A solution to the Teotz problem

[mutant]

and mutant 3 seeds completely free of charge is alot better than nothing... anyway i don't want to get involved with all this, so i won't say anymore.

Heh, that was obviously ironic. ;)

[mark80]

Is it very hard to figure out why I stopped posting at The Nook until Teotz was banned? I think he has a number of sock puppets though.

I don't suppose I have been seen much around here either. Go figure.

M S Smith

Group: Members

Posts: 933

Joined: 15-July 00

Member No.: 19

Eight years and not even a thousand post, how pathetic!

~Michael~

This should speak for itself.

I don't see why you can't ban one to save many.

he obvisouly doesnt learn.

[Torsten]

it would be interesting to hear what the SAB stalwarts of free speech have to say about this situation

I am not sure what it says about a member who will not return to a good forum because of a single person there he doesn't like. There are people on almost every forum that drive me nuts, but the tolerant and mature approach is to be able to ignore them or deal with them whichever is the more appropriate. Hell, think about all the people on this forum that give me the shits and yet I stick with it. eg, one member here who's posts used to make my blood boil, yet I understand he has his good aspects and is liked by many others, so I either engage him positively or ignore him. Should I boot him too?

Bottom line is many of us are intolerant to certain styles of posts. So do we get rid of everyone who annoys someone else? Where do we draw the line?

I know there is a problem with Teotz, and I am trying to fix it [don't think I just sit here an watch the dramas unfold without being involved]. Simply banning people like Teotz is not the answer though. This community is interesting because we have many quirky people here. Getting rid of them just because some [or even many] don't like the quirks isn't really going to be that good for the diversity now is it? I have seen major improvement in teotz, although it appears to be sporadic and periodic. We know he loves his plants and is not just here to cause trouble. He just seems to cause it without even trying.

The biggest problem is that no one is giving him a fair go which seem to set him up for relapses into his ruts. he arrived here with massive baggage and he has not been able to shake it. We need some action, but I have not given up on him yet.

[misteek]

well said torsten. If he annoys some of you that much just use the ignore feature. that way the people that do enjoy reading his posts can. and the people that don't can ignore. Everyone's happy

EDIT: and he doesn't really break any of the rules as such... it's just that he annoys some people. but you can't pick and choose everything, heck if that was the case i'd be able to do all sorts of awesome shit.

Teotz bans on other forums seem to be his downfall.

ahh shit! i've said too much! lol i'll keep my mouth shut.

Edited August 21, 2008 by misteek

[t st tantra]

y-t,for one, is no longer here because of this issue.

would you let people shit in your house?

teotz giving advice by pm is a worry for me too!

t s t .

[GingaNinja]

I am not sure what it says about a member who will not return to a good forum because of a single person there he doesn't like.

I think thats the point though, that the forum is losing its value as a good resource. Its a bit more than simply people not getting along. Although its only one person, it creates a massive impact

[Torsten]

if everyone helped teotz to become a better contributor rather than point-scoring for their own grandiosity maybe this wouldn't be a problem anymore. I see that he responds very favourably to a few people. Not those who preach to him, but those who explain to him as equals.

tantra, this is not my house. well, i try really hard not to make it that. This is for the most part a public space. I only step in when required. YT stopped coming her just before teotz signed up, so I can't see how there is a connection. People come and go. Often people blame the latest troll or problem for why they left or why they didn't come back. Happens all the time.

Ninja, I am fully aware that teotz has decreased the value of this place. It worries me greatly. Which is why I put a lot of effort into trying to fix the problem.

[planthelper]

another thing is that ripple on effect, where suddenly people break out into arguments (for example sina vs. vert allthought it was kept in an alright style) over those issues and what has been said. some people like to come to the aid of the under dog, with smart posts, but that doesn't change the problem either. this ripple on effect is harmful for the rest of the members of this forum.

i guess that it's impossible for him to act on some of the advice given.

i think, the approach of some people not to come here, unless teotz get's banned is very unfortunate, and maybe a bit inmature, but however, i can truly understand that, teotz post can drive at times "any saint insane" and the only thing those individuals can do is to avoid this from happening by absence.

there is no doubt in my mind, as tort said, that this place is very special and good, because of all the quirks and people from all walks of life, and that it's very hard to draw a line here, however if the forum suffers, and it certainly does we have to take action.

i propose as follows:

teotz agrees to post only 5 post's a day, if he doesn't comply, he get's warned.

now let's be happy, and hope michael visits us again!

[M S Smith]

Hi Torsten!

Yeah man, people do come and go, including myself even though I often don't want to. But that is the nature of things for sure.

As for the "free speech" view and this being a "pulic space", well this isn't a government and therefore isn't censorship when someone is banned. This is a space created and supported by an individual (you if I am correct), and a space which can be shut down on a whim without input if desired.

My view is that you may both improve membership activity and quality posts by banning Teotz and his sock puppets when they arise (as they will) and so the pay out may be better without him than should you keep him. Your call of course, but that's my view. I honestly miss posting here, but I don't care to suffer the aggrevation of reading his nonsense, or working to correct his misunderstandings or misrepresentations.

As far as I am concerned Teotz "manic" personality disorder is the basis of his errant nature and I don't believe that he currently has the capacity to change, this regardless of anyones efforts here to assist him. I and many others, here and elsewhere have made these attempts with no success. My way to deal with it is to no longer be around it.

~Michael~

[Torsten]

i propose as follows:

teotz agrees to post only 5 post's a day, if he doesn't comply, he get's warned.

holy crap! his current average is just 3 post per day. Imagine if he posted 5 posts per day ;)

Teotz and I have come to an understanding as of today. I think it might work. hang in the folks!

[Torsten]

Hey Michael,

Yeah man, people do come and go, including myself even though I often don't want to. But that is the nature of things for sure.

I do it too. It doesn't always reflect the state of a place either, but rather the state of one self. eg, I love the nook, but just don't feel like posting there all that often at the moment. Don't know why really.

As for the "free speech" view and this being a "pulic space", well this isn't a government and therefore isn't censorship when someone is banned. This is a space created and supported by an individual (you if I am correct), and a space which can be shut down on a whim without input if desired.

Yes, the place can be shut down and yes I can bump anyone I dislike. But I don't. You should see the dramas that ensue when I do edit posts or kick people out - LOL.

I hate censorship and as such it takes a lot for me to resort to it. And no, I don't think censorship is the sole domain of governments.

My view is that you may both improve membership activity and quality posts by banning Teotz

I am not disagreeing with you on this point!

so the pay out may be better without him than should you keep him.

I want to have my cake and eat it too. I think teotz can change. I think he already has for various periods. I dunno, I just don't like booting someone just because they are too enthusiastic and don't listen.

As far as I am concerned Teotz "manic" personality disorder is the basis of his errant nature and I don't believe that he currently has the capacity to change, this regardless of anyones efforts here to assist him.

well, it is my last try - and his last chance. So pop back in in a few weeks and he'll either be good or be gone.

[Teotzlcoatl]

if everyone helped teotz to become a better contributor rather than point-scoring for their own grandiosity maybe this wouldn't be a problem anymore. I see that he responds very favourably to a few people. Not those who preach to him, but those who explain to him as equals.

Like Ace, who totally bashs me with some of his post.... but guess what Ace is a REALLY nice guy! The lil' tosser!

I was thinkin' to my self... why the hell does Torsten give a shit? Why doesn't he just ban? It's easier that way (I don't make puppets as Mr.Smith said, as people always figure it out when I start talking about "Lost Peyotes" and "True Blue Peruvianus", I'm not sure why he thinks that) So why doesn't Torsten just give up and give me the boot?!

I stopped and thought... the only conclusion I could come to is that... Torsten is a good man. He is an hoesnt caring person. He PMs me daily in an attempt to fix this problem.

But for some (and you need to remember this too Torsten) some people WILL NEVER CHANGE they will never give me a chance, even if I come back in 10 years with P.H.D.s on cacti and what not SOME PEOPLE will still hate me, always.

Once the crazed village people have declared you a witch no about of sensible talking can conveince them not to chase you out of town with torchs and pitchforks!

As for being back at the Nook-

Your account has been temporarily suspended. This suspension is due to end on Oct 28 08, 10:40 PM GMT.

That's when I get back to the nook! Will I be treated fairly? Or will I be bashed into being a problem?

Edited August 21, 2008 by Teotz'

[Airbender]

bare with me..i've had some pixar movies on in the background...go figure AB!

Once the crazed village people have declared you a witch no about of sensible talking can conveince them not to chase you out of town with torchs and pitchforks!

so are we corroborrians(for the mostpart) kinda like entheo donkey to your shrek...."i'm a terrifying ogre..doesn't that bother you...not really"

and then theres the..."we toys see everything so PPPLLLLAAAYYY NNNNIIIICCCEEE"...maybe that makes us woody to your ANDY

p.s. edit..i've been here like 5 mins so i DONT HVE FKN CLUE but my 2c worth = you're alright jack

Edited August 21, 2008 by Airbender

[Auxin]

[-YT-]

"Once the crazed village people have declared you a witch no about of sensible talking can conveince them not to chase you out of town with torchs and pitchforks!"

Interesting you said that in particular just been reading alot on this topic in regards to native practice and opposition from the church im sure its honourable that you believe your a martyr for some cause but the context isnt right in this case, like we've tried helping you heeps mate friendly advice and all that but its you who hasnt changed much despite Torstens apparent hand holding and spoon feeding...

Which is fair enough everyone deserves a go, when i first rocked up i made pritty silly posts and T you sent me a pritty straight forward PM not really much niceties in it (not that being nice is/was the point) but was of importance is knowing the boundaries and respecting other people and those boundaries, think i was 17 or something at the time heheh anyway i didnt come back for months after that till i had researched and looked into alot of things before posting again and trying to contribute useful information maybe its just common sense and courtesy

Like Ed said before in a post he has been growing cacti longer then most of us younger forum noobs have been alive and yet he doesnt post all over the cactus forum because he feels he has yet more to learn and respects that others know or have that information that he doesnt yet know or have but feels happy to come here and learn from others, now does that not say alot about a person he is? say as an example.. ( and yes SC and i think vert have mentioned its bit silly to gauge ppl from posts etc, but i guess its not hard to read between the lines to getting a feeling of what someones about, espcially when they've been on numerous related forums doing the EXACT same thing..)

The thing is alot of us really dig this place as a home its where were came/come to learn and interact with each other and even hang out in RL if we are lucky enough to share that time.

And with the general well are devaluing of posts/information is bs, maybe SAB has too much good info as a standard i dunno if you guys go onto other forums much even non ethno ones but its amazing the amount of useless, pointless and ultimately un-helpful information in general

Tone has kinda shifted focus i guess you could say with teotz and yes things have been bad before he rocked up but not to this point before, with the personal attacks/vendettas people have or get involved with kinda stayed away to keep outta it...i think you know what i mean by that, but hey here i am outta some misplaced thought of helping, Its like telling your own selective hearing child they only heard what they want and they stare back at you with that blank expression

"even if I come back in 10 years with P.H.D.s on cacti and what not SOME PEOPLE will still hate me, always."

If Recognition is really what you want.. why not invest yourself properly into your endeveours and do the hard yakka that comes with that investment if your actually serious... and people dont hate you they hate they fact that you have to be continously feed information that most seem to easy be able to find and grasp for themselves, and passing of others experiences and info as your own advice...

Edited August 21, 2008 by -YT-

[M S Smith]

Well said -YT-, but regardless, useless in serving the purpose you want it to. It's all been said before, though maybe not as eloquently.

~Michael~

[Ace]

Like Ace, who totally bashs me with some of his post.... but guess what Ace is a REALLY nice guy!

I feel I have to clarify on this one - the only time I think I've ever pounced (and meant it) is when you've openly insulted longstanding members here. Other than that I like to think I help quite a bit in keeping you informed on matters I can occasionally help with and on several occasions I've stood up for you and copped an ear full for doing so. I think you really could do well here given patience, careful thought and a bit of research before each post (the reasoning behind why I am usually very friendly to you - as I'm sure is the case with a lot of people who are happy to have you onboard). Torsten is right that you have improved in these ways over the last few months, but things seem to be relapsing lately - hence all the BS that is being flung left, right and centre.

I wont be using the ignore function - mostly because I like to hear what others say, both the good and the frustrating. Our differences are what make things interesting But be prepared to see a bit of shit slung from time to time if there is a lot of frustrating stuff posted.

I do want to say that it really is a shame to see a few very loved members have begun to leave this place. People like Teonanacatl and Michael (and numerous others) have contributed a huge amount here over the years and I dont want to see them leave over something like this. I just want to make sure they are aware that should they decide to permanently leave, they will be missed dearly.

The lil' tosser!

Inside joke - received with a chuckle.

[gilligan]

Woohoo...

From a little song i know...

"you shit me to tears

am i making it cle-ee-ee-ar

so gimme a break

For fucks sake"

[Amulte]

i just want to explain the ignore feature...... (unless it changed), the ignore feature pertains only to PM's, not posts or threads (unless it all changed)

id honestly be surprised if it does posts and threads.i thought it was common knowledge it was only PM's

to be on topic all i got to say is yall gotta stop chewing each other out, accept people for how/who they are, or use the ignore feature of your brain instead of the forums. i mean... imagine two people in an argument, one has knowledge and evidence, the other doesnt, who is the idiot? the one who blindly argues or the one who is trying to talk to a wall? (so to speak).

i disagree with some of the things Teotz has said and surely will say, but thats not reason enough to throw arms up in the air demanding satisfaction. it would be pretty fucking boring if we all agreed on everything and had the exact same ideals about things.

also id like to add i think this thread belongs in the bitch ditch.

EDIT - im not defending him but its not like Teotz goes about spouting racist, homophobic, antisemitic BS.

Edited August 22, 2008 by Amulte

[paradox]

hey Amulte, theres a PM block function and also an ignore users function

[mark80]

There are people on almost every forum that drive me nuts, but the tolerant and mature approach is to be able to ignore them or deal with them whichever is the more appropriate. Hell, think about all the people on this forum that give me the shits and yet I stick with it. eg, one member here who's posts used to make my blood boil, yet I understand he has his good aspects and is liked by many others, so I either engage him positively or ignore him. Should I boot him too?

Conside rit like this. A big group of friends are hanging out. A new guy comes in and shits everywhere, you think that maybe he justa little quirky, but eventaully after being told hundreds of times that his stuff is unacceptable he keeps going. eventaully your mates start to argue with him every time he goes out with you, than they start to leave. you tell that person not hang out with you. If its is one person that you don't like or a couple its ok, poeple clash, but when the majority of your good frinds start to have porbalems you think twice right?

if everyone helped teotz to become a better contributor rather than point-scoring for their own grandiosity maybe this wouldn't be a problem anymore. I see that he responds very favourably to a few people. Not those who preach to him, but those who explain to him as equals.

I disagree, alot of pople have on many occasions have tryed to help him, almost to the point of not just spoonfeeding but chewing, swallowing and regurgiating.

Now we come to what is perhaps the most annoying bity of all.

I was thinkin' to my self... why the hell does Torsten give a shit? Why doesn't he just ban? It's easier that way (I don't make puppets as Mr.Smith said, as people always figure it out when I start talking about "Lost Peyotes" and "True Blue Peruvianus", I'm not sure why he thinks that) So why doesn't Torsten just give up and give me the boot?!

I stopped and thought... the only conclusion I could come to is that... Torsten is a good man. He is an hoesnt caring person. He PMs me daily in an attempt to fix this problem.

Torsten is all of those things and you play on it.

even after daily pm's you still think your above this place. Like the community owes you something for your posts here.

But for some (and you need to remember this too Torsten) some people WILL NEVER CHANGE they will never give me a chance, even if I come back in 10 years with P.H.D.s on cacti and what not SOME PEOPLE will still hate me, always.

he is right, some people will never change. even after 1000 posts he hasn't changed all that much. stuck your foot in that one hey buddy?

Once the crazed village people have declared you a witch no about of sensible talking can conveince them not to chase you out of town with torchs and pitchforks!

the whole world is aginst you huh? maybe the porblem ls in your lack of abaility to see your own fualts.

Teotz and I have come to an understanding as of today. I think it might work. hang in the folks!

maybe time will tell.

[Vertmorpheus]

The biggest problem is that no one is giving him a fair go which seem to set him up for relapses into his ruts. - T

I reckon that's being a lil unfair, generally a good set of points though. But there we get into the topic of fair gos for fair gos, and the line between being a support mechanism and just being abused (not in the "criminal" sense, just the mismanaged resource sense). Ditto "point-scoring for their own grandiosity". I think whilst its quicker to assume the worst, in reality most ppl are (I feel) trying to get what they need or want out of wherever they are, without upsetting anyone or feeling upset. The minute we get into the second n third guesses about motives around here ...well, it really is a game we can ALL play, if we wanna start thinking like that.

Very lumpy ground once we get into what is a "good" personality and what is a "bad" one... just because someone else doesn't think you're much chop doesn't mean you're not, and just because some ppl think you're pretty decent doesn't mean you are... theres the good of the community n all that of course, but simply expelling someone from one for reasons of ...style alone... rather than action or intent or purpose... sounds a bit harsh. Not to say its maybe not necessary at times, but it has to be seen for what it is. Also good to remember that for everyone you think is a dickhead, there's someone who has you on that list as well...probly a few someones, if you make a habit of handing out judgement like that... long live the art of Handling, I spose.

I suspect a decent whack of the love and the hate with Teotz (and I reckon all in all he'd be a laugh to hang out with for a couple days, seems a genuinely gentle soul especially for a young bloke, would be sad to see that shine rubbed off) is that the man reminds us a> how cringe worthy we all have been at times b> backs up the worry most ppl get from time to time that we're really, really disliked and noone will let on c> how quickly we draw lines in the sand and step over em,personal developmentwise, without even realising til after the fact ;) d> how some of lifes situations cannot be "sorted out'. They just happen, as Teotz said some people simply never change their basic nature... others never will but learn how to act as if they have, suppress the cringeworthy bits haha. and finally, there's the ages old conflict of SAB... library or fanclub, room for personality or dry as snuff?

I wouldn't let someone shit in my house, implicitly, but then if they had some kind of ... medical reason...compelling motive... I'd take that into account. Especially if my house was known as a good place to visit for resources and help with bowel conditions, hmm? At the same time, if I asked em to try to at least land most of it on the tiles and they didn't, they'd get nagged about it. After one too many times of slipping over in it, they'd get put on notice and if still no improvement, I'd either say right you STAY in a wet area, or you stay outside, or you just don't come around around more.

Sometime nice isn't enough and things that "feel icky to do" seem to be in order, it's never nice having to decide but then that's the thing with a "socialo-democratic-free-state" like we have running here... even at the best parties, if someone starts hitting bucketies in your fishtank or justbeing a little too loud, it's in everyones best interest if its toned back a lol. Especially the poor fishies. They do remember ya know

I still have a wee cynical part (no, really) that says "yall are being trollbitched, yhear" but as a parent you have to be on guard 24 7 against machiavellian regimes Maybe thats it, some ppl are in a life position where they can usually make a decision or have an interaction with a person and thats it, theyre "non essential interactions" wheras having lil monsters means you can't just "write em off" or "just give that kid a smack". Neither is an effective long term solution, neither makes you feel good on the inside, one is just wrong at every level and the other just inefficient really. You still have to sort their breaky the next day, etc. maybe more practice at counting to 10, 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times.

Course some tom cats are almost universally forgiving and many parents are evil tyrannical shits who just want quiet at any cost... just a thought though.

At the end of the day I guess the real question is, do the majority of members (and even then, theres thousands regod and how many actually appear on ar egular basis?) think it would be in the long term best interest of all concerned to impose a doctrine of "personality crimes"? Personally I like to think we represent the "other side of the fence" in a genrally uncaring and dismissive society that refuses to make individual allowance... but then if you stick too rigidly to a principle like that you end up lousey with rejects (with reason) and trouble makers, at the worst case... a generally happy land of creators and dreamers, in the best case.

In a traditional tribal society, despite what the average trapped urbanite suspect, there is very little room for "acting outside your box". You cant decide "chopping back the jungle is futile" or "no no carrying firewood to the next camp would be exploitation" or whatever... in tiny tiny communities living in edgy conditions, its unity and cohesion that keeps them all alive... continual or even repeated disruption of the social order is a very,very serious matter... even in our society, "sedition" (say what you will of course) carries some very heavy shit with it... treason can still get you shot.

Might be a case of deciding , personally, if youd rather this "tribe" was open to a bit of social change ie the "standard" can and will change overtime, its the nature of things, otherwise "greybeards" would have nothing to complain about, middlers nothing to worry about, youngins nothing to carry on all excitedly about... or want it set in stone, nothing changing but the details of the content... it must be rememberd that almost everywhere was "so much nicer back in the day, before everyone else showed up"... land clearing is nasty but its nice they found somewhere to build YOUR house, eh?

eh... it's certainly all very interesting really, and congrats all round for keeping what could be a very icky thread indeed generally on the "upright" side, haha. Before you can relax it's good to clean the house, and all that, which usually does make more of a mess inn the meantime as you juggle things around...

VM

Edited August 22, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[Amulte]

hehe thanks paradox, just had a closer look at that, things have changed since i last looked at it (boy i made myself look a tad silly ay?). doesn't really ignore them tho. i mean if some people just cant help replying to teotz posts/threads, how are they expected to keep him on the ignore list.

i mean, it still shows the blocked persons avatar, and the fact they posted, just doesn't let you read it unless you hit the button. now if people cannot turn a blind eye to his posts how would that feature help? i imagine if one cannot ignore the posts manually, curiosity would get the better of them. show a little self discipline/self control i say.

what about people who don't have him on ignore and they quote him, you will read what he said in another's post. do you in turn add them to ignore? when does it end. if you don't wanna see it just close your eyes, click you heels 3 times (or the mouse button once) and repeat "theres no place like home... theres no place like home"

although one thing i cannot ignore is the running theme that some agree and are concerned that his posts change the attitude, dynamic, information flow and visiting habits of members (one rotten apple spoils the barrel) but i cannot help but think theres better ways of addressing the situation is all im trying to say.

people use the "dont shit in my house" metaphor, personally i see it as a group house. we all live here, we all share this space. dont have to like each other or agree on everything but its better to get along than bicker constantly. not just for ones own mental wellbeing, but everyone else in the house too. the bickering does have a negative impact, but it always takes two.

[husk]

this 'community' really sickens me sometimes.

[Teotzlcoatl]

I just realized...

One thing in this thread I never said is...

...I'm sorry.

The LAST thing I want is to be a pain in the ass. I don't care about personal fame or anything like that. I like plants and I read/post when I'm bored or deppressed about something (it takes my mind off it) so the times I'm posting the most are often when I'm going through a bad time...

I really like you people! Every single last one of you seriously...

Mark80... a wonderfully inteligent guy who speaks his mind.

Gilligan... You write awesome insulting poems! I can remember a few more bashin' poems/songs by you! What a creative way to tell me what's on your mind! I truly like reading your posts!

Ace.... You tosser! Ahaha, you've got me keen on some of the linguistics of the land of Oz! Cheers mates! (I think Ace was the one that actually told me that Oz was Aus. before that I didn't know what the hell it meant!)

Auxin.... Your one of the coolest people I've met on any forum. Thanks for the free stuff, I also thank you for the picture of the homosexual music group! Tho the band's name slips my mind! "I wanna be a macho man"?

Vertmorpheus... your posts! Your posts are sooo long! Your 1,250+ post probably encompasses a novel's worth of text. That would be like a million Teo-posts! I should aspire to be more like you! You def. make every post count!

And for some reason I have some sort of infatuation for Sina Is that person a girl? Maybe I'm gay... who knows...

I want to thank all the mods and admins for letting me stay this long! I truly thank Mr.Trout and Mr.Smith as well as the other "Gods of Cacti" who came before and after them. I thank all the members that have given me advice and attempted to guide me along the way... may the Tao bless you all.

To Torsten I will say only this- You are a kind, honest, patient man.

~ Teotzlcoatl ~

P.S.- Your all welcome to come live on my self-sufficent farm in a couple of years! Just you know... bring your plants!

Edited August 22, 2008 by Teotz'