Australia - something is missing

[Zen Peddler]

Here are my three contentions:

1. Since I travelled overseas for a long period of time recently Ive noticed something specific about Australia and Australians.

I could be wrong, but in my opinion, Australians are often pretty narrow-minded, ignorant, conservative, mean-spirited and shallow.

To justify this, I went to many southern and mid-western states in the United States of America - home of the super-conservative blah blahs. I found well-informed, happy, friendly, overly helpful people where ever I went. In the busy cities, people would stop to help me, when driving they would always allow me to change lanes.

Everywhere I went - asia, america, canada, mexico, guatemala, etc, I found happy people - happier people than those I see everyday in Australia. I thought it was because i was in the country, but all the cities I went to were similar (other than mexico city which was a little hussle/bussle).

I never encounted much racism - maybe a little in asian, but they were always easily dispelled, unlike racist crap i hear in Australia - whether from anglos, asians or indians.

People were also much more accepting of alternative views, thoughts, looks and lifestyles than in Australia. If I dropped out of society in america no one would give a shit, many in calif would sing me praise.

If I did this in mexico it would be accepted readily - people in that country have VERY different views about what matters in life and I can say that I contemplated living there permanently quite seriously.

If I did that in australia my family would be ashamed and I would be branded as lazy or a no-hoper.

2. Australia is a nation of self-absorbed haters

Dont you love ridiculous generalisations?? LOL

Ive never been road raged as much anywhere in other parts of the world as in Australia (and I drove extensively all over the states, and various other countries). People in Australia seem totally absorbed in how things effect them and 'fuck everyone else'. I drove ten minutes back in the country and because i wasnt speeding I was told that a guy was going to cut my throat and another two blokes yelled out at me.

WHere I work people retire regularly and no one even puts in to buy them a card.I asked my boss why and he said 'why would i bother? (it doesnt effect me so fuck them).

3. Australia has no respect or appreciation of natural places of beauty or the environment in general.

Maybe this is a throwback from how severe and intimidating our colonial forefathers viewed our environment.

But all over the world - with the obvious exception of chinese asia - people seemed to be more interested in, spent more time at and in appreciating, talked about and respected places of natural beauty much more than australians.

So many americans that I met planned on heading to a lake, a forest or somewhere naturally pleasant on the weekends than Ive ever seen in australia - we seem more content with shopping, lattes and shit meals at exclusive restaurants.

More, in places like mexico and the states, places where prescribed spiritual significance that wasnt scoffed at or ridiculed.

[Rabelais]

Love it or leave it mate!

I know what you mean, obviously we are not all like this...but it would seem the majority are. Talking to most of my family and friends, it seems if I am not talking about 4WD's, AFL or going to Harvey Norman to pick up a new LCD or home entertainment system - there is no point talking. If I brought up the subject of say...the ISP filter and our taking of liberty for granted, I would more than likely be presented with blank stares. Talk to a stranger about this and you would more than likely be labeled a do-gooder or civil-libo. These are the same people who would celebrate ANZAC day proudly without flinching

I am quite sick of our countries blind and shallow patriotism. I seen a clip of the Glastonbury festival where Nick Cave was performing recently...there were actually people there waving Australian flags in the front row - who gives a fuck if we are Australian...we are really not special in any way.

I originally thought it was because we were a 'young' country (for whites anyway) and that we may have had a slight inferiority complex. I really have no idea anymore.

I think on an international level, we are loosing our luster also. 20 years ago we had a bit of a "lovable larakin" attitude perpetuated by the likes of Paul Hogan etc...but I think it is wearing thin. Mostly I think we are seen as loud and abrasive twits...like that party guest who starts out loud and fun, but it just ends up being annoying and you wish they would just leave already.

Don't get me started on seeing Australians overseas...I should say hear them - you always hear an Australian before you see them.

Anyway, I'm rambling/venting. Generally, I agree with everything you said. But there are some diamonds amongst the rough.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dale Cooper

[mac]

The Grass Is Always Greener On The Other Side

http://www.team-swap.com/grassisgreener.htm

Edited June 30, 2009 by mac

[Chiral]

whoa...man I can definitely agree on soooo many levels... ridiculous generalisations or not...I have traveled extensively around the world and have also found the same that you talk about...I mean really you have to travel outside of OZ to see it...but when you do and return it is right in your face...I found OZ in general to be extremely 2 dimensional when I returned from 9 years overseas...but I have travelled outside the country many more times on shorter trips like for 3 weeks to 6 weeks and still notice it...I have family in Redneck country around Texas and West Virginia and can tell ya these so called rednecks are the friendliest damn creatures I've ever met...I have been into the heart of the Hatfields and McCoys territory in West Virginia and had a ball with total rednecks in tiny small towns...I had dreadlocks down to my ass and tatt's all over me with piercings etc and they treated me just as well as anyone who knows me really well...I really struggled when I returned here from Europe...even just the music scene I found to be soooo shallow and poppy and rocky...I really had trouble readjusting... spent 2 years in the bush up North re getting used to OZ and aussies in general...I spat the dummy many times and cursed my wife for making me come back here when I was soooo much more happier in Europe and traveling to the America's so frequently...it's things like road rage and negativity and just blind naivety and ignorance of other cultures and environments that struck me as very racist and odd...I tell you that you can find the most racist people on earth in THIS country...especially amongst the old school middle white class that live in the coastal climates around OZ...it's not so bad in the cities but small to medium coastal towns are appalling with racism and blinkered views.

Running away to Mexico has crossed my mind more than 100 times also...I don't know why I stay here sometimes to tell the truth...people that are born and raised here think OZ is the luckiest country in the world and has everything...WRONG...big time wrong...that is the problem...once you start to have that arrogant view then we know why people are like they are here...I have old school friends who have never left the towns they have been raised in and they are soooooooo ignorant of anything going on outside of their crummy bong filled, shithouse lives that it's sickening.

Once again though..these are generalisations but when you hear more and more travelers say the same shit..then you start to take notice and sit up and start to wonder...perhaps it isn't just me...food for thought, I'm sure this thread will cause a few arguments for and against, but I really wish that people could take the time just once in their lives and step outside their comfortable 3point one's and travel away and get some perspective happening.

H.

Edit quote Dale Cooper...Don't get me started on seeing Australians overseas...I should say hear them - you always hear an Australian before you see them.

LMAO dude...how very true...the last person you wanna meet overseas is another Aussie...I used to cringe when I'd see that rugby jersey and the hats, flags and the beers...truly it's like all the worst paradigms you could ever imagine all rolled into a boxing kangaroo.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[bℓσωηG]

Well said Hunab, i have been to Indonesia a few times before the Bali bombings and the reaction of some of the locals there to my Australianess was scary, including death threats. Then i explained that I was born in NZ and only live in Australia, then everything was cool and made many fiends. We defintely do not have a good reputation there.

[kenny]

I think you would have to be pretty narrow-minded to assume that the few people that you have met (relatively speaking) is enough to make any kind of generalization about a nation... any nation at that.

I consider myself very accepting and open minded to other peoples views. For those I have met who may fall in the category of 'ignorant' or 'conservative' its usually a matter of poor education. Or having been corrupted by one sided news reports on issues like Global Warming the War on Terror or even Drugs.

There are a lot of die hard religious conservative Australians but In my experience I would never compare them to the likes of American die hard conservatives. This is just my experience though. Just as your opinions are based on your own experiences.

Rather than going on to argue each point for or against Australians I will humbly admit that I really don't know enough to make generalized statements about them. Usually I look for the good in people, and In my life I have mostly met good people....

As for the statement about Aussies not caring about the environment. When that Greens senator was at risk of losing his seat due to those massive debts he incurred over some court case in Tasmania. I was quite surprised to hear that Aussie donors had sent him enough money to keep him afloat. Maybe i have my facts wrong about that one, but if its true.. that should be a testament to our willingness to fight for mother nature.

[Rabelais]

kenny

As for the statement about Aussies not caring about the environment. When that Greens senator was at risk of losing his seat due to those massive debts he incurred over some court case in Tasmania. I was quite surprised to hear that Aussie donors had sent him enough money to keep him afloat. Maybe i have my facts wrong about that one, but if its true.. that should be a testament to our willingness to fight for mother nature.

You are correct, I believe it only took about 2-3 days and Bob had received enough money to pay the legal fees. Many years ago I donated some of my art work (along with many other Tasmanian artists) for an auction to support Bob when he was in similar troubles. My family originates from some hard core working class of miners, foresters and truck drivers on the west coast and they were absolutely ropable when this happened. The division over this issue runs so deep and many of them would literally wish a violent a bloody death on Bob. They just assume most of the support came from big city do-gooders which made it all the worse for them. People assume the support comes from Melbourne and Sydney latte sippers.

Most people from north-west communities in Tas could not give a shit about the environment. They are happy to see Gunns have a monopoly on one of our greatest assets as long as they can have their 9-5 gigs. The fact that before Gunns setup shop and corrupted Forestry Tasmania there were nearly 100 independent sawmill operators in Tas, goes completely over their heads...it's just jobs, jobs, jobs.

These are the same bogans who will bitch and moan about their jobs when Gunns pack up shop because they can no longer compete on an international market when cheap Chinese plantations become the preferred source ...Gunns play these people like fools..they setup support for things like footy grounds at a grass-roots level and get the local working-class communities onside - much like big oil companies go into developing nations and setup schools and such, but when the resources finally vanish or they can no longer compete, they will vanish like a fart in the air.

You'd think these people would have a little more pride and kick Gunns out on their ass and setup their own independent mills and cater to a more upscale market which appreciates Tasmanian timber beyond it's use in chip-board...that Tasmanian timber is used for this garbage is a national disgrace, and telling in regards to how much these communities value our natural environment.

Edited June 30, 2009 by Dale Cooper

[Chiral]

Yep get in and get the quick money the quick way with no thought for the future...that old chestnut...maybe as humans we are de evolving...when are people going to finally learn that conservation and a broader way of thinking will be better for our childrens future...they won't...simple answer is because people are selfish, and couldn't give a fuck about the future...they want their money now, and they wanna watch the footy on their huge TV's now..pay later even...nice post BTW Dale...I like it when someone who actually is in amongst the thick of it, can give out a clear concise picture of reality...why is it though that you see it but the bogan 9 to fivers can't...must be the psychedelics...

H.

[Zen Peddler]

The lucky country... Melbourne and Sydney - I believe they are maybe 5th and 7th on the most unaffordable property in the world when measured against average earning capicity of their inhabitants.

People regularly tell me that I have to get into the market! I always answer them and I can just see there eyes glaze 'Why would i want to be stuck in this job for 40 years just to buy a dump in this shithole of a city?'

The point about Bob Brown is a good one and I concede it is a good sign.

 

have been into the heart of the Hatfields and McCoys territory in West Virginia and had a ball with total rednecks in tiny small towns...I had dreadlocks down to my ass and tatt's all over me with piercings etc and they treated me just as well as anyone who knows me really well...I really struggled when I returned here from Europe...even just the music scene I found to be soooo shallow and poppy and rocky...

Fuck yeah brother, i was in Montana for a month for fuck sake! I made closer friends in that time there with people that I would have assumed wouldnt have given me the time of day than ive made with people in Melbourne in the last two years. And that probably includes members of the band im in.

As for the Australian music scene - its almost laughable. its such a bad joke. I noticed in the states when I caught up with musos they seems to just seem more 'authentic' to me. When i was starting a band in melbpurne Id advertise for singers and bass players and the biggest wankers on earth would arrive with no knowledge of music history, no real talent, but bucket-loads of ego and emo hair. Big fucking deal youve got your lip piersed but you cant play for shit and your too busy posing to even try anyway.

Its our soullessness - our cultural void. We have no real culture of our own, so we absorb bits of other nations. But when your life revolves around sport, beer, mortgages, pubs, lattes, television and bigotism its hard to find anything underneith that could be fertile ground for anything artistic or deeper.

Its almost like anything that isnt directly practical either financially or in relation to sporting achievement is not only not valued in australia, its actually actively scorned or hated.

In other countries people go to beautiful natural locations to be awe of nature. here, if we cant get on the piss there or get a root, then why fucking bother?

Edited July 1, 2009 by Zen Peddler BlueGreenie

[Yawning Man]

Kinda random, but once when i was in a large shopping mall i was walking at the same pace as two young blokes. And over-hearing their convo, every second word..was like. "He was like eyy don't be dodgy, we laughed and were like". Makes me wonder where the country will be with these sorts of kids entering our work force and voting etc. I can't say i agree or disagree with you Zen, but i plan on doing a lot of traveling in the future so then i'll be able to comment. People always say see your own country first so that's what i plan on doing.

I can say that Melbourne has one of the most unfriendly, negative vibes about it. Many times while i was attending tafe in the city i'd feel completely overwhelmed and alone. I fucking HATED it.

cheers

[folias]

Australia has its pluses and negatives like any other country...

I find it a bit of a loose place, like a string that is a bit loose, you often get a long, slow twang... whereas, places like Russia, say, the strings are too tight! Short and sharp sounds!

People often don't take themselves seriously enough, there is a low cultural self esteem, the grass is often seen as greener, but in many ways the grass is way greener here, in some ways (most of which that are not recognised) things are not so great here!

Complacency is a big issue I feel... people don't easily support or encourage each other... male culture can be pretty jurassic... there is often a lack of pride in doing things well i.e. she'll be right.

On the other hand, the most interesting people you will ever meet often exist in reaction to their home culture...

There is a two dimensional depth to how people relate here... I find it hard... whereas, in somewhere like Egypt or India, people will stop and relate with you in deep recognition and humour. Australia's foundation of self understanding is largely British... and THAT is quite a shallow culture too (to my mind)

On the plus side, we have true freedom, we can largely do anything we want, we are largely not constrained by too much cultural identity or history... and have great flexibility creativitly and otherwise in many different arenas. Yet, we still don't really take advantage of it as we should or take responsibility for that tremendous ability which most people from most countries simply don't have.

Friends who have moved here from America say, are often very impressed by the enormous amount of talent here per capita. And typically say that people don't value how good they have it here!

I personally find people here pretty lazy and slack, there is a lack of a "can do" energy, it would be hard to stage a classical revolution here... not enough passion! Yeah, sure something is missing... but one of the issues, is that the majority of people don't travel... and don't know anything else, there is a certain arrogance and denial, a limited and quite shallow operating system which is insecure, but does not recognise its insecurity and or limitations, and accept the challenge of not being limited.

But Australians are hard on themselves too... and diss themselves... if I think about all the people I know, who are Australian, they are a pretty impressive and unique bunch, whose internal and natural development is not based upon book knowledge and whose sense of self worth and value does not come from appearance or dress.

Julian.

[Neoshaman]

I can say that Melbourne has one of the most unfriendly, negative vibes about it. Many times while i was attending tafe in the city i'd feel completely overwhelmed and alone. I fucking HATED it.

cheers

I found Melbourne to be the complete opposite actually considered moving there at one point compare the People of Melbourne to the vast majority in Sydney , Melbourne ain't got anything on Sydney for being unfriendly and having negative vibes

[apothecary]

Yeah agreed I live inner-city Melb now and compared to Syd it's a total win!

[Chiral]

Poor Zen...he is venting all those angers and feelings one gets when you return from overseas and you are slapped in the face with footy mentalium and giss a root... ...ya have to find the unique little nooks and crannies that offer up the alternative vibes and somehow nestle back into them...not easy as I found out how bitchy and blinkered even some of the doofers can be...I was shocked to overhear negative bigoted vibes about other sound engineers and VJ's..reeeeoow...After a while Zen you will kinda get over it as everyone gets sick of hearing about your travels and considers you an elitist traveling snobby git. Australia has a very young existence compared to other nations and it shows in it's arrogance and ignorance...it sometimes feels like the country is acting like one young spoilt brat teenager, not getting their own way.The waving of Aussie flags and chanting ozzy ozzy ozzy oi oi oi...to me is almost some form of intimidation/racism...like we are better than anyone else so get out of our way...we are lucky country so there.

There are wonderfully eccentric people here but they really are a tiny minority and are usually constrained to groups like here at SAB and Australiens etc. Too many cars and footy and home loans make for a shallow uncultured lifestyle that millions seem to adore.

I've stopped complaining mostly now but laugh deeply when I hear people like Zen go off on exactly the same vibe I have spat forth for many years...it gets you no where in the end unfortunately...find your little culture of plantheads and nature freaks and chill...oh and pass me a VB and some aeroguard...these mozzies are fucking killing me, oi oi oi.

H.

[reptyle]

Australia is the best country in the world.

There is a serious common sense issue in the world at the moment but as far as it goes australiens are fairly common and also have cents as currency, most of which is fairly evenly distributed...relatively.

As far as potential for a forseable future Australia is the best country in the world...

Its a giant island and a small continent which is the best country in the world...

Australian people are the closest to raw human, with the addition of hygiene, that you might find around the world...

Unavoidable honesty bred from a lack of cultural complexity...otherwise known as neurotic complexes, which we largely dont have...

something about fairly high proportions of "talented" individuals per capita...faster fitter stronger higher trippier purpler...

Green and gold = green and gold...

i smell sedition...

[Rabelais]

reptyle

i smell sedition...

Is that you, Gran?

[ThunderIdeal]

always interesting to get your perspective reptyle. i'm not sure you've given much explanation in this case. i don't think wealth is spread evenly at all in australia, most of our money is concentrated into a very small fraction of our population.

hunab i can't believe you ever thought the doof scene was free of negativity!!

in some ways australia is seriously 'tarded, but i've never been outside of it and unless my finances take an inexplicable swing towards about 90K a year, i doubt i'll ever bother crossing any seas (bass strait maybe). i like the landscape and the wildlife, it's familiar i guess and has it's own kind of beauty. sure there are worthless assholes anywhere you might look, but is it really that much better anywhere else?

i tend to agree that there's a serious problem with our youngsters and often they don't grow out of it, and it's probably getting worse. i think a major part of this problem is the pittance spent on public education. not only did students get away with a lot of shit at my school, but there was also repeated cases of violence towards students by teachers. it wasn't a productive atmosphere in any real sense and for the most part my education stopped when i entered high school. they say that private schools receive more funding per student from the government than public schools, and that seems like a great injustice to the entire nation.

[botanicalSEEKER]

Kenny you got it brah! Those are massive generalizations, you haven't seen the whole picture! you've only seen what you've drawn!

Australia has good and bad people just like any other part of the world, im sure road rage happens in other parts of the world

AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE OI OI OI

Im studying environmental sciences, and you assertion that australians in general don't care about the environment is completely unfounded, seriously australia has alot of environmental legislation/laws/regulation that is alot stricter than most countries. And to say we don't appreciated the environment, just look at the nature groups, leading environmentalists, greens etc etc.

b

[Fenris]

Yall should come to Perth

[Zen Peddler]

we do hjave good working conditions - nearly lost those as well...

[botanicalSEEKER]

One thing i do have a big problem with in Australia, is the police force. I'm not saying all of them but a majority of beet cops are ASSHOLES! High school bullies that found the perfect job to continue their violent, vindictive ways. SWIM by an unlucky chance was pulled over, meeting all the requirements put forth by the police, he was then told to sit with his hands where the policemen could see them, as they proceeded to search his car( more like chucking everything out of it on a verge). To this point SWIM had been very polite and accommodating, but was nearing his breaking point, SWIM asked the lead cop , "could i please know why you pulled me over?" to this the lead cop became infuriated came right up to SWIMs face and said "cause i can bloody well pull over anyone i want anywhere at any time that's why", SWIM knew this cops was full of negativity so sat silent throughout. When the policemen where satisfied, they left SWIMS belonging on the verge for him to pick up.

b

[Yawning Man]

^^^

Fucking disgusting behaviour. I think often people think that lodging a complaint wont get anywhere, but i beg the differ. Remembering the small details like the time, date and where a person was pulled over would be enough to work out which officer it was, then take it from there.

cheers

[Yeti101]

Sorry to backtrack guys...

Also: the following is full of generalisations (much like the rest of this thread).

Well said Hunab, i have been to Indonesia a few times before the Bali bombings and the reaction of some of the locals there to my Australianess was scary, including death threats. Then i explained that I was born in NZ and only live in Australia, then everything was cool and made many fiends. We defintely do not have a good reputation there.

I always had a good time when on both Bali and Java, people were generally nice, but the less they knew about Australia, the nicer they were. Mind you it probably helped that my family are profoundly un-ocker. Several times we had people refuse to believe that we were Australian because we were too polite, well spoken, well behaved and culturally sensitive. Despite the fact that we spoke very little Malay (Bahasa Indonesia) and no Cantonese, they preferred to think that we were from Singapore or Hong Kong.

I'm frequently conflicted about Australia.

It seems that either we have less extremist nutcases, or that our nutcases are less dangerous, possibly due to our endemic apathy.

On the other hand as a nation we seem painfully unaware of what freedoms we have or not and why they should be defended. Lots of opeople go to Anzac Day and nod very soberly at the speeches about the Diggers defending out Freedoms (before dashing off to get pissed and play two up). But most people here never really think about freedoms or liberties or rights. And heaven forbid that you should suggest that another country has a better take on these things than us! Like people have said, we are the lucky country, and we will keep repeating that from one side of our mouths (while we complain about everything out of the other) even if we were drowning in shit.

On the up side I think that much of our health-care and social welfare systems are better than elsewhere. We aren't the best, but we are far from being the worst - If I was to be out of work and needing to go to hospital, I'd rather be in that situation here than in the US for example. I happen to think that the way that a society treats it's most vulnerable members is an important measure of how just it is. But we aren't very consistent. It's OK to be a poor white pensioner, but other people who need support can get much less sympathy from the general populace.

Our drug laws and scheduling system drive me nuts and that shit about Internet Censorship Filtering makes me despair.

But if you have half a brain and aren't totally mal-adjusted you can go to Uni here even if you don't have a wealthy family (it does help though).

So many contradictions. Doesn't matter much at the moment though as I don't have the cash to run off somewhere else and start again.

[folias]

Reptyle is right... common sense is pretty common in Australia, and pretty much everywhere else... its a very rare commodity, even in countries like Switzerland and Sweden, many people often seem twisted and distorted in how they apprehend and deal with each other and their realities... Australian people tend to approach reality directly, more honestly and humanely than in many other places.

Julian.

[Chiral]

Reptyle is right... common sense is pretty common in Australia, and pretty much everywhere else... its a very rare commodity, even in countries like Switzerland and Sweden, many people often seem twisted and distorted in how they apprehend and deal with each other and their realities... Australian people tend to approach reality directly, more honestly and humanely than in many other places.

Julian.

Without sounding like dick...what is it that you are saying...I have read this post 5 times and each time it gets more confusing than the time before...common sense in Australia.. .I have absolutely no idea what you mean by that...common sense is used by all people all over the world...it's how we all get along.

One other thing to consider is when I have been overseas and talked to foreigners and tell them where I live...Australia...they always say how they would love to see Australia as they have heard it is a very beautiful country...I have to agree it is very scenic and has it's own very unique flora and fauna and beaches etc...but what strikes me odd is that no one I've ever met over seas that has been or wants to go says they found Aussies to be friendly or cool or anything really...it's always comments about the scenery and opera house only etc...I dunno maybe I'm a person who likes to be surrounded by a lot talking chatting people who have a million stories to tell and have a really old culture to be proud of...I just don't get any of that here...I've always had the least amount of friends when here...it's the easiest place in the world to become a loner and lonely...great beaches though...okay I'll shut up now...no more aussie bashin...after all I am a soapy pom...

H.