Jump to content
The Corroboree
Change

Tbm & Tpm from seed

Recommended Posts

Hey everyone, im trying to collecting some information.

So im wonder, how many Tricho seeds have you germinated and how many monstrose cactus have popped up?

Im not interested in the results from seed with freaky parents, but rather from normal healthy parents.

So if you dont mind share your stats, im very interested to hear what kinda results have been achieved in the past.

Ive germinated approximately 500 of each so far finding nothing to weird.

Really interested to know whats happened to member who have germinated 1000's of seeds per year and are further along in the search for funky genetics then i.

:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Over the years I have grown thousands of trichocereus seeds and have never had a monstrose or crested seedling that came from normal parents. I have had a few albinos/variegated ones though

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a pach x ss02xss01 that is growing monstrose and a lumberjack x juuls giant that is growing cristate. I've sown about 3000 seeds, bit of a guess tbh....

Some crosses are more prone to mutations than others ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, i'm guessing to get monstrose seedlings you would need a parent that was semi-monstrose that could also flower.

I don't know much about the genetics of these plants, so i'm wondering if the trait is recessive? I have a werdermannianus seedling that is looking like a possible monstrose but it's hard to tell at this stage.

How did the monstrose plants come about to begin with if they aren't being germinated from seed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^DNA Mutation, possibly from Uv or other sources could change a plant into monstrose, which would then possibly be able to pass the trait onto the next generation.

I dont think the monstrose trait is recessive because Nitrogen's seems to cross monstrose cactus with wild type cactus which can results in monstrose children.

Before we can work out if its Dominant or Recessive we need to work out if its regulated by a gene or not

But im not expert, so its also very possible im wrong

Theoretically speaking errors in DNA could occur during the formation of gametes which could results in funky children from perfectly healthy parents

Thanks for all the replies, keep them coming :)

Edited by Change
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could also be a polygenic trait too eg. where the TPM genetic contribution is what pushes it past the threshold for phenotype variation, which makes it much harder to analyse compared with a simple monogenic trait.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got one TPC (icaros) from approx 1000 trich seeds of many varieties sown.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm thinking out the box here maybe a little far fetched but gamma rays... projected from far far away traveling in a singular direction altering states of biomasses and rna as it passes through and... just keeps on going???

way out there but gamma will affect dna and rna.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"The T. pachanoi "quasi-cristata" (TPQC) is a non-PC pachanoi type that grew crested after an apparent snail attack - maybe it is genetic in there somewhere and the snail attack caused it to come out, or maybe it is purely from the infection - regardless its a beautiful pachanoi though I haven't taken good care of it these past couple years.." Nitrogen's word.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33453&page=1

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

did I hear somewhere that putting your seeds in the freezer before planting could lead to higher mutation rates?

i don't remember exactly who said it or even if it was said,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^^yer i have read somewhere (cant remember the source) that putting plants in the freezing for short periods of time can possibly induced mutations

I wonder if there is something special about Nitrogens snails, if i was american, id be contacting him to see if i can get some of his snails to try and replicated the "quasi-cristata" :)

Personally, ive never seen a snail attack any of the cactus i take care off. But from now on, everytime i find a snail, its going to get placed on a mature tricho

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've had plenty of snail attacks on many plants. So far they have not caused any mutations. Perhaps the snail that attacked Nitrogen's plant slithered over from some toxic waste somewhere? :P)

I have one mutant that came from Sacred Succulent's "los gentiles" peruvianus seed. I consider it to be a real rarity as I've not heard of anyone else that has this crest.

My understanding has always been that mutants are fairly rare in wild collected seeds, but I had a cross that I sowed last year from Zelly with about 10% albinos. I believe it was ss02/01 x lumberjack, none of which are mutants....

???

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To my knowledge it is extremely rare to get monstrose seedlings from non-hybrid, non-monstrose parentage. It happens, it is just very rare. Also they are often more "fragile" then normal versions so I'm sure many die before being noticed, or are purposefully destroyed.

How did the monstrose plants come about to begin with if they aren't being germinated from seed?

Some (maybe all) were originally grown from seed. The monstrose T. schaferi was originally grown from seed. Others I think have just been around long enough that their origins have been forgotten or are recorded in obscure places.

Sports are the other possible origin. Occasionally a plant will grow a branch that displays traits different from the rest of the plant (called a sport). If the trait is desirable and is recognized by a breeder/cultivator it will often be propagated by cloning (only reliable way to reproduce the characteristic). One of the crested TBMs (there may be more than one clone) originated as a sport on a TBM at Sacred Succulents, and THIS variegated TBM was a sport off of TBM in Italy.

Seed grown monsters are just lucky (unlucky?) rolls of the genetic dice during fertilization. Sports may be caused by any number of things, none of which are well understood, if at all.

So, i'm guessing to get monstrose seedlings you would need a parent that was semi-monstrose that could also flower.

Not necessarily, but breeding with monstrose, semi-monstrose, variegated and crest parents (if they are able to flower) will yield a greater number of offspring with these traits relative to random mutations showing up in "normal" seed. Though the characteristics may not be passed on if they are phenetic (due to environment) rather than genetic. For example zelly has observed that most if not all semi-monstrose bridgesii will revert to normal growth when planted in the ground where they have ample root space.

Observing different crosses folks have been growing here over the years I have noticed that hybrids (both interspecific [between different species] and intergeneric [between different genera]) will tend to produce a greater number of freaks, for example Solaritea's terscheckii JS354 X peruvianus 'Jessica' which produced lots of variegates and albinos.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
most if not all semi-monstrose bridgesii will revert to normal growth when planted in the ground where they have ample root space.

I remember zelly saying that .. interesting... but that is common in at least a few monsters (that's why its regularly advised to cut off the normal growths off a monstrosa cactus, as the normal growth will usually absorve more energy from the roots than the crested/monstrosa parts... monstrosity is in some way inability to grow properly, so when the growing ability gets bigger with a bigger root system, the threshold of monstrosity is exceeded, or at least thats how I imagine it, hypothetically speaking....

and it shows more when they're grafted..

in bridgesiis in particular semi-monstrosa means both normal and monstrosous growth, with a variety of monstrosa to normal ratio.. Some bridgesis do a more intense rib play than others...they might be called semi-monstrosa by some... this not particularly wrong if the occurance is consistent... bridgesiis as a species in particular are interesting in this aspect exactly because they seem to have it in various degrees... maybe some bridgesi clones tend to have a less stable number of ribs than others .

TBMC will focus on penis growth when grafted , myrti monstrosa (not the elite clone) will rever to column when grafted and return to monster growth when rooted on its own.

Many crests and monsters revert after some time.. does this mean the monstrosity is phenetic and not genetic? I dont think so, it just means different degrees of monstrosity.

are the semi-monstrosa melted wax bridgesi, or the similar lotusland NOT semimonstrosas? Sure some columns revert and some are normal from the begining. but new monstrosa columns pup and normal columns tend to revert to monstrosa. And this is not your typical bridgesii rib play noted more commonly in some clones...

****

that was a very interesting post Kykeion and thanks.. didn't know exactly about the "sport" and how it can be cloned... this helps a lot...

the notion of sport might show that the penises I am propagating from grafts and normal specimens of bridgesii crest , will not (cannot) ever revert to crest.. In fact, I am really curious how the penises will grow, given I have grown the short penis for some 7 years, but was also wishfully hoping (?) some could also revert to crest too... seeing how this "sport" concept goes, I would assume there's not such hope?

what do you think?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many crests and monsters revert after some time.. does this mean the monstrosity is phenetic and not genetic? I dont think so, it just means different degrees of monstrosity.

Crestation/Monstrose rib play is a phenotype by definition.

the notion of sport might show that the penises I am propagating from grafts and normal specimens of bridgesii crest , will not (cannot) ever revert to crest..

The opposite is true (for the vast majority of cases).

I'm guessing that with almost all sports that actually have a different genotype than the mother plant, it should be the case that the mother plant was a chimera from the start e.g. most variegates or these:

01677693d7ae045d37c88a3a2ee055e3.jpg

10868217_682258135222360_525553612367837

13898110007_4a5398c6ea.jpg

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=ms.c.eJw9lQuOBCEIRG80QRDE~_19ssKA62WT2pZS~%3BdKTqFrkrr6StX4BXs34czXtYPd3PTuom0JeQ0~_tnmQ~%3Bv9fRzL~%3Bk027C3Pac9v~_B9hsNg77Mfff~%3BwfoXyzpsOJ~_I5wfOp0L~%3B4s~_0v2r~%3Btf9H~%3Bvd5mm5co7FmS27~_N~%3B7UQn9DfWg5dndz2nPbUnj~%3BLub8d8doVctR5O4xve77zssf~%3Bjmjm~_fPqbXHH3~_58hfnuRD~_N9XUR6BLkjfsx~%3BfHV8ZiQkY8xH~_~%3B5MM6HK~%3Bpri~%3Be17e2P~_zzr63uV~%3B7hBexvzpXfidTfcV~%3BoP2NdDe0eaqR~_DPfbDU959vx8H9M9eXug5~%3Bmown37kkBG~%3B0V~_N0~%3BNXDSKj3sb4c~%3BV5p66reeYxq3KP9~_SfmPcI9iMD8doyctUj7~_X85cv3sZBRv~_D7ytP2~_H6zAnjnPcmt66dn64yv8~%3B3qWxJ0xnsN9XP6v9L2~_R5q1KHzfd~%3BVulJf7U~%3BHX~%3B0Df~%3B7Z17Y~%3B~_d6eD2d9727~%3BfF8VOO4zn4v9UONI~%3Be2HeuPcD1VIcAS549WO17Xr4VOPYm3O4fveS5UvyKiPT33c1nuvlcMhv~%3Bf6ejis6KevPWwGFp7fyH8F9Zdh2VOyI76aq~_Fo~_0b7Z~_G8UD~_tK~%3BX76qVn9rXXAocum4x6yPSv8kK83Je~_Ff2oIgwf5G9Be4p4a2EPG~_pf34Fh7~%3BvO~_4F6yg7yblba73iF9nt~_RT~%3BGe5XZj74v6mO8X4V992P67bXP6nyN58foV7Bf~%3Bv6KZ78WXJw~%3B1K3ts75HMU~_L83D07YO3pz9unecN9jf7dTbmS~_7HrevH2Trv~_2r9Y~%3BRHZn~%3B5wT54bsjIz~_4hZzN1fB9eGsO39TP6~_3w~_XT6OZhnG964WNPnt~%3B4pn9r~%3BjjbwFu8i4H8nzeO~_1cDcZ8yTsdyL~%3BtzCGHfWpRzMcAv2zFwZmv~%3BIoOHj~_tL2gvUR~_oczvfR~%3BxQIdv3~_c8lOXnX8~%3B0~_wriUdrvfabcZ8Wt7~%3BwDKtHphA~-~-.bps.a.304592942988883.75036.100003145396931&type=3

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/with/13898110007/

Edited by Señor Jefferson
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difficulty with this topic is that there are a lot of unknowns and a lot of conjecture. The cause of monstrosity in one specimen may or may not be the same in another, and semi monstrosity may be completely unrelated to any full monstrosity. Plant genetics can be really complex, and there are lots of instances where they don't follow the "rules" as we understand them. We also know very little about cacti genetics in general, largely because there is not much of an economic drive to study them.

Señor Jefferson, you bring up an excellent point with chimerism, that I never thought of (I don't know why given that I know some variegates are chimeral).

the notion of sport might show that the penises I am propagating from grafts and normal specimens of bridgesii crest , will not (cannot) ever revert to crest. In fact, I am really curious how the penises will grow, given I have grown the short penis for some 7 years, but was also wishfully hoping (?) some could also revert to crest too... seeing how this "sport" concept goes, I would assume there's not such hope?

what do you think?

To my knowledge TBMs (long and short penis forms) do not revert to normal growth (at least I have never heard of it happening) indicating that their monstrosity is stable and not caused/triggered by growing conditions. This also suggests that they were most likely grown from seed which happened to have a genetic mutation causing the monstrose growth, and that they were not strange pups that developed on a normal plant (sports). The TBMC that Sacred Succulents sells occurred as a sport on their mother TBM plant which was eventually removed and propagated. In this case the crest is the sport, and any "penis" pup that it puts out would be considered a reversion, not sport. The likelihood of the reversion going crested again is probably pretty low given we don't know what caused the original sport to crest in the first place. It is not uncommon for a sport to revert to the original form, but I am unaware of any reverted sports "unreverting" and showing the sport characteristics again. So no, it is unlikely that the penises you mentioned will crest again.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Senor>>

Crestation/Monstrose rib play is a phenotype by definition.

phenotypes are determined in large by the genetic data. A phenotype is not just "a form of the plant in certain enviroment" I think.

Kykeion

The TBMC that Sacred Succulents sells occurred as a sport on their mother TBM plant which was eventually removed and propagated.

if this is true, I wonder which type of penis it was. Are there any photos of the mother? I think I have seen a pic of huge mother of ss.

So it seems a safe assumption that all penises (most common types) dont revert either to normal or crested growthm except one report from SS. So seeing how TBMCs regularly put out penis pups that DONT revert, but stay penis, I really wonder how the TBMC-derived penises I am making will eventually compare to the short form I have grown for a while.

I will admit I still haven't grasped the notion of sport fully, but it seems indeed like a mutation, thus the mention of a chimera. Could the crest mutation have started from a penis grafted on a bridgesii a la chimera?

Edited by sagiXsagi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1or 2 slightly monstrose from thousands of bridge raised.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if this is true, I wonder which type of penis it was. Are there any photos of the mother? I think I have seen a pic of huge mother of ss.

So it seems a safe assumption that all penises (most common types) dont revert either to normal or crested growthm except one report from SS. So seeing how TBMCs regularly put out penis pups that DONT revert, but stay penis, I really wonder how the TBMC-derived penises I am making will eventually compare to the short form I have grown for a while.

Their crest came from a short form tbm, I'm not sure if it was their giant mother plant though.

I am really curious about this too. I know of several people growing TBMC sourced from Bob Smiley (owns a nursery in Florida, US) which throws reverts that are longer and skinnier than the usual short TBM. This TBMC supposedly came from a long form TBM (I have no idea what the actual origins are). I have acquired several of these reverts to grow out and see what they look like when grown under the same conditions as my other TBMs. I have also let several reverts on my SS sourced TBMC grow to see if they resemble the short TBM they came from. Some folks think there may be more than one TBMC clone so I'm growing these out to test the idea.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nitrogen's magic beans surely have increased the amount of TPM in circulation. I wonder if any will show some unique montrose growth like spineless growth long term

From my private talks with collectors there are 2 TBMC(possibly more); one that reverts short TBM and another that reverts long TBM. There is also a seed grown TBM 'short?' owned by MostlyHarmless (UK) on the Shroomery. A nursery in the US that lists some small TMB short on eBay based on the listing they are a clone from his seed grown plant although am not sure if true.

From seed I've had 3 or 4 crested bridgesii seedlings emerge (non-monstrose I think) however they were all weak and died before or after grafting; a few variegated/albino seedlings as well. I am currently growing a TBC that started as a normal seedlings and after stalling for 2-3 months during growing season it had several pups and one of them became crested was sown late '13-early '14 I think. Was starting to doubt that it was bridgesii due to short spines on mother and grafts look very different, however they are starting to grow more bridgesii like; I assume my plant is bridesii x pachanoi/peruvianus. Next year should start showing more mature traits... can't wait.

There is a variegated bridgesii in existence and also a booby-like bridsgesii mutant (not sure if it retained the trait or where I saw these). I try to sow 1000 seeds every year and heavily curl the survivors and keep only a few in hope that it mutates and of 3-4k only have 1 to show as I sell/giveaway the normal seedlings I also tend to have a HIGH kill off rate of 1000 I manage to keep around 100 seedlings after a few months.

I'd love to own a terscheckii and a scopulicola crest.

Looking at photos this seedling has grown quite a lot within a year. I thought my plant was around 3 years old

November 2014 Pups before removing them under a year old (spines were large relative to size due to high sun and low water conditions)

post-14238-0-12830200-1451173967_thumb.j

Early January 2015 at around ~1 year old

post-14238-0-16224400-1451172493_thumb.j

Mid November 2015 at over 12 inches at ~2 years old; spines have started growing longer this past week

post-14238-0-49164000-1451172636_thumb.jpost-14238-0-05143700-1451172679_thumb.j

Mid November 2015 grafted on Cereus stock... the spines look VERY different

post-14238-0-11428300-1451173149_thumb.j

Was starting to doubt it was bridgesii due to spines but I think it may just be the growing conditions/age. I have giving small clones to a few people to see how it grows in different conditions. Grafts seem to bring out different (recessive) traits.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will swap tbmc for tbc in australia if available, hit me up if interested

I may be wrong but I remember a member on here having a TBC however think he sold it on eBay. Can't remember if he kept a clone or not. I'm in the US but do plan on sending one to AU at some time. Will talk to some that have successfully sent for some tips.

Edit: Found it

tipz is the one that had a TBC in AU http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=33835&hl=bridgessi#entry394101

Edited by modern.shaman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TBMC sourced from Bob Smiley (owns a nursery in Florida, US) which throws reverts that are longer and skinnier than the usual short TBM

bingo. that's what mine do. note that in one occasion a graft on a pretty strong and wide bridgesii stock resulted in pretty fat penises.

Kykeion, it seems we have more or less the same project in mind, cool!

I am convinced that there are two forms TBMC. Both Olive's and Philocacti's specimens seem to be the cresty, more spiny type, unlike mine. I suppose that's what the tbc & tbmc mystical oyster meant. Besides Zelly has also shown off the two forms side by side in the other bridgesi specific thread

it seems the TBC cresty/spiny might be the dominant clone in OZ. In europe its vice versa.

Edited by sagiXsagi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed tipz tbc! A beauty! Thanx mate :)

Edited by mystical oyster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From my private talks with collectors there are 2 TBMC(possibly more); one that reverts short TBM and another that reverts long TBM.

This is more or less my understanding as well. The SS TBMC supposedly throws infrequent short reverts (as would be expected since it came from a short form mother), however I have never personally seen an example of one (the jury is still out on what the revert pups from my SS TBMC will resemble). The other common TBMC seems to throw reverts more often, and they grow much longer than "normal" short TBM segments, though often skinnier than "normal" long from segments. I don't know if there is any morphological difference between these two clones when they are absent of reverts, but there are certainly different looking crests out there (such as the chunkier/fatter less spiny variety that ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ has and that I often see for sale from Europe on Ebay).

Kykeion, it seems we have more or less the same project in mind, cool!

I am convinced that there are two forms TBMC. Both Olive's and Philocacti's specimens seem to be the cresty, more spiny type, unlike mine. I suppose that's what the tbc & tbmc mystical oyster meant. Besides Zelly has also shown off the two forms side by side in the other bridgesi specific thread

it seems the TBC cresty/spiny might be the dominant clone in OZ. In europe its vice versa.

Indeed. I was dissatisfied with trying to compare photos of specimens from different collections in attempts to answer a number of questions I have about TBMs and TBMCs. So I have been collecting different specimens to grow out myself for comparison. One of my projects/questions is determining what reverts will look like when removed and given a chance to grow out (are they indistinguishable from other TBMs, or do they just look similar but obviously different).

I believe TBC above refers to a Trichocereus bridgesii crest that is not monstrose, simply crested.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×