The bushfire stupidity

[Torsten]

Stupid stupid fucks who constantly risk the lives of firefighters and emergency crews because they are too bloody lazy and stupid to clean up and prepare BEFORE bushfires.

I have nothing but admiration for the volunteer and paid emergency crews who constantly risk their lives. My beef is with the stupid idiots who want to live right next to flammable trees and then expect these heroic people to risk their lives for their stupidity. I always thought it was the fact that disaster fires only happen every 10 years and political memory only lasts about 5 years, so usually by the next disaster everyone has forgotten the previous one. But the last decade there have been fire disasters in one state or another almost every year. And still people and politicians seem incapable of being prepared.

Ashwednesday killed a lot of people in the adelaide hills and new building codes there require simple things like automatic roof sprinklers. The conditions in the adelaide hills are not unique however, so why haven't those building codes been amde compulsory in all fire prone states?

It doesn't take much to make your home or farm ready for fires. Fires have been an integral part of australia for a lot longer than whites have been here and we have completely failed at managing and adapting to this condition. So much for being the smart species.

I reckon farms and houses should only be protected by firefighters if they have passed a fire safety inspection. Why should these volunteers put their lives at risk for the sake of property value if the owners did not do their bit? Fuckem! Let those houses burn and save the resources for those who actually made an effort. Or divert the resources to managing the fire front rather than crews babysitting fucking million dollar mansions that don't even bother installing a $3000 watering system!

So many people have no options and rely on firefighters. Elderly people or people that can't get their property firesafe due to various regulations should be given priority. So should those who have made a strong effort to minimise the risk to firefighters. I'd even prefer firebreaks for wildlife escape and even stock rescue because these are all things that are difficult to impossible to prepare for. Making a house fireproof is quite easy and not even that expensive. It could probably be paid for from insurance premium savings.

It is sad that quite a few people died today. Many probably died in the process of dealing with the consequences of their own laziness and stupidity if previous disasters are anything to go by. Let's not make the mistake of calling them heroes just because they died fighting fires with inappropriate means and timing.

"A man is in a critical condition after being burnt over half of his body when he attempted to move a friend's stock away from the fire in the Coleraine area, in Victoria's east, while he was wearing only shorts and thongs."

I mean WTF?

When I lived in Taree I was in a fire prone area. First time I had ever lived in the bush and first time I had ever been scared of fire. There were a handful of firefighters in the district who had control of the tankers and who knew all the tracks etc, but whenever there was a fire in our valley you would get 20 or 30 guys helping the 4 or 5 volunteers from that area. And they'd be on the spot within minutes, with reinforcements arriving as needed. All of us had spent a few hours in fire training so we knew the basics like how to dress and what tools to bring. This gave the whole community a sense of security as we knew we could protect ourselves, not just because of expertise, but because of the strength of community. This was one fucked up bitter twisted community in every other respect, but when it came to fires you'd even go to your worst enemies place to help and then expect a beer afterwards.

I don't understand why this isn't the model used in the rest of the country. Skilled people with authority to make the decisions, but an army of semi skilled helpers to make the work lighter. I think we are more and more progressing towards a society where we expect everything to be done for us and where we blame other when it isn't. That's fine for some things, but in natural disasters it is usually numbers that count. I don't see why a town of 2000 people which would be about 500 able bodied men and women can't defend itself against a scrub fire for example.

I can just see that in the next few days we will hear about which authority is to blame, and how so many heroic and innocent people died. I am sure there are some, but like I said, from past experiences the majority of the dead will be helpless victims or idiots. We should make sure to learn how to separate the two or we are just going to make the same mistakes over and over.

And before you believe all the heroics, don't forget that this disaster was well forecast. This did not come as a surprise to anyone who was paying attention.

EDIT:

after that negative rant above I went to this page and it nearly made me cry.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/victoria/2009/02/o...-help---or.html

[mac]

We also need better land management, burning off excess fuel during the cooler or damper months late winter early spring

Similar to the way the Aborigines used to do it, then the fires are not as intense, less damaging because of less fuel & many natives have adapted to use small grass fires to to set or help germinate their seed

Edited February 7, 2009 by mac

[gerbil]

It'll be the same next time and the next, very predictable, it's the society we live in, highly uneducated and jaded about what really needs to be done. Good old fear campaigns, i mean even the 7:30 report are playing dramatised music to the fire footage. But fires? across the board mentality i reckon, the model fits our 'drug war' perfectly.

Am a big one on the fuel load and the management mac and the idiocy of it all, on a private contract we were cutting fire breaks well into summer with an often panic striken state government employer trying to get the work done before too late. And this is a piddly line put around highly mismanaged vegetation LOL good luck getting the break to work.

But as insane and obvious as it all is, i'm not suprised, just humled more to the fact as to this crazed system i've been brought up in and apparently need to live.

It's like we talk about how bad something is that is coming up, knowing full well it's coming, have some down time, let it hit, then be voyeuristicly panicked and self pitying about how we feel for everything, then forget about it, let the fires go out and wait for the next years round of talking about what is coming up. LOL LMFAO ah i need some sleep.

and yeah seeing people walking around in thongs and shorts LMAO don't get me started, it's like they are proud to be interviewed on the news the ones i saw. But again imo i relate it to societies education and level of consciousness for themselves and their environment.

Fires not too far, but decent distance from us, still lotsa small ones started/starting/controlled/out in a few suburbs away;

Hope anyone involved is safe and well.

[PD.]

These fires are fucked. Once again im choking on smoke filled air and one of my favourite winter time haunts is burning as we speak, native areas and pine plantations areas are already gone. Not many ppl live in the bush there but the valleys are steep and DEEP, once the fires are in there the only way they stop is when all the fuel is burnt.

Thats the way she goes.....

[Legba]

I'm wonderin' why the air force hasn't bin brought into this 'war' on flames. Can't be that hard for the air farce to rig a C-17 to drop retardant instead of rockets.

They can do it to a jumbo...

[Garbage]

You reckon the insurance companies should cough up for firefighters?

[baphomet]

Personally I'd rather be burned alive than see them droping brominated flame retardants or any other PCB type shit.

[Mr Stay Puft]

Unfortunately this is the country we have chosen to call home... where without bushfires such as these the majestic Eucalyptus regnans forests of the devastated Marysvillie area would soon become extinct...

The loss of life is extremely sad and unfortunate... these people need to realise a house can be rebuilt, but a life can't!

[husk]

seems it was prolly arson and where is this assumption that 'they weren't ready' coming from??

Edited February 8, 2009 by husk

[Undergrounder]

Baphomet your cattleya is turning me on.

[Torsten]

where is this assumption that 'they weren't ready' coming from??

because if you are ready then it is VERY unlikely that your house will catch alight and almost impossible for you to get killed.

Ready means that the fuel is reduced well before the fire season so that it can't reach the high temperatures that are needed to flash houses.

Ready means that if you live within reach of bushfires that you have roof sprinklers, a pump, and a water reserve.

Ready means that the paddocks at the back of your house are slashed or burnt.

Ready means that you have a safe place to hide for 10 or 20 mins until the fire has passed, so that you can definitely survive and possibly save your house.

Ready means that if you live near excess fuel that could not be removed, that you have the skill and permission to backburn when the time comes.

In one case 6 houses went up in flames from a fucking grass fire! How ridiculous is that?

That town that got wiped out [Maryville?] - have a look on google earth where it is. Most of the town is surrounded by open fields. All they needed to do was to light the grass a few minutes before the fire got there and most houses and people would have probably survived. Reducing the fuel by a small amount can make a huge difference. Timber flashes at nearly 700degC and a firestorm front usually only has about 800degC, so if you can remove enough fuel to drop the temp by 100 or 200 degC then you have a good chance of saving your house.

When I went to Uni studying science we were given a special lesson before our first field trip. The first rule was to ALWAYS carry a can of fuel and matches with you. A burnt out patch is the safest place to take refuge and if you can't find a burnt out patch then make one.

People have died in houses that were surrounded by grassland. WTF? It takes 10 minutes to create a safe space in a grass paddock.

And what about all those people who decided to drive somewhere at the last minute? How many people got killed in that 4 car pile up? How can you call these people 'ready'?

These people weren't ready, they were naive and ignorant. Like I said, million dollar mansions in the middle of bushfire districts and they don't bother to put a bunker or sealed cellar into the house, let alone roof sprinklers or firebreaks.

And don't forget that we are all paying for this. The emergency aid money and the increased insurance premiums will affect all of us and we are all paying for this stupidity. And don't get me wrong, there are people who really need this money and who really need our help because they had no other options. But the majority have no one but themselves and their lazy and naive mindset to blame. It shits me that the community constantly has to pay for preventable disasters - whether this is through their volunteers or their wallets.

[baphomet]

Baphomet your cattleya is turning me on.

I bet you say that to all the boys

Edited February 8, 2009 by baphomet

[Undergrounder]

Dude chill out. So not everyone in Australia is as "fire aware" as you, go easy. I seriously doubt everyone who died was "naive and lazy" and i'm certain not everyone who survived were able to because they went through some fire safety course. You've got a point about communities being responsible for educating people about fires, but you go to far by condemning the dead just because they're not as knowledgeable as you.

[Undergrounder]

I bet you say that to all the boys

Only such delicate flowers as yourself baphomet.

[Torsten]

Dude chill out. So not everyone in Australia is as "fire aware" as you, go easy. I seriously doubt everyone who died was "naive and lazy" and i'm certain not everyone who survived were able to because they went through some fire safety course. You've got a point about communities being responsible for educating people about fires, but you go to far by condemning the dead just because they're not as knowledgeable as you.

The 'go easy' attitude is what causes these disasters year after year.

You don't have to have every individual in a community being fire aware, but you need to have the community as a whole being fire aware. ie we need to stop sticking our heads in the sand about this problem and create solutions that will prevent such disasters rather than just crying about them afterwards. No point chilling out about it cos if changes aren't made immediately then in a few months everyone has forgotten again and there will be no political will to make difficult decisions. I mean, what political or community changes were made in victoria after the ash wednesday fires? NONE!

This is a community problem and it needs to be dealt with at a community level rather than at an individual level, because individuals are obviously too apathetic to care before it happens.

I am not condemning the dead. They've already paid the ultimate price for the lack of individual and community preparedness. I am just warning people not to get sucked into the emotional media drama that will play out over the next days and weeks, which will largely ignore the root of the problem and hence will lay the foundation for the next disaster. It's much easier to blame the fury of nature rather than the deep seated shortcomings of building codes, community education, vegetation management, town planning, and various other factors. We have the technology, the science, and the resources to deal with these issues, but for some reason we don't.

According to wikipedia the ashwednesday fires caused 1.3 billion dollars in damage [adjusted to 2007 values]. That would have been enough to retrofit 400,000 homes with roof sprinklers, which would have been more than 100% of the fire prone homes in victoria.

There are disasters we can't do much about, but fire isn't one of them.

[Garbage]

Ignoring the fools who choose to live in harms way for a minute,was the inferno impressive?

[watertrade]

I have to agree with Torsten on this one. People shouldn't die in bushfires.

its a terrible tragady - but from the little I know, and from the people I know who know a lot. you are either prepared or you are not there.

[Conan Troutman]

While having a fire plan def can help (save lives anyway)...I think a lot of the trouble is from the state of the bush.

At least where Iam (Otways), litter on the ground is very substantial, the most I can remember in my short life, knee high in most places and Id imagine it to be even worse where the Gippsland fires are (god knows its a lot drier).

In cases like this the fires can literally jump hundreds of metres spot burning some places but leaving other untouched, certainly nothing you can do when the sky rains embers on your house.

[FancyPants]

After the Sydney Christmas bushfires in I think it was 2001, they made big noises about people doing things to help guard against massive fire damage. Clear litter around house, clear gutters, don't have too many (none-preferably) high-fuel trees near the house, etc etc. People have insanely short memories so perhaps they should be warned of it every year around late winter, early spring.

You know what's fucked up? They tried to back-burn in 2002 and sooo many people kicked up huge stinks about fires being deliberately lit near them! Most of them have absolutely NO idea about the purpose of back-burning! Greater Sydney metropolitan area or not, the fact that too many people continue to ALLOW to be ignorant in the face of such disaster is deplorable. I'm not quite going to go as far as Torsten said and blame them all outright for being ignorant and lazy, we'll never know if there were good people who tried to do the right thing and were just victim to others' irresponsibility.

There's also a hell of a lot of insanity regarding the cause of the fires too. So many people are saying flat-out that it's all the arsonists' fault. Well hello, this is Australia during summer. The air is dry and HOT, sometimes almost crackling with electricity in the air with electrical storms brewing around. It doesn't NEED human hands to start something so devastating. I think some of them are turning a blind eye to the randomness of nature. A human can be punished for this crime, mother nature can not. Some people need blood and for the blame to be removed from themselves.

I only heard about all this on the radio last night on the way back home from a big party on Saturday so it was all pretty shocking to hear.

Best of wishes to those trying to regain their lives and livelihoods. My condolences to those who have lost theirs. I hope everyone takes this harsh lesson so that it may never happen again.

[strangebrew]

That town that got wiped out [Maryville?] - have a look on google earth where it is. Most of the town is surrounded by open fields. All they needed to do was to light the grass a few minutes before the fire got there and most houses and people would have probably survived

My understanding was that Marysville backs onto a mountain, State Forest? & that the fire tore down off of it within minutes & that no one knew it was coming. I don't know that even if installed, sprinkler systems could save houses in those conditions, I have heard gutters filled with water evaporated in no time.

When I went to Uni studying science we were given a special lesson before our first field trip. The first rule was to ALWAYS carry a can of fuel and matches with you. A burnt out patch is the safest place to take refuge and if you can't find a burnt out patch then make one.

How do you stop this from spreading? Or is this last resort tactics?

The worst of it is when the fires are deliberately lit. I heard some mention of fire fighters putting out fires only to find them being restarted later.

[Undergrounder]

By all accounts the fire front was moving about a km in four minutes, the radiant heat was so severe houses were just exploding before the fire even reached them. Stories of people trying to put out fires with buckets only for the bucket to melt in their hands. The ember storm was so severe embers would flow into every crack and crevice, going in the cracks between the door-jams, etc. The fire had stolen all the oxygen people couldn't breath. People died in cars trying to outrun it (the tyres just melted and stranded them), people died in baths trying to protect themselves, people just died no matter how savvy they were. A sprinkler system on the roof and a box of matches in your pocket would have been useless.

Strangebrew: I guess it's a last minute thing, there's already a fire upwind of you, so you light one at your feet, it will burn out a patch going away from you, you wait until it's moved away and then take shelter in the burnt area behind it.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Undergrounder

[tardistestpilot]

By all accounts the fire front was moving about a km in four minutes, the radiant heat was so severe houses were just exploding before the fire even reached them. Stories of people trying to put out fires with buckets only for the bucket to melt in their hands. The ember storm was so severe embers would flow into every crack and crevice, going in the cracks between the door-jams, etc. The fire had stolen all the oxygen people couldn't breath. People died in cars trying to outrun it (the tyres just melted and stranded them), people died in baths trying to protect themselves, people just died no matter how savvy they were. A sprinkler system on the roof and a box of matches in your pocket would have been useless.

from what i have heard first hand from friends and family this has been the case..this was no back yard hedge fire more like a fire storm

Strangebrew: I guess it's a last minute thing, there's already a fire upwind of you, so you light one at your feet, it will burn out a patch going away from you, you wait until it's moved away and then take shelter in the burnt area behind it.

be caarefull about casually carrying matches and a can of fuel around with you down here at the moment it will not look good!!!

[~shameless~]

I do believe a percentage of fires that are arson attacks are actually lit by sick as all hell CFA volunters

I once met an absolute numb nut who voluntered for the CFA.

Find these turds and give em a public stoning i say!!

Marysville is quite a foresty sort of area, would have been absolutely terrifying, close family friends lost an 80 year old homestead @ Narbethong, another close freinds missus had their grand parents house destroyed @ Marysville , no time too grab the photos, lucky the CFA were on hand, they could do nothing but simply tell people to get to certain points around Alexandra that had been estimated to be safe, luckly. -It was like the sky was fire!

If the CFA didnt realise how futile thier efforts were, more lifes would have been lost forsure

These locals ( in fact every one) owes them alot.

I

[Torsten]

strangebrew - the blackening out of a safety area is a last minute thing. well, not strictly last minute, but rather early enough to be useful and late enough so as not to contribute to the fire problem itself. it is best done in grassy areas without trees as the fire will move quickly, but even in the forest, burning the lower fuel may reduce the crown temperature enough for you to survive inside your car.

My point about Marysville being surrounded by grassland was not that this is where the fire came from, but that this is how it spread and kept going. Yes, it came down the forested mountain and the people right at the edge of town probably didn't have much of a chance to defend their homes. But rather than drive onto the main roads going through bush and get caught in the fires there they could have cleared/blackened a grassed area and assembled there. In fact, if you are in a car you can drive through grassfires [directly into the fire front] without loss of life. Quite a few people did this on their farms in these areas and survived, but the town folk seemed to be unaware of this option and made bad choices as a result. The fact that only 25% of marysville faces forest should have been an advantage rather than a disaster.

Undergrounder - the only 3 houses at the fire edge in kingslake that are still standing are 3 neighbours who all installed fire hose reels and independent pumps. $3000 saved their homes and their lives. That's just 2% of the value of a cheap house, or 2 years of insurance premium. Garden hoses just won't do as they can't deliver enough water to actually impact on the temperatures.

Bushfires can move extremely fast, but the faster they come the faster they also go. Many houses burn because of small fires that start in the house, usually from flying embers, rather than the actual fire front. Roof sprinklers eliminate most ember attacks. They also put out any fire that takes hold so that often only the side of the house that is facing the fire front actually gets fire damaged. I am not saying that roof sprinklers on an old wooden house with no other preparation will make any difference, but usually people who install roof sprinklers are aware enough of the fire problem to also take other precautions. I also don't think modern wooden houses had much of a chance in some of these areas, but if you own a wooden home in a bushfire area and you get the 'last chance to leave' call then you're an idiot if you stay. I am specifically referring to the brick homes and especially to the treechanger's modern brick houses.

btw, the only street in kinglake that was untouched is a street where a couple of farmers used their dozers to cut fire breaks in the last minutes of the approaching fire. If they have to do something like that in the last minutes with the fire front already bearing down on them, then that indicates to me that they weren't ready and that there was plenty that could have been done to be ready.

I am delighted to see that the Vic government has announced a royal commission into these fires. Many of the senior emergency services staff have already stated that they are dismayed about the fact that nothing seems to have changed since the ash wednesday fires, so I think there is some real potential for some changes in the future. Royal commissions are not that easy to sweep under the carpet.

[Torsten]

be caarefull about casually carrying matches and a can of fuel around with you down here at the moment it will not look good!!!

how silly. arsonists don't use fuel, and every smoker carries a lighter or matches.