Matucana Pachanoi seeds and clones

[Thecactuslife]

I've heard about Matucana pach's, including Ogun and want to know where to find seeds.

 

What named pach clones may originate from Matucana or would rival these Pachanoi? Tia

[Pedro99]

Herbalistics sells matucana pach seeds and cuttings/seedlings.

 

LMP legendary matucana pachanoi, is another similar to ogun.. maybe the same 

[Thecactuslife]

Thanks! Yeah theyve been out of stock for a while and seeing if i can get them elsewhere otherwise wait until next season.

 

I think Matucana pach in general is supposed to be very sacred as far as I've heard so im sure LMP is similar. Wonder if any other named clones have the same origins.

[Halcyon Daze]

The problem with buying these seeds is there's an element of trust you must take to begin with. The seeds change hands a couple of times along the way, so any one of those people could be BS-ing a little or a lot (or not at all).

 

The other major factor is that virtually NONE of these plants were pollinated by hand, and they are all Open Pollinated in an area dominated by T. peruvianus. So yeah, many of these seedlings that have been sprouted are looking quite spiky and are probably pach X peru hybrids. Nothing really wrong with that except that it's a lot of time, money and effort to get some bastardized seed that wasn't specifically what you were looking for.

 

Anyway. There's been plenty of people sprouting these over the last few years so just sit tight and keep your eyes and ears peeled. Ogun is getting around too, so eventually you'll be able to get it, buy it off someone with a solid rep and high number of posts, and been around for years. I'd start saving though, and start getting proficient with the art of propagation etc. You won't wanna be making rookie errors with a $300 snippet of Ogun.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Halcyon Daze

[Thecactuslife]

Yeah makes sense. I will focus on my other guys until i find a good buy and get my grafting skills up. Do you think its all hype or are these as were documented?

 

Is there any easier pach hybrids that i should be looking at? Too many names and i cant find the information on what makes these clones unique

[Halcyon Daze]

Ogun was the subject of a single analysis, for a study exploring this very issue. It showed high levels of alks. But as for many hype clones, they're too valuable for experimenting with. Most people plan to sell a couple first, just to recoup the crazy money they spent on it. Can take years before someone decides to take the plunge with their hard-earned $$hype$$. So we may not know for a while. Plus people can make up bullshit rumors too, so who knows what to believe sometimes.

 

[Habanos]

On 15/04/2020 at 4:58 AM, Halcyon Daze said:

Ogun was the subject of a single analysis, for a study exploring this very issue. It showed high levels of alks. But as for many hype clones, they're too valuable for experimenting with. Most people plan to sell a couple first, just to recoup the crazy money they spent on it. Can take years before someone decides to take the plunge with their hard-earned $$hype$$. So we may not know for a while. Plus people can make up bullshit rumors too, so who knows what to believe sometimes.

 

The thing about Ogun is the cuttings were held for one year prior to testing. 

 

[Halcyon Daze]

On 23/04/2020 at 1:12 PM, Habanos said:

The thing about Ogun is the cuttings were held for one year prior to testing. 

 

 

Yes, but I was told from a reliable source that they were grown out for a few months before testing, so it's a bit unclear. I'd love to get that particular point cleared up properly from Trout.

[Habanos]

Also, how many cuts of Ogun were tested?

 

I think at this point we need new test from 5-10 different cuts. (Wishful thinking on my part)

[jasemateau]

interesting

[Strontium Dawg]

Of more importance to the whole test saga is the question of what was tested. What's it just outer green part, or whole plant. If it was just outer part, I'm sure there are many Aussie clones that will test at similarly high levels. If it was whole plant, well, then that is extraordinary. 

[nothinghead]

I think just the outer green part. From the paper: "A fresh sample of chlorenchyma from the green outer cortex of the stem of each Echinopsis species to be assayed..."

[Black Rainbow]

Ogunbodede, O., et al., New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxacultivars ofEchinopsisspp. Cactaceae San Pedro and their relevance to shamanic practice. J. Ethnopharmacol. 2010.pdf

Ogunbodede, O., et al., New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxacultivars ofEchinopsisspp. Cactaceae San Pedro and their relevance to shamanic practice. J. Ethnopharmacol. 2010.pdf

Ogunbodede, O., et al., New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxacultivars ofEchinopsisspp. Cactaceae San Pedro and their relevance to shamanic practice. J. Ethnopharmacol. 2010.pdf

Ogunbodede, O., et al., New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxacultivars ofEchinopsisspp. Cactaceae San Pedro and their relevance to shamanic practice. J. Ethnopharmacol. 2010.pdf

[Strontium Dawg]

1 hour ago, Wile E. Peyote said:

Ogunbodede, O., et al., New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxacultivars ofEchinopsisspp. Cactaceae San Pedro and their relevance to shamanic practice. J. Ethnopharmacol. 2010.pdf

Thanks, I'd read the paper but that was a long time ago and I couldn't remember a lot of detail.

[fyzygy]

I'd take these results with a grain of salt. There seems to have been little to no consistency among growing or harvesting conditions. The TJG specimen (for example) was a light-deprived de-graft grown in cultivation: http://www.cactusconservation.org/CCI/botany/Ogunbodede/02.html. Fair enough, but only if all the other samples were similarly constrained. (Presumably, for the purpose of this study, samples were shipped from various parts of the globe, to compete against endemic varieties grown in situ). 

 

It seems to me the main limitation of the study is the authors' hypothesis that mescaline alone should suffice to explain patterns of shamanic use. T. scopulicola may well have twice the mescaline content of TBM -- but that does not mean that its psychedelic effects are twice as potent, or that it is twice as likely to be prescribed by a shaman. 

 

[Strontium Dawg]

The fact that tbm registers so low does not tally with anyone's experience with it!

[zelly]

plus  ogunbodede x lima1 (not seen in pic)

 

 

 

[ace1928]

On 25/09/2020 at 1:25 PM, Glaukus said:

The fact that tbm registers so low does not tally with anyone's experience with it!

Maois could be a big factor. Along with whatever other alks may or may not be present in each particular plant. 

[fyzygy]

On 13/04/2020 at 8:43 PM, Halcyon Daze said:

The problem with buying these seeds is there's an element of trust you must take to begin with. The seeds change hands a couple of times along the way, so any one of those people could be BS-ing a little or a lot (or not at all).

 

The other major factor is that virtually NONE of these plants were pollinated by hand, and they are all Open Pollinated in an area dominated by T. peruvianus. So yeah, many of these seedlings that have been sprouted are looking quite spiky and are probably pach X peru hybrids. Nothing really wrong with that except that it's a lot of time, money and effort to get some bastardized seed that wasn't specifically what you were looking for.

 

Anyway. There's been plenty of people sprouting these over the last few years so just sit tight and keep your eyes and ears peeled. Ogun is getting around too, so eventually you'll be able to get it, buy it off someone with a solid rep and high number of posts, and been around for years. I'd start saving though, and start getting proficient with the art of propagation etc. You won't wanna be making rookie errors with a $300 snippet of Ogun.

 

Allow me to illustrate. Here's three seedlings of supposedly "spineless" Matucana. Beautiful plants, but they're about as spiny as any I've seen. (I saw another grower selling something very similar, on eBay, as "spineless Matucana").

 

I guess the claim of "landrace genetics" goes right out the window, if hybridised with an unknown Trich. Probably still "Matucanan" though? 

 

Any chance these would become spineless, over time? (I was hopeful, once, but not so much any more.)

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by fyzygy
additional comment

[Black Rainbow]

Landrace seems like a bit of a murky concept but I would assume most/all landrace seed is OP, so it is always going to be a lucky dip purchasing such seeds based on the appearance of the mother plant alone. There is a still chance that they will become spineless over time, good luck!

[trucha]

Names circulating with clones can be troublesome. If that pachanoi originated in the wild near Matucana a hybrid would seem likely but it was more likely brought there as live material from elsewhere. It is a representative of what is often considered a desirable pachanoi as can be found elsewhere and there is no reason to think plants that match this are just as desirable.

Here are some old historical history that might be helpful if anyone is not aware of its origin. The first one is a photo from Geronimo showing that smooth pachanoi along with 4 other "san pedros". This is what started my looking into asking how to get one of each.

The next photo was part of what Kitzu wqas sharing while we were discussing these and the question of how to get them into the US.

The cropped strip shows what arrived after a year tangle with the post office (they shipped with no IDs, labelling or phytosanitary and arrived showing disease so it was lucky we managed to get them)

The pachanoi in the third image are what Ogunbodede analyzed and grew into what was distributed; mostly by me and at least one by Martin.

Edited March 22, 2021 by trucha

[Halcyon Daze]

5 hours ago, trucha said:

 

The pachanoi in the third image are what Ogunbodede analyzed and grew into what was distributed; mostly by me and at least one by Martin.

 

Hi trucha, love yr work as always. I've long wondered about the history of these 'Ogun' clones, particularly what happened in the time between you guys receiving them in the mail and Ogunbodede's analysis. Approximately how long were they grown out before the analysis took place, or did that take place pretty much immediately after they came out of the post. Do you think the long period in the darkness had any effect on the study's results? There seems to be a popular thought that they were analysed soon after their long period in the dark and therefore placing cuts in the dark may be a beneficial practice. Any other interesting things to add about Ogun's history? It's certainly garnered a bit of a cult following after the awesome study. Cheers

Edited March 22, 2021 by Halcyon Daze

[Strontium Dawg]

6 hours ago, trucha said:

Names circulating with clones can be troublesome. If that pachanoi originated in the wild near Matucana a hybrid would seem likely but it was more likely brought there as live material from elsewhere. It is a representative of what is often considered a desirable pachanoi as can be found elsewhere and there is no reason to think plants that match this are just as desirable.

Here are some old historical history that might be helpful if anyone is not aware of its origin. The first one is a photo from Geronimo showing that smooth pachanoi along with 4 other "san pedros". This is what started my looking into asking how to get one of each.

The next photo was part of what Kitzu wqas sharing while we were discussing these and the question of how to get them into the US.

The cropped strip shows what arrived after a year tangle with the post office (they shipped with no IDs, labelling or phytosanitary and arrived showing disease so it was lucky we managed to get them)

The pachanoi in the third image are what Ogunbodede analyzed and grew into what was distributed; mostly by me and at least one by Martin.

Love your work too Trucha.

There seems to be, in the first and last pictures, at least two plants which are not even Trichocereus. Plant labelled "san pedro delgado espinoza 14 puntas" looks like a haageocereus. And the far right "san pedro ancash 6 puntas/bridgesii" looks like maybe a stenocereus? Assuming this is why you mention san pedro with inverted commas!

[trucha]

Weberbauerocereus macrostibas (a plant seeing many name changes) or some species close to that, and Armatocereus laetus.  A year in the mail and disease claimed their lives before anything could be learned. The first had visible mold growing in it when it arrived. I came to the belief that the person putting that first set together did so based on the literature and did so with commercial intentions rather than based on actual knowledge. i.e. Caycho Jimenez's dead-end claim and Wade Davis' unsubstantiated account, respectively.  Details of what could be learned so far is in the book Cactus chemistry by species. It's not in print but a pdf can found at troutsnotes.com. 

[trucha]

It took Bode four years to get his analysis done and this was among the last. I am not suggesting it is not a good choice of a plant to grow but there is actually no reason to think it is particularly special assuming it is being compared with something else in or from Peru that looks just like it. 

It would have been interesting to look at them soon after arrival. The dark storage idea has actually been around for longer. It came out of Peru but I don't know the actual origin.