Christmas.

[Jambi]

I've noticed Christmas being used by the "if you don't like Australia, go back where you came from" crowd these days, whenever the political-correctness police tell us how to live. Christmas is a Christian celbration, so it's about as Australian as any other religious holiday. I'm not Christian so I don't celebrate it, but I do respect the beliefs of those who feel the need.

Any opinions on this? Seen a lot of this sort of stuff from friends/family on facebook lately: "bloody boat people come over here and tell us we can't celebrate christmas, go back where you came from!!!". The person I quoted that from is also an Athiest

Jambi

[Sheather]

I think people with above opinions should go to a compulsory reeducation camps. They're abhorrent. That said, Christmas is indeed Christian, but dated to coincide with pagan events (winter/summer solstice, depending on hemisphere) so isn't even a celebration of Jesus' birth, which many suppose actually happened between July and September.

All the immigrants should be let in, terrorist threat is a bullshit excuse to incarcerate anyone the government doesn't like, and people with "anti-boat-people" attitudes should be sent to Gaza or given a visit to the Tamil Tigers. (to see what it's like)

Edited November 26, 2011 by Sheather

[shortly]

Personally i love to remind the christians that they are also bloody boat people, that always puts them on the back foot

[dionysus]

some people i know can't seem to tell the difference between a migrant and a refugee, spewing slogans like 'those unskilled migrants, coming here to take our doll' completely missing that the majority of migrants come here highly skilled to take jobs that the same ignorant crowd that abuses them will never be skilled enough to take. even most (if not all) of the refugees i have met have been working, studying and supporting the australian economy/social structure far more than a lot of australian bred people i come across. 'white australians' are often aroud me saying 'oh, those people are trying to build a mosque here, lets stop that' so that islamic people don't move into their community (why i'm not sure) and in the same sentance complain that some areas of melbourne contain ghettos around the existing mosques but they are not giving these people an option. do people not realize that 'australia' is very young and does not have a predominantly white history anyway? do they not realize that in the 1800s many of those who lived here were of oriental and Mediterranean decent? the entire 'if you don't like australia then go back to where you came from' argument is a paradox, as clearly the ones saying that are the very people that don't like australia and the very people that ultimately came from somewhere else.

in relation to christmas, this argument gets even more absurd. the history of christmas is very vague, as it appears to have been (like easter) assimilated from a european pagan holiday at some point and probably isn't to do with jesus at all. im yet to see a biblical passage that says 'jesus was born on december 25, lets all give each other gifts and gorge ourselves on a ridiculous feast'. because of this, i don't see christmas as an important day to any group except the greedy who want some free things and children who naturally enjoy the magical stories of santa and his deer. from my experience most of this 'if you dont like ...... get out' sort of business is directed at islamic people, who accept that jesus was indeed a prophet and an important man and so would likely be happy to celebrate a day for him. after all, it was some Christians that accepted Muhammad and taught him the ways of religion.

EDIT: typo

Edited November 27, 2011 by dionysus

[SunChaser]

I don’t even think most moderate christians really relate Christmas to there religion all that much these days. Christmas really is just a modern day western celebration now. I mean, the people I know that make the biggest deal about Christmas have never stepped foot in a church.

Personally I’ve got a lot of fun childhood memories about Christmas, the aroma of pine needles in a house still makes me feel all acidy, lol.

Although, as an adult who can happily live without meaningless materialistic items, endless trays of meat drenched in saturated fat and sugary food everywhere, not to mention the endless intellectual draining conversations about sport teams and 9 to 5 jobs with a bunch of people that you have to pretend you like, because your related, It should be said I could easierly live without it.

But it is probably one of the more benign factors to western culture.

Also, all those racist hicks really aren’t worth the energy it would take to worry about what they say.

Honestly, most people who talk like that are either just regurgitating something they heard in a Murdoch paper, because they don’t have the intelligence to think for themself. All they’ve got some emotional problem, like something that originates from high school, when some big greek bloke fucked there girlfriend, or something like taht. lol, trust me, it’s always something.

Peace

[qualia]

christmas has never been about jesus for me. when i was a kid it was all about the toys (and sweets). when i was a teen/early twenties, i don't remember probably something to do with paid holidays to get fucked up. now it's more about going home with the family i think my mum likes it because it's the only time of the her her family's together all at once. so i can do it for that (i don't mind admitting to being a mamas boy )

i also live in an apartment complex full of immigrants (OS students), never once have i heard anyone mention anything at all about christmas, let alone trying to prevent others from celebrating it, pfft...like totes watevs

 

[Bretloth]

I'm not christian so I don't celebrate christ mass, but each to their own. Instead my girl and I invented a new holy day that reflects our personal beliefs to celebrate at that time ~ Mushroomass! A bit of a nod to the shamanic origins and a celebration of the divine mushrooms

[Jambi]

Wow, some great replies there. I think this is the frame of mind I should be aiming for:

Also, all those racist hicks really aren’t worth the energy it would take to worry about what they say.

Reading the Murdoch papers and watching those bloody current affairs programs has a negative effect on intelligence.

My partner was raised Catholic, she's very much non-practicing now but totally loves Christmas. I've been to a few midnight Masses with her, they were quite good. I also see it as celebrating the summer/winter solstice and a time to see family and be thankful etc.

Yeah, people really need to learn the dfference between migrant and refugee. I work with a pretty diverse mix of people from different cultures/countrys, I like hearing about other parts of the world and different religious beliefs (I'm a bit obsessed with religion). Moving to the city was a bit of a culture shock for me at first, I was raised in country Victoria haha. Enjoy living in the city now. My racial background is migrant and part Aboriginal going back a few generations.

Mushroomass?! Spare seat at your table Bretloth? Terrence McKenna would be proud.

Jambi

[woof woof woof]

around this time of year my Gf starts calling me 'the Grinch' or 'Scrooge' hehehe

i think even non-christians can share or participate in the spirit of this holiday and that should also be the case the other way around as most religions have their essence is based on unconditional love and understanding.

it's just a matter of opening up to each other,... and if they dont feel like it,... I wont hold it against anyone unless someone moans & bitches about it. then it's "STFU!"

[Alice]

Mushroomas LOL, that's awesome

[Amazonian]

I was going to say what i liked about Christmas.... but i just read a post that GoOnThen has just made in another thread... He said..

Some of us actually enjoy the whole Christmas thing. Spending time with family and friends, giving and receiving gifts, having a a few days of work and the best part seeing the excitement building in my kids every day now leading up to Christmas .

^^^He took the words right out of my mouth/thoughts outa my head .But instead of a few days off work, I get 5 weeks of alarm clock free zone, how good is that.. Its a great time to just bum around with your family . Yeah , Christmas is alright.

What i don't like about Christmas is the extremely long cues , and lack of car park spaces.

I wonder if the people that don't like Christmas, are the ones who don't have any kids?

PS. I have a thing for sparkly things, (i think it stems from a childhood memory of the metallic flakes in my Dragster seat?) so all the tinsel and glitter is gooooood

[Bretloth]

It's nearly that time again! Getting excited

[ThunderIdeal]

i reckon grinches are more likely the product of growing up in a christmassy family, which, perhaps, tried to retain the christmassy ways even when nobody is a kid anymore.

true for this grinch anyway.

[chnt]

I AM THE FUCKING ANTICHRIST GRINCH MOTHER FUCKERS.

i wanna eat your children

[Sallubrious]

I AM THE FUCKING ANTICHRIST GRINCH MOTHER FUCKERS.

i wanna eat your children

 

Maybe leave some aya and hash cookies out for santa instead of beer and Christmas cake.

[chnt]

on the extremely fortunate and unlikely occasion that i had either of those things, the last "person" i would share them with would be a piece of shit cunt like that child molesting fuck bag.

[Seldom]

how dare you.

[GregKasarik]

I don't see any problem with celebrating Christmas publicly. People enjoy it and most of us have fond childhood memories of it, even if we no longer celebrate it.

I'm not aware of any boat people, or refugees telling us that we can't celebrate Christmas (linky anyone?), but if they are I think they should be ignored, as it seems like a rather totalitarian imposition to prevent people from celebrating their religious holidays.

Councils should be allowed to decorate as they see fit and within reason. Decorations are expensive (hundreds of thousands of dollars - 2.6 million if you are Melbourne City Council) and not always justified given current funding pressures. The Herald-Sun ran a trashy article bagging "killjoy councils" for being "miserly" with decorations, failing to acknowledge that some might prefer to staff their local library for a year, rather than splurge on decorations for a month.

[Sallubrious]

I took my son for a walk yesterday and we walked past a house with Christmas lights on the front lawn.

They had Santa, reindeer and candy canes and they also had the three wise men and baby Jesus diorama, talk about mixed messages.

My son asked me who the baby was in the diorama and I told him it was Jesus (we decided not to push any religious ideals on our kids, they can make up their own mids when they are old enough to understand it)

When I told him the baby was Jesus he asked me who he is, so I told him "I'm not really sure but you don't hear much about him until Christmas, maybe he's one of Santa's mates"

Last night we were having dinner and Christmas came up. My son said he wanted to leave some food out for the reindeer so I said we will have to leave some beer out for Santa. My son asked me why we need to leave beer out and I told him "if you can get Santa drunk enough he might pass out and then you get to keep all the presents in his sleigh" so he decided we need to leave lots of beer out for Santa this year.

I asked him about Jesus and if he thinks he might come too, he said "we won't leave any beer out for him", I also asked him how the three wise men would get here and he didn't know, so I suggested that they could have a magic carpet and fly here like Santa. I said lot's of those Persian dudes have flying carpets and they are wise men, so I don't think that they will walk.

I normally don't lie to my kids, but this is the silly season so why not have bit of fun with the kids?

Edited December 23, 2011 by SallyD

[curaezipirid]

These days even for the most hard core Christians, Christmas is an expression of our culture more than it is a religious experience, and yet, a cultural experience, with an accompanying story, that makes it a potential religious vehicle. We may or may not choose to place our inner truth of what is meaningful into the vehicle of Christmas, but we are kind of trapped with having to experience a public holiday, and perhaps also family's finding it necessary to face togetherness together, and possibly food indulgences to resist, but as far as public holidays go, I love the excuse of spending every spare cent upon gift giving; and so whether or not I may praise Jesus in with the best and worst of other Christians, so-called Christians, Christian wannabes, real fairdinkum Christians, Islamo-phobic Christians, Islamo-centric Christians, etc etc etc, is a matter held between me and God, and Jesus.

[curaezipirid]

as for that Santa dude, well whoever imagined his name an anagram of Satan, might as well be him, . . .

and it is also culturally important for children to experience somethings which have a mysterious edge, . . .

will santa come

yeah he always comes

besides it is mum and dad really

but will our parents be able to afford Christmas this year, AGAIN . . .

yeah, well, they always do, . . . I don't know how they do it, but they always can at Christmas

either way

take it or leave it

it's all the same

[nabraxas]

in relation to christmas, this argument gets even more absurd. the history of christmas is very vague, as it appears to have been (like easter) assimilated from a european pagan holiday at some point and probably isn't to do with jesus at all. im yet to see a biblical passage that says 'jesus was born on december 25,

Sol Invictus ("Invincible Sun") was the official sun god of the later Roman empire. In 274 Aurelian made it an official cult alongside the traditional Roman cults. Scholars disagree whether the new deity was a refoundation of the ancient Latin cult of Sol,^[1] a revival of the cult of Elagabalus^[2] or completely new.^[3] The god was favored by emperors after Aurelian and appeared on their coins until Constantine.^[4] The last inscription referring to Sol Invictus dates to 387 AD^[5] and there were enough devotees in the 5th century that Augustine found it necessary to preach against them.^[6] Modern scholars debate whether the December 25 date of Christmas was selected to correspond with the Roman festival of Dies Natalis Solis Invicti or "Birthday of Sol Invictus."^[7]

The Philocalian calendar of 354 AD gives a festival of "Natalis Invicti" on 25 December. There is limited evidence that this festival was celebrated before the mid 4th century AD.^[39][40]

Whether the 'Sol Invictus' festival "has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date" of Christmas (as per the 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia^[41]) or not has been called into question by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, who challenged this theory by arguing that a December 25 date was determined simply by calculating nine months after March 25, regarded as the day of Jesus’ conception (the Feast of the Annunciation).^[42]

In the 5th century, Pope Leo I (the Great) spoke of how the celebration of Christ's birth coincided with the sun's position increasing in the sky in several sermons on the Feast of the Nativity. Here is an excerpt from his 26th sermon:

 

But this Nativity which is to be adored in heaven and on earth is suggested to us by no day more than this when, with the early light still shedding its rays on nature, there is borne in upon our senses the brightness of this wondrous mystery.

 

According to the 1967 New Catholic Encyclopedia, a standard library reference, in an article on Constantine the Great: "Besides, the Sol Invictus had been adopted by the Christians in a Christian sense, as demonstrated in the Christ as Apollo-Helios in a mausoleum (c. 250) discovered beneath St. Peter's in the Vatican." Indeed "...from the beginning of the 3rd century "Sun of Justice" appears as a title of Christ".^[43]

Some consider this to be in opposition to Sol Invictus^{[citation needed]}. Some see an allusion to Malachi 4:2.

The Syriac bishop Jacob Bar-Salibi wrote in the 12th century: "It was a custom of the Pagans to celebrate on the same 25 December the birthday of the Sun, at which they kindled lights in token of festivity. In these solemnities and revelries the Christians also took part. Accordingly when the doctors of the Church perceived that the Christians had a leaning to this festival, they took counsel and resolved that the true Nativity should be solemnised on that day." ^[44]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sol_Invictus

Yule or Yuletide ("Yule time") is a winter period and event that was initially celebrated by the historical Germanic peoples and some neighboring peoples as a religious festival, though it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas (December 25). The earliest references to the event are by way of indigenous month names (lasting between what is now mid-November and early January), whereas the event may have been centered on or around Midwinter (winter solstice). Scholars have connected the celebration to the Wild Hunt, the god Odin, increased supernatural activity, and the pagan Anglo-Saxon Modranicht.

Terms with an etymological equivalent to Yule are used in the Nordic countries for the Christian Christmas (with its religious rites), but also for other holidays of the season. Yule is also used to a lesser extent in English-speaking countries to refer to Christmas. Customs such as the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar, Yule singing, and others stem from Yule. The non-religious treat Yule as an entirely secular tradition. A number of Neopagans have introduced their own rites.

Much of the folklore surrounding the Twelve Nights of Christmas is taken to reflect customs and beliefs connected to the Yule season. Thus, the season is associated with the Wild Hunt, a ghostly procession in the winter sky in continental tradition, while in Scandinavian tradition there is increased activity of draugar—undead beings who walk the earth. Wotan is attested as leading the Wild Hunt; in Scandinavia Odin also bears the name of Jólnir.^[12] Modranicht, an event focused on collective female beings attested by Bede as having occurred among the pagan Anglo-Saxons on what is now Christmas Eve, has been seen as further evidence of a fertility event during the Yule period.^[13] The traditions of the Yule log, Yule goat, Yule boar (Sonargöltr) stilll reflected in the Christmas ham, Yule singing, and others stem from Yule customs, and customs which Simek takes as "indicat[ing] the significance of the feast in pre-Christian times."^[14]

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule

Christmas or Yultide has so many pagan associations that really strict Christians like the Jehovah's Witnesses wont celebrate it.

Everything from the holly, ivy, mistletoe, christmas tree, yule log, the christmas lights, santa, reindeer, gift giving, feasting, drinking & celebration in the mid-winter etc. are all ov pagan origin.

It kind ov looses it's meaning in Australia, but it would have been an important psychological event for northern European people back in the day when they lived on what they could produce themselves, a festival in the middle ov the hardest part ov the year when everyone could come together & share what they had. A boost to get them through the rest ov the winter.

I don't know about racial memory, but that spirit ov celebrating light in the middle ov the darkest days still has a powerful effect in the Northern hemisphere.

And fuck it anyway, i'd celebrate Hanukkah, Diwali, Eid Al-Adha, Tết, Chinese New Year, Buddahs birthday & any other event if i was invited to....any excuse for a celebration.

[etherealdrifter]

'And fuck it anyway, i'd celebrate Hanukkah, Diwali, Eid Al-Adha, Tết, Chinese New Year, Buddahs birthday & any other event if i was invited to....any excuse for a celebration"

^ i agree nabaxas. these holidays are what you make of them

i will gladly sign up to any celebration activity. celebrate! be happy! life sucks and flicks dirty cards at you all the time-why focus on those cards anyway?

it's about how we are ALL human, intertwined.

i for one don't feel negative about these people celeBRATing anything that provides an opportunity for

>rational thought

>stimulating convo

>togetherness

has nothing to do with Christianity et al

i hope you are well nabraxas,

my(and others thoughts) are with you brother

[incognito]

I miss your rainbow eyes sexiest drifter. Siighhh

Anything that has 4 types of baked/smoked mammal on the table is a.ok with me. Possibly horrific and beyond all imagination damaging to Ones divine karma, but undeniably tasty.

Edited February 19, 2012 by incognito