MP calls for head scarf ban

[apothecary]

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,16412...232-421,00.html

LIBERAL MPs Bronwyn Bishop and Sophie Panopolous have continued to the Federal Government's clamp down on Islamic practices, with Bronwyn Bishop today adding her voice to Sophie Panopolous' call for head scarves to be banned.

Ms Bishop backed the view of outspoken Liberal MP Sophie Panopoulos, who last week said she was concerned about Muslim women not showing their faces when they posed for photographic identification.

Ms Bishop today said the issue had been forced upon Australia, which was experiencing a clash of cultures.

"In an ideal society you don't ban anything," she told the Seven Network.

"But this has really been forced on us because what we're really seeing in our country is a clash of cultures and indeed, the headscarf is being used as a sort of iconic item of defiance," she told Channel Seven.

"I'm talking about in state schools. If people are in Islamic schools and that's their uniform, that's fine. In private life, that's fine."

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But Muslim Women's Association president Maha Krayem Abdo said such a ban was dangerous, and that girls should be free to follow their religious beliefs at any Australian school.

She agreed that in an ideal society nothing would be banned and said Australia had a leadership role to play on such issues.

"I think it's so dangerous to go down that path if we think ... that in an ideal society we would not ban anything," she said.

"And I think Australia takes on a leadership role in the world, that it is a fair-go society.

"I don't see anything contravening that fair go and equality that Australia strives for – so the hijab, no way would it in any shape or form, contravene that."

Ms Krayem Abdo said she found it difficult to comprehend the government's stated support for the freedom of Iraq, yet Ms Bishop's proposition was to prevent Australian Muslims from exercising freedom of religious rights.

Last year France's parliament voted overwhelmingly to outlaw the wearing of Islamic headscarves in state schools, although concerns remain over whether that decision merely deepened divisions within French society.

Australian Democrats leader Senator Lyn Allison has labelled Ms Bishop's comments as "deliberately divisive" and they encouraged religious and cultural separation.

"I think BB is being deliberately divisive. I think that it is insensitive that young women for religious reasons who chose to wear a headscarf are somehow provoking a response from others," she said.

"It seems to me that by saying that young people who go to state schools wish to wear a head scarf they can't but they can wear a head scarf if they go to a religious school.

"What that says is that we want to be separated. It doesn't say we want integration and that we want to improve relations between cultural groups and religious groups.

"It says if you are religious, you should go to a religious school.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson said last week that he did not support a ban on headscarves.

[teonanacatl]

fucking nuts i tell ya. lol imagine the christain told to take his/her cross of their necklace. is there really any point in taking photos of them with their scarf's off if they always wear them???

[Leo^]

lol exactly, and its not like they are covering their faces, the face is still clearly visible.

[Legba]

i think this would be a good precedent to set.

its about time we had a chance to change bishops hair style. shouldnt politicians show their preached dedication to peace in their dress?

doesnt everyone recognise dreadlocks standing for a peaceful philosophy? we must force them to wear dreads. im sure theyll have no objections being told they must wear dreads or leave the country.

oh yeah, its nothin personal. i love poliTITianS... as they might say it.

[nabraxas]

Bronwyn Bishop and Sophie Panopolous were democratically elected, so their opinions must be representative ov greater australia.

[Darklight]

what we're really seeing in our country is a clash of cultures

She's right, she's right... there is a clash of cultures but it has nothing to do with headwear. The clash of cultures is between those who believe personal freedom allows for a safer and more stable society, and those who reckon giving up personal freedoms creates more stability and safety for all ( especially scared people )

Anyone know of a website cataloguing exactly which laws have changed since say the Sydney Olympics? I heard all sorts of guff about laws being passed restricting gathering or protests, and I paid not a lot of attention to it, being out in the bush. But now I'm interested in the recent changes to privacy, freedom and right to march legislation etc- I'd be very interested in what we've lost- and what they're planning to take away next

Sheesh the whole Lib govt is a fucken embarrassment, what about that stupid summit Howard held with selected portions of the Muslim community. I mean if ever there was a contrived way to piss people off, he found it

[-YT-]

"Anyone know of a website cataloguing exactly which laws have changed since say the Sydney Olympics? I heard all sorts of guff about laws being passed restricting gathering or protests, and I paid not a lot of attention to it, being out in the bush. But now I'm interested in the recent changes to privacy, freedom and right to march legislation etc- I'd be very interested in what we've lost- and what they're planning to take away next"

Nice post Darklight. I am also very interested in these new laws etc. espcially the anti-terrorism laws which were only bought in for 5yrs ( not sure on exact length ) and now its a permanent Law... I think alot of laws have recently been passed regarding our freedoms (again using the terror draw card) , and more to come with the coalition gaining control of the senate...

Oh and the clash of cultures such a lame explantation, isnt OZ a multicultural society? with many ppl from all cultures and parts of the world calling this Great Southern Land home so doesn't that mean we've always had some sort of Culture clash?

[ 30. August 2005, 11:41: Message edited by: Young Tripper ]

[occidentalis]

Just saw this on TV

The only clash of cultures is the one we create by trying to limit the freedoms of any member of a group of people to identify as part of that group.

Someone should re-inter Bronwyn Bishop.

[apothecary]

Federal Liberal MP Bronwyn Bishop is refusing to back away from calls to ban Muslim girls from wearing headscarves in public schools.

Prime Minister John Howard has ruled out such a ban, saying it is impractical and he does not support it.

"If you ban a headscarf you might, for consistencies' sake, have to ban a yumulke, a turban," he said.

"It does become rather difficult and rather impractical."

But Ms Bishop continues to support comments from her Victorian colleague, Sophie Panopoulos, saying the headscarf is symbolic of a clash of cultures and it is time to take a stand.

"I think, from all the emails and the phonecalls I'm receiving, people are relieved that they're allowed to talk about it because it's been pent up," she said.

"They have felt that in their own country they are being disadvantaged.

"I've got emails referring to the fact where there are kindergartens where you can't have Christmas carols, an argument that was swept under the carpet when it first occurred because people were accused of being racist."

New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland, the Northern Territory and South Australia have already rejected the idea of banning headscarfs.

Despite disagreeing with his colleagues, Mr Howard has defended their right to call for the ban.

[Torsten]

To think that that horrendous woman was at one point being groomed to become prime minister!! Lucky she fucked up so badly as a minister or this might still be on the cards.

Personally I am not a great believer in the school uniform. It is always touted as the 'great equaliser', supposed to make all kids look equal at school and hence promote a classless society. Many other countries such as france, germany and many otheer europeans) don't have school uniforms, and never had them, and yet have much less of a class system than england which is the country that invented and holds onto them.

Being classless - or at least less of a class system - has little to do with school uniforms and imposing uniforms does not change the attitude to class structure. Hence, using the uniformity idea to suppress religious 'class' is just as futile.

I am not great fan of religions. They are the root of most violence and bigotry around the world in all age groups, and the sooner people can learn to live without religion the sooner we can get on with developing as a human race. But on the other hand I am also a firm believer in individuality, so the idea of being told what to wear (or especially what NOT to wear) really gets my back up.

IN a thread a few months ago on this forum we were all gettign upset about a US state trying to pass laws about pants being worn too low (and showing underwear). Such laws are quite obviously ridiculous no matter how much you dislike the look of 'lowriders'. The discussion on headscarves is no different. Just put yourself into the shoes of the person who's freedoms are being attacked. Does this not fuel resentment rather than create a level playing field?

People like BB are too caught up in their conservative agenda to really see the damage they are causing. Her comments have probably done more damage to our society in the last week than all the years of headscarve wearing combined

[nabraxas]

i went to a very good grammer school in england.

my mother was a single parent & most ov my clothes were op-shop or hand-me-downs.

there were alot ov rich kids at my school, & at the ages ov 11-15 fashion is so important .

if it wasn't for the school uniform i believe i would have been up for large amounts ov ridicule.

[Amulte]

 

quote:

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She agreed that in an ideal society nothing would be banned

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YEAH! Legalise it all eh?

anyone seen that south park episode where the christmas play gets altered over and over cuz the jews are offended at this and the christis ar offended by that.

the play results in having nothing to do with x-mas and all the kids dressed in grey bodysuits and the music is like "happy happy happy, everybody happy. And i turn my eye to the sun and the sun burns my eyes as i stain to see the bird, happy happy happy."

i say if you see somthing you dont like then close your eyes for a sec. ffs lets run out and bann everything and put a tax on fire & air.

[Legba]

quote:

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put a tax on fire & air

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eva heard of th carbon tax?

[Benzito]

These 'head scarves' have been worn for, at least, hundreds of years as a religious symbol.

As a means of worship.

As part of a people's day-to-day spiritual lives.

They are not an 'iconic item of defiance'!

White Australians are just stupid rednecks who have only just noticed that Islam exists, in the past few years.

White people act like these 'head scarves' (Birkah?) have only just popped up in the past few years. You were just all too busy in the pub to notice that people we're wearing them!

FUCKING STUPID REDNECKS. People like BB make me wish I hadn't been born with white skin. People like her should fuck off back to England. Bunch of fucking convicts! Leave me and my Koori brothers alone to enjoy this country for what it is! Not because it has a 'fair go' policy, or any other stupid 'Aussie' bullshit you pull out of your ass to get all the old White people fired up at Muslims.

How can we try and make people conform to the 'Australian way' or culture. I don't see White Australians wearing loin-cloths, painted in ochre, dancing around performing Corroboree rituals! NO, we didn't try to conform to the pre-existing culture when we came to this country, we tried to eradicate it!

So, let's see Muslims attempt genocide on white Australia, cause then that would be a 'fair go'!

[Legba]

indonesians must think we're all a pack of intolerant, bigotted decadent junkies

[Anodyne]

Disgusting. There was something Bishop said last night on TV, I didn't get it exactly, but it was something that compared allowing headscarves in schools to "supporting the idea of slavery"

I think the whole thing smells bad - even Howard added a disclaimer to his support, saying that it was only OK when it didn't conflict with the school's dress policy. I don't think any school should be allowed to have a dress policy that forces women to show more skin than they believe is modest. Most schools have dress policies that generally lean in the skin-covering direction - while uniform was not compulsory at my highschool, ppl were not supposed to expose shoulders or midriffs, or wear see-through clothing (although damn those white school blouses can be pretty flimsy ). That said, we did have a "no hats inside" rule too, although I assume that Muslims would've been allowed an exemption, as I never got hassled for wearing headscarves or bandanas. Then again, this was a pretty lax school, but I can't believe there's principals out there who would support a ban - to me it's like saying "Ok, from now on skirts longer than 6 inches are banned". I'm sure there's a bit in most school dress codes about not wearing any "immodest clothing" - if a Muslim girl feels that it is immodest to expose her head, then she shouldn't be required to.

I wonder where the "no hats inside" thing comes from? I assume it's the bit in the New Testament Corinthians 11, that basically says that because men were made in the image of God, they shouldn't wear a hat while praying, because it covers up God's fine handiwork, whereas women, who were made of man, should cover their heads, because they are lesser beings and it'd be an insult to God to pray with their inferior heads showing. But I don't know how this was extended from churches/praying to a range of public buildings (schools, RSL's, etc).

And as for the crap about ID photos - places which do these photos are given guidelines about what is acceptable for such photos, & headscarves are OK. I don't know what happens with the nose/mouth covering type of head-dress, but I'm sure there's guidelines for that too - maybe they can have their photo taken & ID confirmed in a private room - just like anyone can refuse to remove clothing in a public place if they're being searched.

[ 01. September 2005, 06:27: Message edited by: Anodyne ]

[nabraxas]

well, in britain the precedent set by this case, allows muslim girls to wear the full jilbab at school, as not being allowed to cover every inch ov flesh denied the right to manifest religion.

most moderate muslims saw this as a victory for the fanatics, but a ban on headscarves would cause even moderates to be marginalised.

[ 31. August 2005, 22:53: Message edited by: nabraxas ]

[SunChaser]

how can a person get away with sugesting such a racist comment. It just shows that us westerners a still a bunch of scared little racist rats who stomp on any believe that doesnt fit with ours. They wear head scarfs out of repect for them selves and we have such a disregard for there tradition as to let a person get away with suggesting that

where the ones with the problem not them

[ 01. September 2005, 12:49: Message edited by: jabez ]

[MrBumpy]

I can remember the French came up with this idea awhile back... but IIRC their reason was because the head scarves were a sign that the people weren't assimilating into the french culture.

But I think the french proposed a ban on every thing covering the head, including jewish skullcaps and Turbans.

Don't know and can't be bothered finding out if it went into effect.

-bumpy

[apothecary]

It went into effect.

It was all coverings of the head like you said, it's just that they have such a large muslim populus over there that this was the main party affected.

EDIT: It should be noted the ban is/was only on headscarves in government buildings like schools. Not an outright ban like Bishop is asking for.

[ 01. September 2005, 14:16: Message edited by: apothecary ]