that some are fantastic people. But, the nexus of money and spiritual power seems to attract abusers like flies on shit. Or maybe these conditions creates abusers. My point is that there seems to be a pretty regular occurrence of abuse in situations where there is a concentration of spiritual or religious power, especially where there is a simultaneous financial motive. This has happened across many different religious and spiritual organisations - the royal commission has shown the breadth of this. Santo Daime, shamans and ayahuasqueros are capable of being involved in the same sort of abuses. Not only can we hope that the institutions involved do a better job in responding than the mainstream churches have done thus far, but we can (and should) model good behaviour and help create expectations of what is acceptable.

I came across this last week and thought it was an interesting approach for people heading over there that want to read up a bit on other peoples experiences at different places. Tripadvisor for the psychedelic tourist I guess. http://ayaadvisor.org/

Maybe you could articulate your views better? Not all shamans or priests are abusers. Sweeping statements don't really contribute to quality discussion.

wow, this thread became utterly appalling super fast! change, that's just plain stupid mate. and offensive. perhaps it's time for you to CHANGE your ways

i think ill move this into chill space, i think it would be better there and more people will see it

Who'd have thought that people making money out of other peoples mental instability might try and take advantage of those same people.