Trippin Ancestors.

[simhanada]

New research suggests cavemen painted similar patterns and figures as they were strung out on drugs

PREHISTORIC paintings the world over feature eerily similar geometric patterns as they may have been painted by cavemen high on natural hallucinogens, according to new research.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/sci-tech/new-research-suggests-cavemen-painted-similar-patterns-and-figures-as-they-were-strung-out-on-drugs/story-fn5fsgyc-1226680138657

Paper

http://froese.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/froese-et-al-13-turing-instabilities-in-biology-culture-and-consciousness-on-the-enactive-origins-of-symbolic-material-culture.pdf

Edited July 16, 2013 by simhanada

[Francois le Danque]

Have not looked at paper yet, but wanted to say no matter what the outcome, I am totally into this.

edit: pssssht, "strung out", what a massive dork

Edited July 16, 2013 by Frank leDank

[C_T]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2363958/Did-cavemen-DRUGS-New-study-claims-early-paintings-prehistoric-man-high-psychedelic-plants.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

another better article

[Scarecrow]

terence mckenna is laughing in his grave

[Francois le Danque]

Okay I still haven't read the original article (i am at school, i need less intellectual things to distract me ). I just wanted to voice my opinion on the following paragraph, taken from C_T's daily mail article

Because the drugs were taken, and these images were ultimately seen, during spiritual rituals, the cavemen would have put particular emphasis and significance on them.

This would have caused the patterns to be repeated throughout time and across the world.

I don't think this argument holds up to scrutiny. Why did the many disparate cultures have the same rituals creating the same effects? I think it's the visions that created the rituals, not the other way around. Also even though i consider it a shame, i think a lot of these paintings, though representing the psychedelic experience, were not the result of drug use. i think probably the people who painted them entered the state through alternative means.

But it's still cool, and validating to those who seek the PE, no matter how they choose to do so.

[etherealdrifter]

In the news.com.au article, fig 3g, does anyone else see a supermarket trolly in the middle(the handle is pointing towards the top,left corner)?

Perhaps the strung out caveman not only experienced a trip but somehow the hallucinogen also allowed them to have visions of the future.

[qualia]

disclaimer: i only skimmed the paper to see the vessel with spiral patterns, i didn't actually read it.

i have little doubt that our ancestors were experimenting with mind altering substances, but really there are complex geometric patterns present in nature. ant/termite colonies, snail trails, leaf borers, leaves themselves, ripples on a pond, all sorts of things contain complex patterns. 40,000+ years is a long time and none of us really know how much those early humans could grasp intellectually the world around them (contrast with some humans today who still think a splotch on the wall is the virgin mary, etc.). but it's interesting nonetheless, thanks for posting.

[Francois le Danque]

Hey eth it's the "checkout" logo from ebay!

...but i wouldn't have seen it if you didn't tell me to!

Edited July 17, 2013 by Frank leDank

[C_T]

from what i skimmed, a group in japan looked at hallucination images humans see,

then looked at old painting from texas and concluded the painting are the same images humans see when injesting hallucinogenic substances

i thought it was really cool how they are independent of eachother

the people were in dark caves drawing on the walls, what they were drawing was from the hallucinations, pretty mucg sums up alot of peoples thoughts of how they drew in dark caves with such accuracy and detail

[bogfrog]

Yeah the consistancy of the images over sparse geographical locations is pretty cool.

I love that this kinda stuff pops up everywhere, weather or not we can ever conclusively say that all our ancestors were trippin out, i like that they were creative and wanted to share what they considered important.

Slightly off topic -not really, but slightly- has anyone researched their geneology?

I had a go at it for a few hours the other day and It was thrilling stuff, sure I probably only just scratched the surface of what was there for me to find, but it was humbling and invigorating to discover that my ancestors came from a paganistic, shamanic culture, as i has assumed northern european culture had been always christian.

If you havent already I seriously reccomend doing a little research on your roots

Edited July 18, 2013 by bogfrog

[SunChaser]

^^^Well, someone's obviously never watched stargate, lol. The origins of the modern day Christmas tree is attributed to early protestant Germans, but was almost certainly influenced by their old pagan beliefs and the significance they gave to the evergreen tree, which was a sign of eternal life.

Anyway, haven't the authors of these news articles gone on there own little trip and completely misrepresented what the paper is even proposing?

To be honest I've only skimmed though the paper, but I'm pretty sure they're not trying to claim homo sapiens gained our artistic creativeness though munching large amounts of mushrooms. From what I can see the paper is simply proposing our early artistic representations seem to be influenced by an altered state of consciousness, which was probably achieved though shamanic practices and is a universally similar action within human brain chemistry.

We have to remember the reason hallucinogenic plants have such a profound influence on human consciousness is simply because we have a common ancestor with them which possessed a similar chemical makeup. So obviously the human brain is more than capable of obtaining similar states of consciousness as we can from consuming these plants, simply by interacting within our environment in a particular way. Like by chanting and singing, meditating, or by the use of musical instruments.

Personally, I think before the agriculture era all our ancestors were probably in a constant state of consciousness, with a profound sense of meaning and connection to the world around them, which we would probably associate with psychedelic plants today.

Edited July 20, 2013 by SunChaser

[botanika]

There's currently no way of accurately proving these ancient artists had taken hallucinogens. Consistencies between far flung cultures should be expected given our close genetic ties. It's highly likely certain rituals and graphic expression were utilized by groups before they even left Africa. People and cultures with no drug or ritualistic connections commonly produce hallucinogenic and geometric style art with great meaning as a matter of course.

'Of course, it still remains to be explained why these particular motifs were highly regarded by the artists and how these people became artists capable of symbolic expression in the first place.'

[nothinghead]

^ Agreed, and the similar environmental pressures for which pattern-recognition is a significant factor in (evolutionary) fitness.

Bogfrog - what kind of resources did you use to research your genealogy?

[Francois le Danque]

^^^Well, someone's obviously never watched stargate, lol. The origins of the modern day Christmas tree is attributed to early protestant Germans, but was almost certainly influenced by their old pagan beliefs and the significance they gave to the evergreen tree, which was a sign of eternal life.

**

Personally, I think before the agriculture era all our ancestors were probably in a constant state of consciousness, with a profound sense of meaning and connection to the world around them, which we would probably associate with psychedelic plants today.

It's so obvious that Christianity grew out of early european religions it's not funny. It always annoys me that we celebrate the neochristian holidays on the same dates as the North down here; they're meant to match the seasons! Easter is new life (spring equinox), Autumn equinox is about death and decay and using the last rations before they go off (all Hallow's eve), winter is about escaping the depressing cold (in theory) and being all warm and jolly (christmas). And in summer it's just fucking hot.

Interesting theory sunchaser. i definitely agree that attaining the psychedelic headspace would have been (and is) easier in the wild. What do you think it is about an agricultural/plentiful lifestyle that diminishes our capacity for this kind of experience?

edit: now i can't get the Stargate theme out of my head...

Edited July 24, 2013 by Frank leDank

[SunChaser]

Interesting theory sunchaser. i definitely agree that attaining the psychedelic headspace would have been (and is) easier in the wild. What do you think it is about an agricultural/plentiful lifestyle that diminishes our capacity for this kind of experience?

Well I think there are probably many different reasons. But most notably would be how the introduction of agriculture gave man an ego and caused us to think of ourselves as a separate entity to our environment.

Just imagine being an aboriginal before they made contact with Europeans, sitting by a campfire at night staring at the stars listening to dreamtime stories without any knowledge of anything except for the land they were born to. They must have been trippin big time.

Imo, true spiritually is frowned upon and probably contradictory to modern day religions & civilization in general, hence the current legal status of most psychedelic plants in modern society.

I think the use of psychedelic plants are simply just a novelty short cut to obtaining a perspective to how our ancestors saw the world. Well at least I know I can personally obtain a very similar effect from simply just going bush and isolating myself for a few weeks.

[teonanacatl]

There are other ways to induce altered consciousness besides drugs, likewise who knows the prevalence of schizophrenia or other mental states that were present in these societies. The other thing is we are all innately human, thus likely to have similar visions (we all have retinas the same and its the interpretation of noise that gives us visuals on drugs anyway), thoughts and ideas when it comes to artistic expression. It was a good paper, I love the stuff they do looking at the retina etc.

[incognito]

I used to trip balls as a kid when I had glandular fever. The body overheating caused me to hallucinate visually and audibly. Dissociative states have always been familiar territory for me.

[Francois le Danque]

I used to trip balls as a kid when I had glandular fever. The body overheating caused me to hallucinate visually and audibly. Dissociative states have always been familiar territory for me.

Fevers are a distinct altered state, i find. My favourite thing to do when i have a fever is to play all the way through the original Max Payne. The surreal setting goes well. And when i finish the game i am almost back to normal, exhausted and ready for bed!

[botanika]

It's so obvious that Christianity grew out of early european religions it's not funny....

Actually the Judeo Christian religions primarily grew out of Egyptian and thus Sumerian proto-religions. Some old european traditions and linguistics were adapted or incorporated but the fundamental system is from the middle east.

[Fenris]

Check out Supernatural by Graham Hancock

http://www.amazon.com/Supernatural-Meetings-Ancient-Teachers-Mankind/dp/1932857842

The book is pretty much about how our ancestors loved mushies & loved to paint