Kids or No Kids

[watertrade]

Hi everyone,

I know a lot of folk here have kids... and love it. In fact I don't know many (any) parents that don't like having children.

The problem is, my partner of 11 years has told me she wants to have kids. Up until about two years ago we both agreed that we didn't want to have kids, and then I guess the hormones kicked in and she has told me to make a decision. Kids or no kids. Basically it comes down to the fact that she can't live her life without them and she needs a donor. Wether that be me or someone else. She didn't put it in such harsh terms but essentially that’s what it comes too.

And would it be fair to deny someone of something that fulfils their life and makes them complete?

And then there is me… I quite like kids, but I just don’t see myself as a parent, I don’t want to have to deal with everything that comes with them. And I have my own unresolved issues with dependence/children. I’m just getting over my own childhood let alone dealing with someone else’s!

And would it be fair to have children if your heart is not really in it? Will I, deep down in my cold dark heart resent the fact my life changed into something I didn’t want it to?

To complicate things, for health reasons we can’t accidentally have children - it needs to be a 6/9 month preparation before we even try to get pregnant.

I should have got the snip when I had the chance a couple of years ago!

It’s a hard one, and no matter how much I drink the answer doesn't present itself.

Edited April 28, 2009 by watertrade

[gilligan]

I'd be drinking too... :S

There's no reason you have to grow up to have kids... some of the fun you are having now just slows down for a few years (well, at least it has til now, i'm hoping once my two get to about 4 or so some of the fun comes back )

You wouldn't know if you resented having kids until you had them, and i'm pretty sure that you'll see the first peanut pic on the scan, and then feel the first kick of the kid in the womb, and you'll be hooked. My life got more meaning than i ever thought it could when i first saw Harper, then Jarrah came along, and it got even better... To each their own, obviously, and they can be a pain in the arse at times, but they are you, and you are them.

It depends on who you are, and why you would want the kids. Or,as the case may be, why you dont want the kids... look deep inside to find these answers, grasshopper. Are you here to love and be loved by your own blood, or are you here to do it alone and die wondering? I guess it's a melodramatic way to look at it, but do you want to ever get to the stage you cant have kids, and then regret it forever? Or have your missus leave, or have her have someone else's kid?

Big questions all of them...

Only you can answer them...

Good luck with the conundrum, WT...

[mac]

Many children come along without either parent wanting, planning or expecting it, & IMO the majority of people who have not planned to have kids But did would never regret it once they have a child

Its a wonderful thing being a parent & watching your child, children grow, I think it has made me a better person & couldn't imagine where i would be if i did not have my kids (id more than likely still be doing the same old shit i did in my teens & early 20s, or addicted to various substances or even 6 feet under )

Thats just my thoughts

Children are the best thing that has happened to me even though im now only a weekend dad & far from perfect or even a perfect parent, but the joy i get from my children nothing could make up for that

Edited April 28, 2009 by mac

[hebrew]

yeah man i never watned kids when i was younger but i would never look back now, i got two great children, they are so much fun and i love them with my whole life, i never planned ot have children it just happened, and i dont have much family here well no family, and it is hard work being a parent, very ahrd at time but that is all overshadowed by the joy i have spending time with my children. we got two more kids coming too, twins, i didnt want anymore, things were starting to get good you know no arse to wipe, they brush their teeth and feed themselves, things are good, but then we get pregnant and took me a while to get used to the idea, then we found its twins and that was a shock, but to be honest i am excited, its going to be hard work, and things will be a push to my limits but its going to be a great ride too. i love my children and would never look back

its hard to know what it is like before the fact but trust inyoruself you will make a good dad. all we need is love

[Foton]

First of all let me say that I am still only young and have no kids... but perhaps i can add a little something.

And would it be fair to deny someone of something that fulfils their life and makes them complete?

I think you can have a fulfilling life without children. The decision is still yours... both paths are beautiful!

And then there is me… I quite like kids, but I just don’t see myself as a parent, I don’t want to have to deal with everything that comes with them. And I have my own unresolved issues with dependence/children. I’m just getting over my own childhood let alone dealing with someone else’s! :lol:biggrin.gif

From my own perspective, my parents have passed on shit to me, but thats ok, they did their best... And its ok to work through these generational wounds, hopefully i dont pass them on to my own kids if i have them... but again, incarnation into human form has its .... costs you could say. You do your best and it becomes the most beautiful thing in the world.

And about the responsibilities... Shit i hear you... Sure is no walk in the park haha.

And would it be fair to have children if your heart is not really in it? Will I, deep down in my cold dark heart resent the fact my life changed into something I didn’t want it to?

in an ideal world i guess... but shit does happen, circumstances are not perfect for all... If you really dont want children, that choice is there to you.

Im sure if you had kids you would love the little bastards.

My mum said she never wanted kids... but she says its the best thing thats ever happened to her.

There is also the possibility of telling this women to get stuff to (your woman,,, not my mum... haha).

Perhaps some sort of divination would really help you... I dont think alcohol did fuck all for any one. Put aside some time (like 30 mins a day) and meditate on it if you are not already.

[ThunderIdeal]

i'm 100% not for children.

they cost a fortune (which most people don't have)

they take huge amount of time to give a proper upbringing (time that most people don't have)

they require a decent role model (which most people aren't)

damn you god!! i see what you did there. you gave women hormonal urges to multiply, as if to ensure the species survival... instead dooming us to inevitable doom.

[Foton]

yeah thunderideal...

Its not like we have a shortage of children in the world or anything...

I would like to add a Terence McKenna thought... which is basically if all couples in the world only have 1 child... then we bring down the population of the world....

You do the planet a favor by NOT having children.

[woof woof woof]

i want to practise making baby a whole lot more before i start with them

[incognito]

i think you would make a great father WT. i think u sell urself short.

there is no greater joy in my life, than my child.

Edited April 28, 2009 by incognito

[watertrade]

Thanks for the heart warming replies.

Its easy to see the differences between the dads and not dads.

I will be looking back at everyone's replies as I give this some thought, lots of good points from the dads to consider - putting myself in the scenario.

I think with these thoughts simmering away and a bit of time the answers will come to me.

Gilligan, thanks for presenting the alternatives " you Die!, you die Alone!" hehe, thanks mate

Edited April 28, 2009 by watertrade

[Foton]

Good luck mate... let me share a joke i heard from a one liner commedian....

My wife and I decided we dont want children.... So if any one wants to come and pick them up, feel free.

[Torsten]

It's pathetic how unevolved we are that we can't keep our hormones under control despite the obvious damage we do to this planet. There is no skill involved in having children - just look at how well trash breeds. The skill lies in raising a child well. But if you are smart enough to raise a child well then you should also be smart enough to know that we don't need more children. Quite a conundrum really.

At 18 I wanted to have lots of kids. Like 5 or 6. A few years later I learnt more about overpopulation and decided that 2 would be the maximum. Then I learnt about how many resources each child uses as it grows up and how much the child's children will consume and destroy and I decided that ideally I would have no kids, but if my partner insisted I'd go for one - maximum. The whole genetics thing for me isn't much of an issue as I see my nephews grow up and they are doing just fine with the family genes ;)

I love kids and emotionally I'd like nothing more than to have some - but emotionally I'd also like to eat chocolate all day, screw around a lot, and have a collection of gas guzzling cars. My brain tells me that I don't need those things and that I can have a good life without all of them. And that includes kids. Selfcontrol does not have to leave a void in your life. We exercise selfcontrol over other aspects of our life all the time. But children seems to be a taboo thing.

If adoption laws ever change to remove discrimination I'd be inclined to adopt, but I wouldn't want to do that too old.

Watertrade, I feel sorry for you that your partner is so selfish as to make such a decision unilaterally. But then again despite the often repeated statement that there is nothing more SELFLESS than having a child, in this day and age there is actually few things that are more SELFISH. Having a child is almost always about the parents uncontrolled desire. If we gave into all desires we'd be living like animals.

Daddies - flame away....

[mac]

No flame here, that's your choice weather i agree with it or not

thats pretty much what it all comes down to

Edited April 28, 2009 by mac

[tardistestpilot]

i have 3 beautiful children none were actually planned and are to 3 different mothers my eldest daughter being 14 years /thinks shes 24 my son 9years and my youngest daughter 3 years and just outa nappys yay !!!!!!!!!!!

all i can say WT its very challenging and some of the most joy sobering joy ever

now i have been irresponsible as to the impact to the environment through irresponsible procreation

i still love and provide for my children (so far)

just be sure that just having a baby isn't about keeping a failing relationship together

and i agree with that the world has to many people already

im seriously going to get myself sterilised and encourage child adoption

anybody want 3

[incognito]

no flames here, its a huge decision! one that comes with its stresses and will test a relationship fully!!!!

however i cant see how a woman is being selfish for wanting to have a child???

i agree the world is overpopulated, but we could soon fix that up by bringing back the deathpenalty for convicted murderers, rapists and child molesters!!!

that would also have a positive effect on the environment!!!! maybee have some blood and bone 'molester mix' to feed and regenerate our forests with? shit i must patent that.

Edited April 28, 2009 by incognito

[Torsten]

however i cant see how a woman is being selfish for wanting to have a child???

I guess most people can't see that which is why this world is in such a mess. It's not rocket science though.

When an individual does something for their own gratification that is at the same time detrimental to everyone else then that is by definition selfish.

i agree the world is overpopulated, but we could soon fix that up by bringing back the deathpenalty for convicted murderers, rapists and child molesters!!!

Given that in most countries penalties for drug possession are harsher than for child molestors I think a product called 'hippie mix' would probably be more successful. Wishing for the death penalty is a dangerous thing. Anyway, look at countries that do have the death penalty - they just breed faster to make up for it as there is a generally lower value put on life.

Sounds like a very simplistic and short sighted 'fix'.

[ThunderIdeal]

wow torsten you nailed it, never thought of death penalty quite like that.

sadly us blokes can't fully grasp the female side of things. we get to perform our reproductive role no strings attached, asking women to not bear children is roughly akin to asking men not to fuck.. you're contending with a powerful force. what if watertrades missus said 'okay, we can stay together and i won't have kids, but you are not allowed to fuck'. i'm just trying to add some balance because from this perspective, we can empathise with the 'self gratification' that is having children (and it certainly is that).

[Chiral]

Someone once said to me about raising children...." As hard as you think it will be...you will wish it was that hard when they arrive."

Where the hell is Amulte...I'm sure he has a lot to offer this thread in between nappie changes and getting a pot belly...

H.

[Neoshaman]

Yeah I've always sat with the origianl opinionthat you said Tthat you really shouldn't have more then two children that way effectively because everyone doesn't make that choice (to have children) population would theoretically decline and personally i think responsible goverment ( pffft like there is any of them round ) should have introduced a two child policy long ago .

While I understand what you say regarding resources ... what if the parent was able to knit many of the clothes make their own baby foods and only used cloth nappys.

I think and obviously this is just my opinion that children consume so many resources due to the convience society craves

yeah i would hate to be in your position wt I've always been quite upfront early in relationships as to what i want and why I've never been ina position where a person has changed their mind fuck thats a major issue I think i'd be doing exactly what you are either solution is quite a sacrifice on your part all the best man hope things turn out well whatever you decide

[MORG]

Probably best discussed over beer I think Big decisions but by no means a unique situation.

But I agree with ThunderIdeal. The urge to reproduce is second only to survival and to be offended that people have trouble controlling that urge is to overestimate humanity.

I don't think 2 kids is selfish although I do understand the logic of Torsten's argument. If you abstain from reproducing for those reasons then I see that as very selfless.

If K-Rudd and The Swan increase paid maternity leave to something sensible in the next budget I'd like to see those conditions only upheld for a woman's first two children. That would send a firm message about overpopulation and save the Government money.

Breed WT! Breed and breed some more. Then you can get them toiling in your cactus farms and the more you have the more chance one of them gets rich and supports you in your senescence.

[Chiral]

Plus there is nothing like watching "Sponge Bob and Bugs life" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over....

[incognito]

okay okay, so kids are bad for the planet..

guess what so are we. Why should we be gifted with the chance to walk the earth,while a couple should be frowned upon for making a decision to bring a child into the world?? thats kinda shortsighted. Thing is, there is enough space here for humans. Just we r to stupid and lazy to co-exist with our environment.

We are all guilty for the present situation, making couples feeling guilty bout having children will not fix anything.

Anyone for hippy/molester mix b&b?

im not inviting the death penalty anymore than u are saying couples should not have kids.thats pretty fucked up as well.

Listen to ur heart WT.

edit- spongebob has nothin on Yo Gabba Gabba!!

t- When an individual does something for their own gratification so ALL women have children for their own gratification huh???

man it must be awesome to know everything. shit i though women giving birth was i dunno...kinda natural.

Edited April 29, 2009 by incognito

[gilligan]

edit- spongebob has nothin on Yo Gabba Gabba!!

AAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hate that show!!!!!!!!!!!! how many songs can they sing to the one tune, ffs?!?!

I've just started showing harps Astroboy, he loves it That and playschool - i love brooke satchwell

[ThunderIdeal]

But I agree with ThunderIdeal. The urge to reproduce is second only to survival

there i go, undermining my own argument.

cognito, my opinion for what it's worth.... it is natural but are you gonna use that argument when i club a woman over the head and drag her back to my cave? rape is fairly natural but we as humans choose to override what is natural for the sake of what is right (well some of us do). i agree with torsten that calling it selfless is way off the mark. doing a great job of parenting requires a lot of selflessness, but i can't see how the decision to have a baby is ever selfless, and if abortion is reasonable to your ideology then there IS a decision.

[hebrew]

yeah i agree here with incognito, having kids or not having kids your fucked up for the environment, wow what a thread, so many of you against people having children. im proud of having kids and of my children i dont give a fuck if everyone here hates the breeders of the world, granted there are alot of fucknut parents out there, who have too many kids and dont care for the ones they have, but there is an equal amout of fucknut people wiht no kids, but its not fair to lump all parents into that same boat, its like saying all you ethno people are like teotz, or are all druggy bums.

i dont drive a car, who here that is so quick to blame parents for fuckgin the environment do?. how many of you use a computers. how ethical are computer manufacture on the environment, mobile phones etc, btw i dont own a mobile phone either, who here transports plants all over the country or world, that has an impact on the environment too dont see people getting up in arms about that, no thats right as long your plants get to you in the mail its ok isnt it, to blame it on the environment is pretty hard i reckon. fuck, everything is fucked for the environment, who caught an airplane recently anyone? i dont rarely new clothes for my kids, its mostly second hand, hand me downs, my wife knits clothes for them too, i dont even have a heater in my house, and its very cold here at the moment, how many of you got heaters on all day? or air conditioner during summer. we can all pull the environment card thats easy to do, i think you can raise children in a sustainable way, no more than what you can live in a sustainable way if you didnt have kids. you can teach children how to live for the future as against it. if you are smart and wise i think its important to pass that knowledge of how to care for our environment onto future genreations so they can be leaders and aware of our planet. if all parents were teaching the children now to live a life of excess and not care then the future has no hope its is the parents that make their children aware of sustainable living that are going to make a difference. the reality is being a commited parent is alot of work, and responsibilty. perhaps not everyone is up to being a parent and that is ok, its a big commitment.

yo gabba gabba is the best!