the notion of "plants for profit"

[qualia]

ok, i kind of started it so here goes,

the whole notion of "no profit for plants" is weird to me. it seems some people see plants as a "spirit" which would be offended if people were to make a living out of propagating them. i mean, seriously, if there were such a thing as "plant spirits", would they really care about the intricacies of human trade relations? even if they did think like humans (and to be frank that's impossible), would they care if a human was making a profit off of distributing them? it seems to me, taking life at face value and assuming that organisms will reproduce as readily as they can, then it's immaterial whether or not the human notion of "money" is involved in spreading their progeny. i just think that sometimes people humanise the plants they grow and don't really recognise that they are an entirely different organism. so if someone says "profit from plants is evil", then that's entirely a human creation, and has as much validity as a "profit from plants is OK" attitude.

so let me flip the script.

if a creature comes along and discovers that humans have a chemical which they desire for their spiritual/recreational culture, how comfortable are you with allowing them to harvest you for that chemical? will you say "yeah that's awesome breed and harvest humans for [the chemical] i want you to get high from our bodies". will you be ok with that with or without a profit? i mean, this superior being is breeding and harvesting humans for a chemical they deem is important to their spirituality, so as long as they're spreading human progeny it's OK? is it not OK if their doing it for profit in their currency?

questions,

[chilli]

the plant spirits people speak to are aspects of their own consciousness, like all gods they tell people what they want to hear

when you hear someone saying stuff like that look for the tacit message: i am better than others

if there really are plant spirits i know what they want: death of all humans

having said that, animism is cool as long as people don't take it too literally

Edited October 19, 2012 by chilli

[Foo]

Meh, nothing wrong with free plants!! :D

[Stillman]

I think if you have the skills and environment to grow something that someone else wants and is willing to part cash with you should be able too without any guilt. And if you want to give it away good for you too. At the end of the day just about anything can be a commodity all it takes is someone to want it. I read somewhere how people aren't happy that they don't get enough thanks from fee giveaways. Isn't that an expectation of payment? Praise in lew of cash? So what is really free?

Edited October 19, 2012 by Stillman

[bogfrog]

When you offer something for free, you should be prepared to accept the reality that some people may not take the courtesy to say thank you, and thats just a reality of life.

It does not mean what you did for that person is any less valuable, they simply lack an awareness of the required social ettiquite for recieving such gifts.

In time, everyone who sticks around long enough comes to understand the ettiquite and gives back what they can, and so the process continues.

We just have to be aware many people are just beginning on the road to their new way of life and what comes across to us as 'bad manners' is simply a valuable lesson they are yet to learn.

Turning against them for such ignorance could turn them away, and we dnt want that, we just want them to learn.

As for growing plants for profit, i think its perfectly reasonable to want something in return for your efforts, but i draw the line at making your living from other people's addictions :-(

[whitewind]

if a creature comes along and discovers that humans have a chemical which they desire for their spiritual/recreational culture, how comfortable are you with allowing them to harvest you for that chemical? will you say "yeah that's awesome breed and harvest humans for [the chemical] i want you to get high from our bodies". will you be ok with that with or without a profit? i mean, this superior being is breeding and harvesting humans for a chemical they deem is important to their spirituality, so as long as they're spreading human progeny it's OK? is it not OK if their doing it for profit in their currency?

 

I like this because it enables us to directly appreciate our own behaviour. No matter how peculiar a comment like this may appear, in fact the weirder it appears, the less insight we have into our own behaviour. Without perspective from another angle, in this example from something directly opposite to our behaviour, there is no room for empathy or insight. This lack of empathy for other beings is, right at the heart of unconcern for our environment and directly accounts for our inherently unfair hierarchical system and continual physical conflict.

In answer to the question, I believe growing and distributing plants for excessive personal gain is probably where we need to ask the questions, as it is imperative to our own survival that we need to consume them.

EDIT weird formatting

Edited October 20, 2012 by whitewind

[goneski]

maybe the 'plant spirits' are just as shallow as humans and gloat over how much they were sold / purchased for.

[rahli]

Increasing the value of plants may not only be used to increase profit but also used to increase survival of rarer specimen. People that are willing to pay serious dollars are likely to take their new prize seriously, so you can increase the chance of your plants going to a good home where they are looked after and survive to reproduce and find more good homes. Eventually they won't be so rare and folks will be giving them away.

[mutant]

I never understood this , particularly for magical plants.

In the past

I have spend serious amounts of $ for buying weed or other types of drugs

I have spent serious amounts of $ to buy wild edible mushrooms

I have spent serious amounts of $ to buy cacti locally, from europe and elsewhere.

Why would me getting paid for offering the same or similar services for which I have willingly paid for in the past NOT be OK?

In answer to the question, I believe growing and distributing plants for excessive personal gain is probably where we need to ask the questions, as it is imperative to our own survival that we need to consume them.

then you got a problem with excessive personal gain and not selling -plants or anything- for [some] profit.

and I agree, I dont understand people who want excessive personal gain. I find it boring needless and anti-life. The story of capitalism

[Torsten]

Before I started SAB I was trading plants for whatever anyone had to offer - which was mostly plants and herbs, but sometimes food etc. Eventually I had everything I wanted so the trades became very unattravtive to me. There are only so many parsley plants one wants to trade for salvia plants before the novelty runs out ;) So at first I just let the trades flounder by not responding. Some people were rather persistent and eventually after offering me all the stuff I already had simply offered me cash. I had no need for this either at the time, but figured at least then i can get what i want for it. This kinda snowballed and within a year SAB was born. It was never planned that way nor has our perspective changed much,. As long as the nursery pays for itself [including the wages of anyone who works in it whether that's me or someone else] it just keeps plodding along. Over the years many people have complained about the idea of making money from plants, but I just think back to those early days and at what would have been the alternatives. There are two:

1) deny trades to people who have nothing interesting to trade [many collectors actually do this and I find it quite frustrating].

2) spend 40h/week working in the nursery while giving everything away for free.

Neither of these make any sense.

This concept works at every level. Whether for a $4 plant that cost $4 to produce or a $40 plant that cost $40 to produce. And then there are the plants that cost much more to produce, but didn't sell, so who pays for those?

I personally don't have a problem with the concept of money. It serves a convenient purpose [as explained above]. It is how many people use money that makes it so yucky. To me it is something that needs to keep in circulation just like any other perishable good. So rather than trading bags of wheat we just trade bundles of money. It's the hoarding that corrupts people.

[folias]

Plant spirits are just obvious and evident to most all of the serious people who work with psychoactive plants. Most all cultures who seriously work with plants talk of plant spirits as well. It is largely just westerners who are the heathen unbelievers!

I say good luck to anyone who can make money distributing plants to people who will pay for them! They are a hell of a lot better than the synthetic medicine that is predominant in western society.

Julian.

[mutant]

Julian

this kind of belief you're so fond of is appropriate for certain kinds of people, you do realise this huh?

and that there are people who might be serious researchers of those plants, and still be unbelievers at the same time, huh?

Anyways, there's also a belief that trading the so called 'sacred' plants for money is sacrilege to the plant spirits and this is what makes it bad. Doesn't make sense since I dont believe in plant spirits. If you see those plants as knowledge, and/or that anyone should be able to access it at least once, then the point of view is different. Maybe worth of a discussion.

there are lot of levels in this

its good it seems we are all realists each one from his point of view

[DarkSpark]

And then there are the plants that cost much more to produce, but didn't sell, so who pays for those?

 

A very good point. People are quick to jump on how absurd prices are, but don't think about all that goes into getting a plant ready for sale, or all the plants lost in this process. For the hobby gardener it may not be so extreme but to do medium-large scale propagation and growing on requires much planning. and in the case of smaller niche nurseries such as SAB it is even harder as they are offering such a diverse range of stock, much of which requires extremely varied conditions meaning more time must be spent to ensure that moisture levels etc are not to high/low in the varied areas.

----some things to consider----

- Developing a suitable environment(building greenhouse, irrigation, hot house, hydroponic systems etc)

- ensuring you fall within australian codes of practice and OH&S guidelines(creating SOPs, hazard/risk assessments etc)

- Purchasing materials (dirt, pots, trays, tray stands, shelves, pesticides, nutrients etc)

- purchasing/propagation of stock (developing propagation & growing on plans, actually propagating, likely losing a pretty decent percentage and having to dispose of soil/wash pots(all ads time to the task)also any unhealthy looking stock can't go to sale and often gets turfed rather than attempting to save)

- storing the stock in your greenhouse (effectively each section of space on the land is worth at the very least SOME of the rent, as such the plants cost x per week rent, x per week water, x per week nutrients which starts to add up)

- maintenance/wages (staff need to be paid! At the very least nurseries,even small scale ones, need to make enough to pay bills, buy supplies & pay staff)

--assuming you are growing for example 500 trichocereus cacti requiring say 3 years to be at sale size. on average in excess of 2 hours a week will be spent doing assorted tasks with these. be it directly with the plants or maintenance on equipment.

hours a week x weeks in a year x years in growing on plan = total man hours x hourly rate = total labour cost

2 x 52 x 3 = 312 x 20 = $6240

keep in mind there are still many more costs assosciated such as electricity, water, soil, pots, etc. The figure may be slightly high for trichos as it wouldnt take 2 hours a week to care for them but i hope this helps outline how quickly the expenses build up, even if it is just trying to pay oneself and break even. This hasn't even included any of the other costs assosciated, just purely labour. understandably some things are sold far overpriced, but as Torsten has said, who pays for those who dont sell.

[/offtopic]

As for the spirits of plants, if they didn't appreciate what we were doing i am sure in some way they would have vocalised this! Well maybe not vocalised, thats a bit extreme, but made it known that they aren't happy.

[myco]

this thread is wack

thre is nothing wrong with paying for plants or selling them

anyone who thinks otherwise is not really thinking

use some common sense and think about the time money and effort that has gone into growing or obtaining that plant

i'd love to see how easily youd be able to get hold of the things you wanted if all nurseries closed down and everyone who sold plants stopped

good luck

stop expecting things for fukin free its ridiculous

unfortunately in this day and age money makes the world go round we dont have much of a choice everyone needs money

everyone has bills everyone has to eat

how bout your phone or your computer your using to be on here right now

do you think the company that made it should just be handing them out for free

wat a joke

use some common sense there is reasons things cost money

[nabraxas]

dunno about anything else but buying or selling the common psychedelic mushroom

(& i mean people that go out pick a kilo to try & sell, rather than people growing to sell)

doesn't sit well w/me.

these shrooms are meant to be shared w/out thought for profit, that's why they're not

rare.

[mutant]

^^^^

hmmmmm

its not totally Ok with me, people selling magic mushrooms, but it always depends on who you're selling. Plus, what else you're doing for the mushroom.

If some friend dudes [hypothetically speaking] would buy a couple of doses of acid anyway, then why shouldn't someone sell them Psilocybes, and this in lower than acid price, if they got some to spare?

Also, if we are talking about a seemingly rare woodlover species, and a person collects several doses, then the dude sends away spore prints [for free or for some trade] in all-over the globe to knowledgeable people that will attempt to cultivate it

then, is this dude entitled to sell a couple of doses, since he's definately not gonna eat the wholoe lot in a year ?

also, if someone sees it as recreation mostly, I feel its more ok to sell to them

.

if they are really seriously into it, I am inclined to feel giving them a couple of doses for free is more appropriate.

It kind of feels like I felt for my demo-cassettes some 15 years ago. Gave away lots of them for free, but you know, it had a price, I wanted those who are interested to get it, and not everyone taking it, just becasue its free, y'know.

[qualia]

dunno about anything else but buying or selling the common psychedelic mushroom

(& i mean people that go out pick a kilo to try & sell, rather than people growing to sell)

doesn't sit well w/me.

these shrooms are meant to be shared w/out thought for profit, that's why they're not

rare.

you see i don't get this, if people are willing to pay money for it then whats the problem? no ones forcing them to buy it (unlike the capitalist control of essential utilities)

there's nothing stopping them going out and picking their own.

edit: do you feel that way about edible field mushrooms being sold in the market?

Edited November 1, 2012 by qualia

[nabraxas]

hmmmmm

 

don't you hummm me.

i did say it only "didn't sit right " w/me; it's not like i'm married to it.

in the past i've been known to buy & barter shrooms; but it always

felt best giving them away, especially at parties.

[mutant]

sorry man, "hmmmmm" was genuine, meant as a symbol for "hmmm, let me think it for a bit" - even though I do have thought a bit about it a bit but I am still baffled nowdayzzzz.

I apologise for sounding like a jerk, I was certainly not adressing to you, just theorizing.....

I do agree that with some plants, like cacti, or magic mushrooms, I do have an inhibition myself. The hmmm was genuine....

but i am a man of freedom, longing for autonomy, cannot shy away in some 'sacred' theme. just me.

but yeah, psychedelics should have been incorporated in sociaty to make it better, not being illegal. not being sold overpriced due to illegal status by anyone.

btw what zodiac sign are you nabraxas? me sagitarius

[nabraxas]

i was joshing, no offence taken or intentended

Not that i'm really into all that, but i'm a Taurean.

[PositiveHAL]

I've only got 1 thing to say...

[incognito]

Bah u freaking hippies people buying/selling/trading PlAnts is certainly not a recent thing.

I have no problem with money whatsoever if u don't like urs pm me and I'll happily take it off ur hands

But seriously, what's wrong with making some ca$h?

Edited November 4, 2012 by incognito

[nabraxas]

you see i don't get this, if people are willing to pay money for it then whats the problem? no ones forcing them to buy it (unlike the capitalist control of essential utilities)

there's nothing stopping them going out and picking their own.

edit: do you feel that way about edible field mushrooms being sold in the market?

like i said, i'm not married to it; however if the primary reason some goes out to pick mushrooms is to make a profit;

then i personally think that's not cool.

i don't have a problem w/people selling stuff they've grown

but someone "dealing" in wild shrooms seems to be turning a generous visionary gift into a commodity to be wrapped

into foil bullets & sold by the gram.

some people sell pond weed for a dollar a tub on aquarium e-bay, i have no problem w/that or edible field mushrooms

sold in supermarkets.

[PositiveHAL]

but someone "dealing" in wild shrooms seems to be turning a generous visionary gift into a commodity to be wrapped

into foil bullets & sold by the gram.

 

one mans 'visionary gift' is another mans street drug

meh

[qualia]

just wondering, do shamans charge money for ceremony's? (genuine question)