Sorry

[watertrade]

http://www.reconcile.org.au/

Politics aside - I feel good about this. Makes me feel like Australia is taking a step forward.

[Mr. Farrz]

I agree, although I think it's been blown all out of proportion. Common sense dictates that are all sorry for the travesties committed in the past not only in Australia but in many, many countries; John Howard's refusal to accept that Australian governments were wrong in their past actions has made this (a government apology) much more of an issue than it ever should have been, in my opinion.

Chris.

[tassiejd]

While i don't mind an apology, the bit that bothers me is i saw the head of the Tasmanian aboriginal council on the news the other night saying an apology without compensation wont be accepted by the Tasmanian aboriginals, I have seen a few elders who just want to hear the words sorry, but for 90% of the younger generations this is purely a cash grab, i even heard one of the elders say i hope there is no compensation, we just need to hear the words.

Kevin rudd has so far said there will be no money from a federal level as of yet, so his apology will only cover those that are happy with words, not those who want cash, and there are a lot who are saying if the is no federal money then off to the courts it is. to me a lot of them have forgotten why we are even saying sorry.

[XipeTotec]

the bit that bothers me is i saw the head of the Tasmanian aboriginal council on the news the other night saying an apology without compensation wont be accepted by the Tasmanian aboriginals,

this also bothered me.... but on the other hand... sorry is a very easy word to say. Im sorry (mind the pun), but this really does wreak of politics to me, and of kevin being the big man that johnny never was. Like I said... its a very easy thing to do, which makes kevin look like a top bloke, but seems to me to currently lack any substance. Maybe im just old and cynical...infact, i always have been... well, not old, but cynical.

[Vertmorpheus]

but for 90% of the younger generation its a cash grab? Dunno bout that. I'd be more offended (esp since tassie was one of the most "Efficient" genocidal regimes in world history) but as faux anthros "discovered" years back, blackfellas have thicker skins and harder heads

To the extent that anyone is after cash, it typically has more to do with withheld wages from various industries, payment by the govt to certain tribes for services rendered (they got the services... we never got the cash). The two issues are interrelated, but not entirely codependant... think about getting really awful service in a shop, and you complain, and the manager says "well look i cant promise a refund but i accept you feel shitty about it and we will make every effort to remedy the situation"... on one hand its being "handled" to get rid of you.. on the otehr hand, its better than being told to fuck off.

Overall, "they" can keep their cash... we (speaking a member of the younger generation here) simply want a lil recognition of why even 20somethings have a whole lot of residual fear and shame and worry for things that happened a long time ago... a similar thing is seen in young german people, in response to the holocaustic actions of their predecessors, and in young Israelis, young native Americans, a lot of people... just because somethings been n done with, doesnt mean its resolved. Everyones heard of Birkenau, few have heard of Maralinga... many have heard of american settlers handing out smallpox riddled blankets, not many actually realise a whole lot of arsenic loaded flour was handed out around much of Australia, etc. Not many people realise that for quite a while there, you could shoot a man dead, share his wife around like a spliff and then sell her as farm labour... that shed never get paid for anyway. We all know about US slavery and the civil war etc... not many know about that side of Australia. THey know there was "some bad things went on" but the details ARE important I feel.

In some ways, its about "sorry" being a trigger for the less aware to ask "sorry for what" so that those like me can then tell em, for what.

Course, must be remembered that sorry when you mean it is a fantastic thing... sorry when youre saying it to seem like the big man, isn't. Either way, I heard a lot out of Rudd before he got into power, and now I barely see him on telly... might be he's busy... but having noticed his rapidly accumulating "puppy fat".... I reckon I know what hes busy doing... official backpatting ceremonies and mutual masturabtion societies methinks.

And in the same way that Kevin Rudd doesnt actually represent my views too often, the various council heads etc around the nation dont necess rep the views of the "man on the street" whatsoever... some are very dedicated and caring people, firmly resolved to...resolve things... others are in it for the Che Guevara complex... eg thats why a lot of us think Murandoo Yannar is a tool, and Sam Watson would make a lovely compost heap... despite their claims to "represent the people" the people dont have a lot of respect for them. Anyrate, get grumps with some tool on telly by all means... dont assume his views are truly representative of the people.... did Pauline Hanson rep you? Probly not. And most of "us" had sense to realise she was a tool , too.

take care all, apology accepted here. Now if kev rudd donated his annual suit bill for just one year to say health clinics in the Top End, I might take him REALLY seriously

VM

[incognito]

http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/5051/1013.html

nauseating filth.

damn right our government (and any concious human being)should say sorry,and make efforts toward reconcilliation. such barbary should AT LEAST be apologised for and compensation paid by the govt who imposed this.

this aint that long ago.

man truganinis story is as sad a tale as you will ever hear.

i agree im sure the 90% handout figure sounds a bit unfair.

i feel ill.

edit- good read here- http://www.brumbywatchaustralia.com/Genocide_letter001.htm

Edited February 11, 2008 by jono

[worowa]

A small step towards reconcilliation-our parliament apologizing (on behalf of previous parliaments) for stealing babies for no other reason than skin colour. Good news for a change. Lets hope forgiveness comes with it, and a bit of mutual respect and understanding.

I wonder when we'll apologize to the Iraqis for the atrocities still being committed there, supported not by most aussies, but by our parliament.

[Vertmorpheus]

The dollar sign issue pops up from time to time, in a few guises... whether its the noticeable absence of "free cars" left dead around the top end, the fact that apart from certain distance allowance provisions the ol abstudy wasnt real different from austudy... the fact that ticking the blackfella box doesnt make your newstart any better paying, just means the various NGOs are more eager to get claws into you.. all these so called signs of "money grubbing blacks"...

Yet I turn on the telly n what do I see... some space case pointing out that "if you earn over 50k a year and dont have private health cover u may be paying an extra 500 in tax"... tell ya what... if youre on 50 k a year, and are that upset that someone else might benefit from your 500 bucks... maybe take a look at yourself. Likewise the constant tax dodges sorry sound financial advice, people that own property upping the rent every 3 months strictly because they would like more cash and well...they can... and youll just pay... people that cant donate 2 bucks to the Guide Dogs without making the poor charity worker fuck about writing them a tax receipt.. not to mention the flat rate middle class welfare, upper class tax braeks and various "baby bonuses" (handy as hell, but someone on 100k a year simply shouldnt get the same amount as someone getting 24 grand a year ... maybe when the much lauded "state award" system has provisions for paying many aussie workers more than about 500 bucks a week before tax... then I'll think differently).

All in all I'd say money grubbing and "taking it as long a theyre giving it out" is a very Australian, probably very basically human trait...maybe mammalian at that. Seen a labrador at a barbecue lately? eat til they burst then come back for more, just because its on offer... of course what wemake of an individuals motivations may have more to do with our own views of their life, rather than their own. Anyrate, for every cash hungry blackfella theres a hundred whitefellas that are just as keen on the stuff, and will do whatever they can to ake sure they get their "due share" of any vote buying excercises.

That said, there are bludging dodgy ripoff artist scamming blackfellas around... youll see few of em on the street... most of em are on Land Councils And the various "Community Corporations" read: who wants a lift in the brand new dual cab I'm meant to be using to help nanas get to the doctor, delivering groceries, etc... but am instead using to take extended trips to the coast to enage in such culturally magnificent practices as "playing the pokies" and "getting really pissed and raping people"... my regards to you, Mr.Clark and Co.... and anyone else that is behind why both my parents and my eldest brother require silent phone numbers, po boxes and spent a bit of time looking over their shoulders.

Otherwise, if Kev sends me a letter tomorrow that says "want a couple grand?" guess what... cha-ching. Who wouldn't? Dif is, mine wouldn't be going on brand new fourby running costs, big arse tv's or shiny new mobile phones for all the family... itd go on food, bills, rego-ing our aging, modest cars. Gods forbid!

VM

[ThunderIdeal]

not many actually realise a whole lot of arsenic loaded flour was handed out around much of Australia, etc.

i raised that point in the other thread. as far as i can see, the reason that nobody is knows is because it isn't taught to school children. it's only ever something you "hear from somebody". i did modern history in highschool and i'm pretty sure this stuff was completely absent from the textbook.

[Mr. Farrz]

While i don't mind an apology, the bit that bothers me is i saw the head of the Tasmanian aboriginal council on the news the other night saying an apology without compensation wont be accepted by the Tasmanian aboriginals, I have seen a few elders who just want to hear the words sorry, but for 90% of the younger generations this is purely a cash grab, i even heard one of the elders say i hope there is no compensation, we just need to hear the words.

I heard something on the radio the other day ... think it was Hack on Triple J, saying that the Tas government has committed 2 (or was it 5?) million $ as compensation for people who can show that their life has been affected by the stolen generation. Which apparently works out, based on the number of families effected, to a pretty small amount per family - so it's more symbolic than actual compensation.

*looks for a link*

Hmm OK, it was $5M, with up to $5k per person or $20k per family.

http://www.dpac.tas.gov.au/stolengeneration/

Ah well, let it be symbolic and compensation then. I can't complain about some of my taxes being spent on something worthwhile and hopefully beneficial to our society rather than a war.

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

Who'd be whingin' about paying compo at a time like this? What about the lives that were genuinely destroyed? Much of what took place was indescriminate and careless. I'd call that 'stolen'. If someone is due compo then so be it. Who cares about the monetary cost, what about the greater benefits of righting the wrongs, and restoring dignity in peoples lives, every dollar spent is well worth it! If anyone does truely deserve compo then bloody oath I wanna see them compensated. Obviously there are some long court cases ahead.

I'm proud of my indigenous bros for keeping their heads up after all they go through. Look what has been achieved against all odds! Best bloke you'll ever meet is a blackfella.

Edited February 12, 2008 by mountain sage

[apothecary]

I think Kev did ok. There wasn't too much wankery.

Like was mentioned, actions speak louder than words, so let's hope for some action.

[Ace]

I think Kev did ok.

Seconded. A very deep thing to grasp (especially as a member of 'Generation Y', who has never experienced or even heard much about the stolen generations), but what was said was very moving and I hope leads to equality throughout all the lands of Australia. Today is a huge point in the history of reconciling and re-righting many, many wrongs that have been made by the colonial/immigrated leaders of the past. I think that good things will come from the words spoken today - heres hoping that things will start with a deeper understanding of the turmoils lived by those within the effected families of the 'Stolen Generation'. Through understanding comes compassion and respect, and with time the horrible things that have happened will be nothing more than terrible memories passed down from generation to generation and text written in history books. Never will such a thing happen again on our shores. I for one am very grateful to have witnessed such a moment in Australian history.

someone is due compo

Like it was said in the speaches, there is no monetary cost that could help to compensate with ruining lives. I believe that there should be some form of compensation, but I would rather it be seen in better education; building strong and efficient communities; bridging the gap between indigenous and non-indigenous Australians; increasing life expectancy rates in indiginous communities; and the like. Money is nothing without change. Change is going to be the only way to construct the bridge to reconcilliation and walking across it to make Australia become a land of true equality.

[apothecary]

Oh and I'd just like to add, if you thought "hey anyone could've gotten up and said what Rudd said without fucking it up", well, just take a look at Brendon Nelson for a 3 step plan on how to fuck it up.

Step 1: Pretend like you give a shit

Step 2: Pretend you're not a fucking scum bag

Step 3: Get up to the podium and have all the people who count literally turn their backs on you, because they realise you're a fucking scumbag who doesn't give a shit.

[Ace]

Haha - spot on Sina. I did like the way he gave accounts from people to help illustrate the disgraces caused by the Government (I thought Rudd maybe could have given another one or two accounts to give more understanding to the younger generations who dont know a lot about it), but the underlying tone that he didnt give a shit just shone too bright for anyone to overlook. I love how he pulled the 'I give a shit' look off as he wandered around hugging people - if only he had have seen the people outside while he was giving his speech

I think Rudd has actually done quite well in the short time that he has been in so far. It will be good to see him keep up the good work over the next few years. I certainly couldnt imagine this huge step being made with Lil' Johnny still in office, or any of the Libs. It's about time that these huge changes were made - good on him for actually doing what he said he would.

[mark80]

), but what was said was very moving and I hope leads to equality throughout all the lands of Australia.

I disagree, this is only going to open up a big can of worms, appolgising is admission of guilt. Now they are going to play the whole you admitted you did us a wrong, give us money etc. they wouldn't have fought so hard if they weren't trying to get something out of it. The abrogines say they want equailty, but only if it favours them. I say if they want equilty we abolish abstudy, government organsitaions that specialse in "there" needs and that stupid subject i have take that is all about "them".

I don't agree with what happened but why should i pay for a mistake i havn't made?

[simon_marklar]

I Hope you dont mind, i posted this on another forum where some people go on about the compensation like that is all this is about. Your words made me think alot about this (i never really heard why this whole sorry thing came about, just that suddenly we have to apologies for something that sounds fucked up...) and i thought these people needed to hear what you had to say. It would be good if this stuff was taught in schools, maybe we'd learn from it...

but for 90% of the younger generation its a cash grab? Dunno bout that. I'd be more offended (esp since tassie was one of the most "Efficient" genocidal regimes in world history) but as faux anthros "discovered" years back, blackfellas have thicker skins and harder heads

To the extent that anyone is after cash, it typically has more to do with withheld wages from various industries, payment by the govt to certain tribes for services rendered (they got the services... we never got the cash). The two issues are interrelated, but not entirely codependant... think about getting really awful service in a shop, and you complain, and the manager says "well look i cant promise a refund but i accept you feel shitty about it and we will make every effort to remedy the situation"... on one hand its being "handled" to get rid of you.. on the otehr hand, its better than being told to fuck off.

Overall, "they" can keep their cash... we (speaking a member of the younger generation here) simply want a lil recognition of why even 20somethings have a whole lot of residual fear and shame and worry for things that happened a long time ago... a similar thing is seen in young german people, in response to the holocaustic actions of their predecessors, and in young Israelis, young native Americans, a lot of people... just because somethings been n done with, doesnt mean its resolved. Everyones heard of Birkenau, few have heard of Maralinga... many have heard of american settlers handing out smallpox riddled blankets, not many actually realise a whole lot of arsenic loaded flour was handed out around much of Australia, etc. Not many people realise that for quite a while there, you could shoot a man dead, share his wife around like a spliff and then sell her as farm labour... that shed never get paid for anyway. We all know about US slavery and the civil war etc... not many know about that side of Australia. THey know there was "some bad things went on" but the details ARE important I feel.

In some ways, its about "sorry" being a trigger for the less aware to ask "sorry for what" so that those like me can then tell em, for what.

Course, must be remembered that sorry when you mean it is a fantastic thing... sorry when youre saying it to seem like the big man, isn't. Either way, I heard a lot out of Rudd before he got into power, and now I barely see him on telly... might be he's busy... but having noticed his rapidly accumulating "puppy fat".... I reckon I know what hes busy doing... official backpatting ceremonies and mutual masturabtion societies methinks.

And in the same way that Kevin Rudd doesnt actually represent my views too often, the various council heads etc around the nation dont necess rep the views of the "man on the street" whatsoever... some are very dedicated and caring people, firmly resolved to...resolve things... others are in it for the Che Guevara complex... eg thats why a lot of us think Murandoo Yannar is a tool, and Sam Watson would make a lovely compost heap... despite their claims to "represent the people" the people dont have a lot of respect for them. Anyrate, get grumps with some tool on telly by all means... dont assume his views are truly representative of the people.... did Pauline Hanson rep you? Probly not. And most of "us" had sense to realise she was a tool , too.

take care all, apology accepted here. Now if kev rudd donated his annual suit bill for just one year to say health clinics in the Top End, I might take him REALLY seriously

VM

[apothecary]

Wow your post is so ignorant it's scary.

No shit. Apology is admission of guilt. Did you have to take a subject to figure that one out too?

I don't think he apologised enough! He should've apologised for all the dickheads who came before him who refused to apologise.

Yeah, I'm sure the native populace of this country has been conspiring for over 200 years to get an apology out of us for the purposes of a one off compo payment less than an annual salary at minimum wage. Your insinuation here is so unbelievably fucked up, well, I can't believe it.

You talk about equality in terms of ABSTUDY and the Ministry of Indigenous Affairs, which is so fucking ignorant (like I said) it scares me. Why don't you consider equality in terms of life expectancy, literacy, incarceration rates, population distribution (how come a large chunk of Sydney's Aboriginal population can't get rent approval anywhere but Redfern?), etc, etc.

My rough calculations indicate that if Australia renegged tomorrow and set up a $300 million "native" fund like Canada has for their natives, it'd be about $15 a head to cover the cost.

Well fuck you mark, I'd pay my share and twice of yours in a second, if it meant doing even the tiniest bit of good.

[gerbil]

I disagree, this is only going to open up a big can of worms, appolgising is admission of guilt. Now they are going to play the whole you admitted you did us a wrong, give us money etc. they wouldn't have fought so hard if they weren't trying to get something out of it. The abrogines say they want equailty, but only if it favours them. I say if they want equilty we abolish abstudy, government organsitaions that specialse in "there" needs and that stupid subject i have take that is all about "them".

I don't agree with what happened but why should i pay for a mistake i havn't made?

LOL admission of guilt? what, would you prefer we pretend it never happened? geeze i can't believe this post, grow up mark.

Did you ever think that the vast majority of the people involved simply want recognition of the situation, some emotional closure from a fucked up life directly caused by ignorant white man?

Nelson spoke like a true liberal, they can come to the party but they will never 'get it'.

[worowa]

Bravo Kev! Poor Brendan Nelson just didn't get it. Primary school kids had to listen to him talk about rapes etc. that have nothing to do with stolen generations...and as for Wilson Tuckey and the other gutless pollies who didn't even turn up to parliament for the apology-I feel sorry for you and those you represent.

The Secret Country by John Pilger is a good read, as is The Taming of The Great South Land, and Blood On The Wattle...they give a good broad historical account of settlement, not just the two "Great" wars, the first fleet and Don Bradman, as little johnny coward wanted His-story to be taught.

[apothecary]

They got some Stolen Generation people talking about it here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7241954.stm

After you skip the first few famous people who were all on the news before and after the apology today, some people say some interesting things.

[mark80]

Wow your post is so ignorant it's scary.

what can i say i guess i am ignorant?

No shit. Apology is admission of guilt. Did you have to take a subject to figure that one out too?

yes

I don't think he apologised enough! He should've apologised for all the dickheads who came before him who refused to apologise.

yet again why apologise for something you havn't done?

Yeah, I'm sure the native populace of this country has been conspiring for over 200 years to get an apology out of us for the purposes of a one off compo payment less than an annual salary at minimum wage. Your insinuation here is so unbelievably fucked up, well, I can't believe it.

Your right, that was a silly comment.

You talk about equality in terms of ABSTUDY and the Ministry of Indigenous Affairs, which is so fucking ignorant (like I said) it scares me. Why don't you consider equality in terms of life expectancy, literacy, incarceration rates, population distribution (how come a large chunk of Sydney's Aboriginal population can't get rent approval anywhere but Redfern?), etc, etc.

All of these are self inflicted. I (nor anyone else i can think of) has at any stage prevented them from learning to read and write. Life expectancy is a direct result from engaging in self destructive behaviours. Incaceration, is well from commiting crimes.

I have met many aborgines who have done well for themselves. About sydneys distrubtion, as i am not form there i can't really comment, but many groups get discriminated agaisnt.

I do not help those who don't wnat to help themselves.

My rough calculations indicate that if Australia renegged tomorrow and set up a $300 million "native" fund like Canada has for their natives, it'd be about $15 a head to cover the cost.

Why should i give them money? Honestly.

Well fuck you mark, I'd pay my share and twice of yours in a second, if it meant doing even the tiniest bit of good.

There is no need to take a personnel grudge agasint me becuase i ahve dfferent political view. As you have pointed out i am an idiot is that a reason to be nasty?

remind me again what good it would do? Do you say we compensate jews? and every other group that has been hard doen by at some stage?

LOL admission of guilt? what, would you prefer we pretend it never happened? geeze i can't believe this post, grow up mark.

History has come and gone, let by gones be by gones. it was poorly worded what i mean is that all your doing is bringing up past events.

Did you ever think that the vast majority of the people involved simply want recognition of the situation, some emotional closure from a fucked up life directly caused by ignorant white man?

we recongies the event. Do you really think that a little speech is going to cure a life time heart ache.

My previous post was silly and i should really reframe from talking about politics because my views usally piss people off.

so to all those that are hurt or offened i apologise.

Ohh BTW i am 1/2 aborginial.

[Vertmorpheus]

This is a bigarse post. Sorry

Mark, I really want you to read this bud. All of it. Failing that, JUST the bits under the line....I know... just humour me ok? Seeds doin well BTW...

wooooooooooooooooooooooo (thats that noise people make when they are about to say" FUCK FUCK SHIT POO HATE YELL SCREAM PISS BUGGERY" but stop short and think...

I was going to get very. very. very. angry with you then mark. But then I remembered a few things. Firstly, you know I'm of indigenous ancestry and you have my home address, which wouldn't be a problem, but after a few hundred years you end up with a special kind of precognition,sometimes called "Jewish Sonar"... often triggered by being called "them", by someone called "us".

I then remembered that you're from Townsville. I used to live there. I know what it's like... a crazy mix of social types and backgrounds, from the army boys to the JCU tribe... the laid back tropicanalians and the in-from-the-dust beefeaters... a 999 foot hill... 96 degree heat (ok, i exaggerate, only slightly), raining sideways, spending all xmas being told "you're about to be killed and deroofed by a massive cyclone, stock up on Spam" running around taping windows, only to be "let down"... again!

All the jokes aside (I jest in good fun and relief to be living somewhere else ) I DO remember the racial vibe... certainly a much higher proportion of the population is indigenous, and many of em are lovely, educated, sensible people... some of em are toerags, no denying it. Same goes for the non aboriginal and islander people, many are great (usually due for a skin check though) but there are "white" toerags too... unfortunately the "more threatening" of both "sides" have it well n truly in for each other... based on their personal experience of the situation (hey coon, get off the fuckin road) (hey brudda, gota a dollar por a mea'pie?) and their inherited opinions from parents etc. So... I choose not to hold you opinion against you, in the interest of sticking by my own maxim of remembering people have different cultural backgrounds. And yours seems to say that what you just wrote, is ok.

Some of if it "perfectly ok" by my own principles... it would be wrong to send you a personally addressed bill, or to get a knock on the door from some blackfellas with a cop and the cops saying "gday Mr. Eighty, sorry to interrupt.. just these people want to kick you in the nuts for a while? its part of the reconcilliation process...". I don't recall you being a murderous squatter, a godless cockey or a misguided "protector"... youre just you. You sent me seeds, of plants that were first learnt about by someone elses blackfellas ;) So I forgive you, WITHOUT an apology.

On the other hand... did you know Abstudy is no easier to get on than Newstart, once the statistical likelihood of educational differences has been taken into account? That the "differential" has been lauded by the WHO and the UN as being an oddly reasonably example of Australian race relations? That the few somewhat over the top allowances much ranted about in the mid to late 90s have now been "corrected" in line with Centrelinks profit margin based procedure? (did you know Centrelink has an ABN?They're a business... .?

That for every well educated paperwork-savvy blackfella that can "rort" the system there are an equal or greater number of almost gratuiously educated middle class white kids doing the same? How many of "you" ALWAYS tell Centrelink the minute you get work? bugger all... any of us with any sense,background aside, gets the first paycheck, THEN tell em, THEN pay the last payment back...otherwise youre fucked for three week waiting to get paid by anyone). Not everyone does this.

Most young indig ppl that arent working are on... not Abstudy... Just Newstart, and ticking the indig box DOES NOT GIVE YOU MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE barring certain remote area allowances that are available to ANYONE regardless of background? Thats the truth. Ring em and ask.

The reason there was any distinction made in the first place between Aus- and Ab-study was because it was pre data dump days... it was easier to keep the "cross culturally aware" and specially trained staff in one section, and the "mainstream" in the other. Computer systems, admin systems, training programs, all were essentially different enough (mainly due to the systems inherent to the then DAA) that to compartmentalise their data was easier than to "retag" it... if that makes any sense. It's wasn't run or set up then as Centrelink is now... a CENTRAL (centa? get it?) data bank for agencies running from Tax, Education and Health to Corrective Services and Aged Care... so we can all go on the same servers now, with more tags per person? So now you CAN be a Disabled Islander Veteran and not have to sort with three different mobs... get it?

Having said all that... you DO have a point in terms of "positive" v "negative" discrimination... not ok to not hire someone for being black, but there may be a special training intitiative in your area to get black people work... believe it or not, it has even occured to many of "us"... and has formed something of the backbone of the beliefs of some well known indigenous leaders... we don't by default want, need or have an inherent belief that we deserve "special handling"... just a greater equity in terms of "our" access to services taken for granted by most of "you".

EXCEPT those of "you' who for whatever reason are marginalised, living in remote areas, has disadvantaged childhoods, suffered deep family trauma, etc... those of "you" understand just FINE... ask someone in Bamaga and someone in Charleville about the ease with which they can interface with medical, govt and welfare services, education and health, etc.. and BOTH will say... "we feel forgotten, and unimportant". And both have been, with the long standing and increasingly "centrocentric" approach to managing resources in Australia... people in Brisbane can't move for hospitals, schools, cops, doctors, etc... unlike those in say... Withcott ;).. who feel as if they are living somewhere near Mars in terms of their options shoul they want food, entertainment, medical care for themselves or their offspring, etc.

In terms of "special care" though... I have to get into the land of metaphor just for any kind of clarity. imagine this...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Australia is a household. There is a husband and a wife, the Husband is named Red... and the Wife Green. They have a few kids, named Grey, Brindle and Tawny. Red has kids from a previous marriage, but they dont come into this story much.

Theyve been together for a while now... gotten to know each other in some ways, couldnt be less known to each other in some ways if the ytried (welcome to love...). Thing is... Red is a bit of a bastard, and Green can be a bit of a whiner, at times. mainly because red has limited her ability to move freely, to associate with who or to do what she wants. Sometimes, he hits her. Rapes her. And the kids. Hes a touch easier on the kids than on her, because he has SOME sense of "duty"... and besides, they're kinda useful... most of em are hell bent on bettering themselves, somehow, within their means... and the more THEY earn, the more he can charge em for rent in their poorly furnished rooms, in a house where therre often isnt enough food on the table or medicine in the fridge, but usually enough beer and hot chips to keep everyone quiet.

Green, the wife, basically gets on with Red and tries to appease him where possible, mainly as being with him has put her on very bad terms with her "old neighbourhood"... she wouldnt know how to live there anymore if she was allowed in the first place. So she has to stay with him to survive. They live in a small town anyway, and one word from Red and neither her or the kids of their union would be able to get work, or go unharassed, for very long. A lot of this has to do that some of Reds kids from his first marriage are police, employers, business owners, legislators. So wife n kids just have to try not to piss him off... and to some extent, Red has been trying to be better of late...mainly as he worries about what the neighbours hear on queit nights, and the chances of Green and the kids blabbing to the people up the road, or her few old friends in other towns.

One day, after some particularly vicious treatment followed by a quiet, but still menacing spell... Red apologises. he has recognised that his old crazy ways are not only hurting those hes meant to be caring about, but those that to some extent cant help caring about him. he also realised that all that rage and darkness is starting to rot his guts, his soul. So he says sorry. he doesnt go into much detail, not wanting to go reminding anyone of anything that they may have already forgotte nabout ;). But he does say it.

Thing is, Green and the kids have heard it a few times before... sometimes he does something really nice, or actually caring, or for some reason sits down and really listens to them.. he has never gone as far as sorry before , but they could tell his old pure hatred was kinda fading... theyd been able to go out and do a few things, get some work of their own, that kind of thing.

Other thing is... Green keeps seein these ads on telly about how sorry is not good enough, that her and the kids should sever all ties inn light of the abuse. they dont really have any other option, with nowhere else to go, and not being in a position to take ideal care of themselves. So like many abused people, they have to stick around, and just try to have some kind of hope for the future... but being careful not tobuild it up too far, too fast, as having been let down a few times before, and living in something of a state of shellshock... their hearts really couldnt take being entirely betrayed again.

They could have more faith if they didn't hear Red mumbling in his sleep some nights, things like "just stop feedin em" and "back to how it was" and "think theyre so bloody special"...

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Does that help?

if not, think of recent history of aboriginal relations in australia (say last 30 years) being akin to first aid... you just realised that thump as you were driving was someone going under you car...someone is actually pretty badly injured and cant get to help themselves...and theyd probably be a lot happier had you not run em over to start with... so whilst trying to work out just what is wrong and jsut how to help them with it, out of a sense of yes, guilt and remorse and wanting to better yourself, you treat em really, really gently and probably overcompensate... use the kid gloves as it were, try not to shock or hurt them any further in your efforts to "help".

Sina, I know its easy to get fired up by proxy, and its an admirable thing (altruism is a lovely human trait, one of the finest) but the thing with Sorry is... its a bit pointless if the hate and harsh words keep flying after its been said. I really do appreciate the assistance but its hopefully a time for talking constructively even with (especially with?) those that seem most opposed to the process, rather than just dismissing them or making them feel you feel they are silly for merely believing what they feelto be the "truth". Of course, if they wont listen to anyone elses POV after stating their own, thats a different hting.... but we can only wait n see ;)

anyone still with me, I thankye muchly for your reading time!

VM

[gilligan]

This is a bigarse post.

Fucking oath, Vert. Some good points

I used to think that it was something that should be gotten over, but then had a cross cultural awareness course (i work in mining) and we were able to freely talk with a few blackfellas over the course of a few days about different things, and hear their stories, and fuck me did it make me change my mind (i've still got some agro feelings towards some blackfellas, but that's as a result of sunny Leonora, WA - however, before the course it was the majority of blackfellas). I heard stuff we were never taught in schools, and that had basically been swept under the carpet like the usual dirt and rug scenario - and why? because people in power basically could. Censorship? You betcha, on a massive scale. The result of a lot of todays issues with indigenous sociality stem from the undercurrents of yesteryear, and it is one hell of an intergenerational issue, problem behests problem, behests problem...

From what we were told, the "sorry" is what a lot of indig folk were after - they needed the sorry to be able to put it past them - ever hear of sorry time?

The compo is another question - if it would help, then fantastic. Problem is i don't think it will help many people... a lot of indig people don't have the skills to manage their compo payout, and as such, would soon be in a similar situation to that they are facing now. And then there are those that would claim they could help others manage it, all the while feathering their own nest. Opportunistic.

The compo, if it ever eventuates, needs to not go to the individual, but be used to help the race as a whole, as previously mentioned, housing, health issues, life expectancy, and social acceptance/involvement need to be addressed, and not on a wishywashy scale. It's a massive thing to undertake, and there is no quick fix, but money to the individual is not the answer i believe.

I don't have an answer, but i now have an empathy (not sympathy, this is almost as bad as racism itself i believe). I think that empathy is a start. If 'sorry' is the start of what it takes to bring the blackfellas into a 'harmonious' existence with whitefellas (a level playing field), then thank the dreamtime spirits it has been said. Let the next stage begin, and let the healing start.

[mark80]

This is a bigarse post. Sorry

Mark, I really want you to read this bud. All of it. Failing that, JUST the bits under the line....I know... just humour me ok? Seeds doin well BTW...

glad to here.

wooooooooooooooooooooooo (thats that noise people make when they are about to say" FUCK FUCK SHIT POO HATE YELL SCREAM PISS BUGGERY" but stop short and think...

I was going to get very. very. very. angry with you then mark. But then I remembered a few things. Firstly, you know I'm of indigenous ancestry and you have my home address, which wouldn't be a problem, but after a few hundred years you end up with a special kind of precognition,sometimes called "Jewish Sonar"... often triggered by being called "them", by someone called "us".

I had no idea you were of indegnious ancestry and so am i. A few forum memebers have seen me and i am sure that will say i am aboriginial.

the reason i used "them" is because that is exaclty what your doing. your taking a segemnt of the population and giving them special treatment. Not all abroginial families were effected.

I then remembered that you're from Townsville. I used to live there. I know what it's like... a crazy mix of social types and backgrounds, from the army boys to the JCU tribe... the laid back tropicanalians and the in-from-the-dust beefeaters... a 999 foot hill... 96 degree heat (ok, i exaggerate, only slightly), raining sideways, spending all xmas being told "you're about to be killed and deroofed by a massive cyclone, stock up on Spam" running around taping windows, only to be "let down"... again!

All the jokes aside (I jest in good fun and relief to be living somewhere else ) I DO remember the racial vibe... certainly a much higher proportion of the population is indigenous, and many of em are lovely, educated, sensible people... some of em are toerags, no denying it. Same goes for the non aboriginal and islander people, many are great (usually due for a skin check though) but there are "white" toerags too... unfortunately the "more threatening" of both "sides" have it well n truly in for each other... based on their personal experience of the situation (hey coon, get off the fuckin road) (hey brudda, gota a dollar por a mea'pie?) and their inherited opinions from parents etc. So... I choose not to hold you opinion against you, in the interest of sticking by my own maxim of remembering people have different cultural backgrounds.

And yours seems to say that what you just wrote, is ok.

Being aborginial is hard for me because of the preconcived notion of who i am surposed to be. Everyone thinks i got where i am form handouts. When i have never asocited myslef with any of these things.

Some of if it "perfectly ok" by my own principles... it would be wrong to send you a personally addressed bill, or to get a knock on the door from some blackfellas with a cop and the cops saying "gday Mr. Eighty, sorry to interrupt.. just these people want to kick you in the nuts for a while? its part of the reconcilliation process...". I don't recall you being a murderous squatter, a godless cockey or a misguided "protector"... youre just you. You sent me seeds, of plants that were first learnt about by someone elses blackfellas ;) So I forgive you, WITHOUT an apology.

now that wasn't hard was it.

On the other hand... did you know Abstudy is no easier to get on than Newstart, once the statistical likelihood of educational differences has been taken into account? yet again i ask whos fault is that?

That the "differential" has been lauded by the WHO and the UN as being an oddly reasonably example of Australian race relations? That the few somewhat over the top allowances much ranted about in the mid to late 90s have now been "corrected" in line with Centrelinks profit margin based procedure? (did you know Centrelink has an ABN?They're a business... .?

That for every well educated paperwork-savvy blackfella that can "rort" the system there are an equal or greater number of almost gratuiously educated middle class white kids doing the same? How many of "you" ALWAYS tell Centrelink the minute you get work? bugger all... any of us with any sense,background aside, gets the first paycheck, THEN tell em, THEN pay the last payment back...otherwise youre fucked for three week waiting to get paid by anyone). Not everyone does this.

Most young indig ppl that arent working are on... not Abstudy... Just Newstart, and ticking the indig box DOES NOT GIVE YOU MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE barring certain remote area allowances that are available to ANYONE regardless of background? Thats the truth. Ring em and ask.

i never said that. If you wnat equailty you need to conform to the way evryone else lives. get rid of it and give out austudy.

The reason there was any distinction made in the first place between Aus- and Ab-study was because it was pre data dump days... it was easier to keep the "cross culturally aware" and specially trained staff in one section, and the "mainstream" in the other. Computer systems, admin systems, training programs, all were essentially different enough (mainly due to the systems inherent to the then DAA) that to compartmentalise their data was easier than to "retag" it... if that makes any sense. It's wasn't run or set up then as Centrelink is now... a CENTRAL (centa? get it?) data bank for agencies running from Tax, Education and Health to Corrective Services and Aged Care... so we can all go on the same servers now, with more tags per person? So now you CAN be a Disabled Islander Veteran and not have to sort with three different mobs... get it?

if you wnat equailty you can't expect people trained to your specific cultrual needs. you go with all the other jews, italians, arabs, etc.

Having said all that... you DO have a point in terms of "positive" v "negative" discrimination... not ok to not hire someone for being black, but there may be a special training intitiative in your area to get black people work... believe it or not, it has even occured to many of "us"... and has formed something of the backbone of the beliefs of some well known indigenous leaders... we don't by default want, need or have an inherent belief that we deserve "special handling"... just a greater equity in terms of "our"

equailty means that aborginials will have to forfiet there claim indignous housing communites bought with tax payers money.

access to services taken for granted by most of "you".

They have acess to services they just choose not to use it. not my fault.

EXCEPT those of "you' who for whatever reason are marginalised, living in remote areas, has disadvantaged childhoods, suffered deep family trauma, etc... those of "you" understand just FINE... ask someone in Bamaga and someone in Charleville about the ease with which they can interface with medical, govt and welfare services, education and health, etc.. and BOTH will say... "we feel forgotten, and unimportant". And both have been, with the long standing and increasingly "centrocentric" approach to managing resources in Australia... people in Brisbane can't move for hospitals, schools, cops, doctors, etc... unlike those in say... Withcott ;).. who feel as if they are living somewhere near Mars in terms of their options shoul they want food, entertainment, medical care for themselves or their offspring, etc.

This has nothing to do with aborginials, white folk have the smae porblem.

In terms of "special care" though... I have to get into the land of metaphor just for any kind of clarity. imagine this...

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________

Australia is a household. There is a husband and a wife, the Husband is named Red... and the Wife Green. They have a few kids, named Grey, Brindle and Tawny. Red has kids from a previous marriage, but they dont come into this story much.

Theyve been together for a while now... gotten to know each other in some ways, couldnt be less known to each other in some ways if the ytried (welcome to love...). Thing is... Red is a bit of a bastard, and Green can be a bit of a whiner, at times. mainly because red has limited her ability to move freely, to associate with who or to do what she wants. Sometimes, he hits her. Rapes her. And the kids. Hes a touch easier on the kids than on her, because he has SOME sense of "duty"... and besides, they're kinda useful... most of em are hell bent on bettering themselves, somehow, within their means... and the more THEY earn, the more he can charge em for rent in their poorly furnished rooms, in a house where therre often isnt enough food on the table or medicine in the fridge, but usually enough beer and hot chips to keep everyone quiet.

Green, the wife, basically gets on with Red and tries to appease him where possible, mainly as being with him has put her on very bad terms with her "old neighbourhood"... she wouldnt know how to live there anymore if she was allowed in the first place. So she has to stay with him to survive. They live in a small town anyway, and one word from Red and neither her or the kids of their union would be able to get work, or go unharassed, for very long. A lot of this has to do that some of Reds kids from his first marriage are police, employers, business owners, legislators. So wife n kids just have to try not to piss him off... and to some extent, Red has been trying to be better of late...mainly as he worries about what the neighbours hear on queit nights, and the chances of Green and the kids blabbing to the people up the road, or her few old friends in other towns.

One day, after some particularly vicious treatment followed by a quiet, but still menacing spell... Red apologises. he has recognised that his old crazy ways are not only hurting those hes meant to be caring about, but those that to some extent cant help caring about him. he also realised that all that rage and darkness is starting to rot his guts, his soul. So he says sorry. he doesnt go into much detail, not wanting to go reminding anyone of anything that they may have already forgotte nabout ;). But he does say it.

Thing is, Green and the kids have heard it a few times before... sometimes he does something really nice, or actually caring, or for some reason sits down and really listens to them.. he has never gone as far as sorry before , but they could tell his old pure hatred was kinda fading... theyd been able to go out and do a few things, get some work of their own, that kind of thing.

Other thing is... Green keeps seein these ads on telly about how sorry is not good enough, that her and the kids should sever all ties inn light of the abuse. they dont really have any other option, with nowhere else to go, and not being in a position to take ideal care of themselves. So like many abused people, they have to stick around, and just try to have some kind of hope for the future... but being careful not tobuild it up too far, too fast, as having been let down a few times before, and living in something of a state of shellshock... their hearts really couldnt take being entirely betrayed again.

They could have more faith if they didn't hear Red mumbling in his sleep some nights, things like "just stop feedin em" and "back to how it was" and "think theyre so bloody special"...

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Does that help?

Your writing style is entertaining.

if not, think of recent history of aboriginal relations in australia (say last 30 years) being akin to first aid... you just realised that thump as you were driving was someone going under you car...someone is actually pretty badly injured and cant get to help themselves...and theyd probably be a lot happier had you not run em over to start with... so whilst trying to work out just what is wrong and jsut how to help them with it, out of a sense of yes, guilt and remorse and wanting to better yourself, you treat em really, really gently and probably overcompensate... use the kid gloves as it were, try not to shock or hurt them any further in your efforts to "help".

What happened was wrong. no doubt. Do you expect your kid to appolgise for what his father has done? no you don't.

Racism isn't just me beating up the next blackfella i see. Its making a distinction between ppl based on race. Thats exactly what your doing here, people have differnt needs and you should cater for it. But i don't see gerstudy or italsrtudy or afracianamericanstudy? do you?

Sina, I know its easy to get fired up by proxy, and its an admirable thing (altruism is a lovely human trait, one of the finest) but the thing with Sorry is... its a bit pointless if the hate and harsh words keep flying after its been said. I really do appreciate the assistance but its hopefully a time for talking constructively even with (especially with?) those that seem most opposed to the process, rather than just dismissing them or making them feel you feel they are silly for merely believing what they feelto be the "truth". Of course, if they wont listen to anyone elses POV after stating their own, thats a different hting.... but we can only wait n see ;)

I have heard what you all ahve said and i have new perspective. Sina can swear all he wants at me, if he wnats to hate me because i hate racism in all forms and that i am uposed to appolgising for someone else mistake than let him.

anyone still with me, I thankye muchly for your reading time!

VM