Huasca experiences, Santo Daime in Aus

[cosmosuperball]

Just wondering about some people's huasca experiences, and if there is a santo daime in Australia. I realise that most people go overseas and are inducted into the native rituals surrounding the experience. Alot of people have told me that i need to go over to south America to have the proper experience. I dont have enough money for that so i was looking for a santo daime here.

[Yeti101]

Seeing as possessing or making Huasca or Ayahuasca is illegal in Australia, you might not get many people willing to incriminate themselves by answering your question.

I'm sure there are initiated members of Santo Daime in Australia. But the fact that the sacrament itself is highly illegal makes it something that can't be discussed in an open forum. Other aspects such as what members of this church believe and what their religious practices are, are both topics that people here might be happy to discuss at length.

Why your particular interest in Santo Daime? I was initially attracted by the use of Ayahuasca. But I was also put off by their Christian and Catholic influences.

[bℓσωηG]

Edited January 24, 2010 by blowng

[Torsten]

I don't think either SD or UdV initiate in australia, so you will probably have to go to Brazil anyway. There are non religious aya groups around the place though and you will eventually stumble upon them. Many people who are highly experienced with aya agree that aya has it's own instruction manual and hence a ritual setting as such is not important. Confusingly these are also usually people who are quite hung up on the ritual aspect - go figure. personally I think that aya does not require a ritual, but it does require experienced supervision. Also, feel free to start at low doses. Unlike smoked dmt [which should always be started at highest dose and worked backwards], aya reveals itself in stages so a progressive increase in dosage is a more natural progression.

[Chiral]

The one unusual thing I find about aya is all the hype...I mean I can't say too much as I have never been to SA and taken part in a proper ceremony or ritual, but at the end of the day when you break it all down it really is all about ingesting DMT and making it orally active via the MAOI...I mean you can do that at home in the comfort of your own surroundings if you wanted...by using extracted DMT and a carefully measured dose of Syrian rue one can potentially be doing the same thing..ie; making DMT active orally. I know there is a lot of talk about the vine and the ritual of the cooking and preparing etc, and the tobacco smoke warning off the bad spirits etc...all that coupled with being away in another country, and in one of the most beautiful places in the world... is likely to expand your mind more suggestively before the taking of the brew, is it not.... Seriously though if a chunk of old Caapi vine was brewed up with half a kilo of fresh chacruna leaves here in your backyard it couldn't be too much different could it...like I say we are just making DMT orally active and that is the trip is it not....I might sound simplistic to some but I like to break things down to reality as well as take into consideration things like suggestiveness and ceremony and ritual etc...When looking at the bigger picture each country in the world could have it's own aya clubs with it's own home grown ingredients and start their own traditions from beliefs they have learned whilst using the brew on previous sessions...I would quite like to see aya clubs pop up all over the world I think it would be great...can you imagine in 50 years Modern day Shamans from all over the world meeting together and discussing their ceremonies in detail and showing each others arts and textiles to one another. I imagine an Australian aya session out at the rock over sunset would be amazing.

H.

[hutch]

I read somewhere just recently that many pagan groups, and there are shit loads in Australia are becoming more involved with aya and are using it within their ceremonies so maybe you could start there.

Cheers

Hutch

[apothecary]

The one unusual thing I find about aya is all the hype...I mean I can't say too much as I have never been to SA and taken part in a proper ceremony or ritual, but at the end of the day when you break it all down it really is all about ingesting DMT and making it orally active via the MAOI..

H.

If the case is so simplistic as that, please explain the tribes which use no chacruna, only aya vine in their ceremonies?

[Chiral]

If the case is so simplistic as that, please explain the tribes which use no chacruna, only aya vine in their ceremonies?

I've only seen that on one particular episode of a Bruce Parry Doco...where they consumed absolutely copiuos amounts of straight Caapi vine brew with no chacruna...Bruce said it had no effect on him...mind you the way it was taken in such large volumes and the amount of purging well to tell the truth I didn't even know those sorts of brews are consumed...but like I say, Bruce said it had no effect. There are trip reports on Erowid of Syrian Rue extract being a psychedelic on it's own at large dose's ...the reports are that it is not a pleasant experience on it's own. To answer your question I can't explain what you ask...simple....if there is no chacruna in the brew then no DMT visuals will be experienced.

H.

[Torsten]

Hunab, your inexperienced outside view is far too simplistic for such a complex pharmacological combination.

1) Pure caapi brews are quite common in the amazon, but generally not requested by the aya tourists and hence they don't feature well in the literature and online hype. Westerners like the sparkle and colour of dmt, but in fact many shaman regard this as a distraction.

2) Chacruna leaves are by themselves antidepressants. No mechanisms has been proposed for this.

3) Caapi is by itself extremely mood lifting in small doses. In large doses it is very introspective, meditative and mentally healing. No tripping required.

4) Many other plants are added to the brews, ranging from stimulants to specific medicinals, including ibogaine relatives. There are literally hundreds of additives and we only have the most basic understanding of their additional effects.

5) different caapi strains have different effects - as one would expect from such a pharmacologically complex plant.

6) many of the alkaloids in caapi are somewhat unstable and can convert themselves to other alkaloids with different activity if treated in certain ways. Drying, , pounding and boiling can all have a variety of chemical effects on the alkaloid profile. I would not be too quick to dismiss certain preparatory rituals.

7) peganum is nothing like caapi. Peganum has a dirty, toxic and sedative side effect, while caapi is uplifting and physically pleasant [despite the nausea of large doses].

8) acacia dmt is nothing like chacruna dmt. for an experienced person there are more difference than similarities, even for the smoked form. This is amplified in the oral form.

9) The icaros are soothing and help to guide through the dream world as it unfolds. I get similar guidance from certain western music, but it takes a while to recognise this important tool and to find the music that suits one individual. And if nothing else they distract from the puking around you in a group setting.

There's more, but I hope you get the idea from these main points.

[incognito]

doing ayahuasca solo has always been the way to go for me.

group settings always seem to freak me out!!

smoking dmt is incomparable to aya.

i would love one day to do aya in a proper ritual setting, with someone who is very experienced (and sane lol) who provides the icaros and guides you through the journey. unfortunately alot of aussie 'curanderos' ive met are quite questionable in their character and ethics IMO. I wouldnt want to be involved in such circles, they scare the bejesus out of me!

I believe someone already mentioned does good work, he has a good soul.

There are some groups springing up in WA that are doing some great work with the best of intentions. Really good people.

All this said is my opinion by the way.

being fairly experienced with solo sessions, the aya has always guided me and been rather gentle with me(providing the music and teaching teaching songs, consoling) , and would have to be the most positive and healing entheogenic experiences that i have had.

I dont think i will EVER smoke dmt again, changa or spice. I cant see the benefit for myself, just scares the shit out of me!! to sudden, terrifying and unworkable. Im just like "shiiiit make this stoooooop!!"

i can also attest that spice made from viridis is a completely different experience for me than spice from acacia.

For me its a lot more feminine and gentle, minus all the terror i experienced on acacia spice.

try and stay away from pharmahuasca IMO, its really yucky.

and as T has stated, start your doses low. Low doses are freaking amazing as well, and you kind of learn your way.

Edited June 27, 2009 by incognito

[Chiral]

Hunab, your inexperienced outside view is far too simplistic for such a complex pharmacological combination.

1) Pure caapi brews are quite common in the amazon, but generally not requested by the aya tourists and hence they don't feature well in the literature and online hype. Westerners like the sparkle and colour of dmt, but in fact many shaman regard this as a distraction.

2) Chacruna leaves are by themselves antidepressants. No mechanisms has been proposed for this.

3) Caapi is by itself extremely mood lifting in small doses. In large doses it is very introspective, meditative and mentally healing. No tripping required.

4) Many other plants are added to the brews, ranging from stimulants to specific medicinals, including ibogaine relatives. There are literally hundreds of additives and we only have the most basic understanding of their additional effects.

5) different caapi strains have different effects - as one would expect from such a pharmacologically complex plant.

6) many of the alkaloids in caapi are somewhat unstable and can convert themselves to other alkaloids with different activity if treated in certain ways. Drying, , pounding and boiling can all have a variety of chemical effects on the alkaloid profile. I would not be too quick to dismiss certain preparatory rituals.

7) peganum is nothing like caapi. Peganum has a dirty, toxic and sedative side effect, while caapi is uplifting and physically pleasant [despite the nausea of large doses].

8) acacia dmt is nothing like chacruna dmt. for an experienced person there are more difference than similarities, even for the smoked form. This is amplified in the oral form.

9) The icaros are soothing and help to guide through the dream world as it unfolds. I get similar guidance from certain western music, but it takes a while to recognise this important tool and to find the music that suits one individual. And if nothing else they distract from the puking around you in a group setting.

There's more, but I hope you get the idea from these main points.

Definitely...thanks for that...I mean that is the sort of info that is highly informative...like I said I have no experience with these brews over there, but wanted to attract someone who could enlighten me as to why they are so special....I was thinking why are these brews seemingly exclusive to SA when the ingredients are available to us to grow.

I had taken into consideration the age of vine and also the addition of chaliponga as opposed to viridis...a plant which we here have very little knowledge of.

One question that I have always wondered is that do traditional SA shaman actually understand the brews from a pharmacological viewpoint or would it be safe to say that most of what they understand is wrapped up in a mystical belief passed on from elders etc.

H.

[mu!]

Unlike smoked dmt [which should always be started at highest dose and worked backwards], aya reveals itself in stages so a progressive increase in dosage is a more natural progression.

How do the two, having the same constituents (granted slightly different mechanism of action), differ in the way that they should be approached regarding dosage for the initiate?

[Torsten]

How do the two, having the same constituents (granted slightly different mechanism of action), differ in the way that they should be approached regarding dosage for the initiate?

they do not have the same ingredients. smoked dmt by itself without MAOI is a very different experience.

smoked dmt is like a near death experience. time flashes in an instant and there is no time to develop any emotions as it takes longer for the brain to react than it does to move onto the next scene. It's all over in 2 minutes. There is almost no control in smoked dmt. It is also very euphoric and one of the big attributes of pure smoked dmt [ie no MAOI included] is the amazement you will experience. If you start with low doses you will learn to control some of these aspects and in my opinion this is undesirable and can never be undone. Learning more about the smoked dmt experience after the 'deep end' experience is different than working your way up, which is why this is the only substance where I recommend to start at the high end and work down [or up again].

Oral dmt [with MAOI] is more like shrooms. Emotions develop and you get time to savour or work with the experience. Time is slower than normal time.

There are preparations that try and capture the middle ground, such as MAOI inhibited yopo snuffs and MAOI inhibited smoked dmt [changa]. They may suit some people. personally I feel they remove the uniqueness of smoked dmt, mess with the time compaction, and also don't provide much time to work with the experience. ie these preparations seem to enhance the entertainment aspect, but diminish the therapeutic aspects of the smoked vs oral extremes.

[naja naja]

If the case is so simplistic as that, please explain the tribes which use no chacruna, only aya vine in their ceremonies?

"For several years there has been considerable speculation that the pre-Columbian Maya may have used a psychoactive ritual drink that was an ayahuasca analog. It has been conjectured that the Mayans used a Banisteriopsis species that grows in the Mesoamerican lowlands in combination with a source of DMT to make "mayahuasca" (Hyman 1994). It is entirely possible that Banisteriopsis miricata was used for this purpose, as its stems contain harmine and its leaves DMT. In other words, it is possible that an ayahuasca analog was made from just one plant."

link

Edited June 27, 2009 by naja naja

[hutch]

they do not have the same ingredients. smoked dmt by itself without MAOI is a very different experience.

smoked dmt is like a near death experience. time flashes in an instant and there is no time to develop any emotions as it takes longer for the brain to react than it does to move onto the next scene. It's all over in 2 minutes. There is almost no control in smoked dmt. It is also very euphoric and one of the big attributes of pure smoked dmt [ie no MAOI included] is the amazement you will experience. If you start with low doses you will learn to control some of these aspects and in my opinion this is undesirable and can never be undone. Learning more about the smoked dmt experience after the 'deep end' experience is different than working your way up, which is why this is the only substance where I recommend to start at the high end and work down [or up again].

Oral dmt [with MAOI] is more like shrooms. Emotions develop and you get time to savour or work with the experience. Time is slower than normal time.

There are preparations that try and capture the middle ground, such as MAOI inhibited yopo snuffs and MAOI inhibited smoked dmt [changa]. They may suit some people. personally I feel they remove the uniqueness of smoked dmt, mess with the time compaction, and also don't provide much time to work with the experience. ie these preparations seem to enhance the entertainment aspect, but diminish the therapeutic aspects of the smoked vs oral extremes.

I was wondering about that myself and would never have imagined that that would be the reasoning behind it. Fantastic information that trainees like me need to know. Is there really that much you don't know about these subjects? Have you thought of writing a book?

I'd buy it.....

Hutch

[Torsten]

The field of ethnobotany and in particular ethnopharmacology is evolving so rapidly that any book would almost instantly be a historical perspective rather than cutting edge. I think the internet is a great way to keep these ideas evolving and updated. It's also a great way present balanced information as I am sure not everyone will agree with my perspective and such alternate views can be posted alongside.

[G*P]

Just wondering about some people's huasca experiences, and if there is a santo daime in Australia. I realise that most people go overseas and are inducted into the native rituals surrounding the experience. Alot of people have told me that i need to go over to south America to have the proper experience. I dont have enough money for that so i was looking for a santo daime here.

Yes there is a Santo Daime in Sydney, and some more in Melbourne who trained under authentic systems..

To get details, i'd have to reconect with a stalker ex.. and im sorry but i cant do that.

Seek and u shall find:)

[shruman]

http://www.santodaimeaustralia.org/

Got a spare $60?

[mu!]

they do not have the same ingredients. smoked dmt by itself without MAOI is a very different experience.

oh ok i was assuming changa here rather than straight xtal, which i find to lack the depth of changa but as you mentioned the euphoria is higher and there's a general overall feeling of it being cleaner

Edited June 28, 2009 by mu.

[planthelper]

I dont think i will EVER smoke dmt again, changa or spice. I cant see the benefit for myself, just scares the shit out of me!! to sudden, terrifying and unworkable. Im just like "shiiiit make this stoooooop!!"

i feel the same, smoking dmt is often very scary, but funny enough, smoking dmt on top of an aya experience will manifest itselfe like the kind force.

a weak aya brew and than topping up with smoking dmt is a way i would recommand.

aya can be quite as scary as smoked dmt, only difference is it will last hours not minutes...

according to my own findings caapi can produce halus, but never any color or shapes, caapi halus look like pulsating concentric rings around (real)objects.

i agree with incognito about taking aya just alone, it's the best, but one has to be sure not to overdose.

[Chiral]

I found in the past to slow down the smoked x-tal experience you need to do consecutive pipes...if you can bear it smoke another pipe 5-7mins after the other and you build up and expectation and are ready for it...also when you get to the say 5th or 6th pipe after say half an hour you develop the most wonder acid like afterglow with beautiful OEV's that last for 20 mins or so...just smashing into hyperspace once is an ordeal, thats why a few of us have sat down and done 5-6 in a row and chatted about it in between...makes the experience more palatable and clearer.

H.

[folias]

I've been doing sessions quite openly in Australia for seven years now... its something more people should be doing. There are more and more people doing it... the D-Man tends to predominate in this work in this country, but more and more people are getting it together and engaging with this challenge and learning relevant to THIS culture.

Legally, I suspect it is the same as in England, where ayahausca is endemic, but largely pertaining to semi-charlatan figures who profess much, but true healing and inner work seems besides the point, lost in the novelty of visions and the promise of shamanic "power"... it is that... this is something that law enforcement does not seem to be consider a threat to the health or stability of society enough to challenge directly.

Some of the people doing it now in this country, would actually LIKE legal attention, so they can make legal cases... whether or not law enforcement has any real interest in a bunch of people sitting around and drinking a tea made from sth american vine often combined with other plants which normally contain DMT is another matter.

This is deep and powerful work, not without its pitfalls and troubles... very confronting and will take you to the most raw and intense places within and without.

I believe in an organic and natural and personal approach to taking this medicine, and also that the ayahuasca vine is a key component to the healing work... work with the rue can be used to travel and experience, but the vine is pretty primary its power to heal and integrate on so many different levels (most of which are as yet typcailly unrecognised in the west!)

Although, despite all the brouhahha about "ayahuasca", I do believe, like Uncy Terrence said, that 5 dried grams of Mushrooms PLUS, taken alone in a dark room is about the most effective way to break through the veil and engage with the mystery... this is not heroic... in this day and age, but closed to being necessary if you at all want to *make it* in this world.

Julian.

[t st tantra]

I found in the past to slow down the smoked x-tal experience you need to do consecutive pipes...if you can bear it smoke another pipe 5-7mins after the other and you build up and expectation and are ready for it...also when you get to the say 5th or 6th pipe after say half an hour you develop the most wonder acid like afterglow with beautiful OEV's that last for 20 mins or so...just smashing into hyperspace once is an ordeal, thats why a few of us have sat down and done 5-6 in a row and chatted about it in between...makes the experience more palatable and clearer.

H.

or just predose with carthagensis!

t s t .

[dhriman]

doing ayahuasca solo has always been the way to go for me.

group settings always seem to freak me out!!

smoking dmt is incomparable to aya.

i would love one day to do aya in a proper ritual setting, with someone who is very experienced (and sane lol) who provides the icaros and guides you through the journey. unfortunately alot of aussie 'curanderos' ive met are quite questionable in their character and ethics IMO. I wouldnt want to be involved in such circles, they scare the bejesus out of me!

I believe someone already mentioned does good work, he has a good soul.

There are some groups springing up in WA that are doing some great work with the best of intentions. Really good people.

All this said is my opinion by the way.

being fairly experienced with solo sessions, the aya has always guided me and been rather gentle with me(providing the music and teaching teaching songs, consoling) , and would have to be the most positive and healing entheogenic experiences that i have had.

I dont think i will EVER smoke dmt again, changa or spice. I cant see the benefit for myself, just scares the shit out of me!! to sudden, terrifying and unworkable. Im just like "shiiiit make this stoooooop!!"

i can also attest that spice made from viridis is a completely different experience for me than spice from acacia.

For me its a lot more feminine and gentle, minus all the terror i experienced on acacia spice.

try and stay away from pharmahuasca IMO, its really yucky.

and as T has stated, start your doses low. Low doses are freaking amazing as well, and you kind of learn your way.

 

Wounded healer, I am new to the forum is there any way we can talk on message centre rather than forum please.

Dhriman

[3lliot]

hello, new member here with ponderings & interests in this area. could someone brave please PM me?

post edited by mod.

Edited June 19, 2012 by planthelper
selfincrimination