New penalties for hydroponic cannabis in NSW

[prier]

In my experience it is only 'experienced' or seasoned smokers who want bush. But these same people are generally the kind of people who limit their usage in other ways aswell, ie. frequency. It's normally the ex-stoners, who continue to smoke, but don't want to be hopeless addicts, that prefer bush. I am one of these people, I would prefer bush personally aswell.

But most 'stoners', people who just want to be baked, and out of it, 24/7, prefer hydro IME.

People who smoke for enlightenment, relaxation, or just for the love of it (read: most peeps on this forum) are the people who seek bush. The people who are looking to get 'whacked' want Hydro. And unfortunately most drug users fit into the 'get whacked' category in Sydney.

When I Smoked I was one of those 'get whacked' type stoners, I used marijuana as a real escapism tool. One of the main things I've noticed between living a smoking lifestyle and not smoking at all is that I'm really not very creative when I'm not smoking. Recently I've been wanting to start smoking occasionally, but the thought of smoking hydro again kinda scares me a bit.

I don't know much about the smoking scene in Melbourne because I haven't been there for all that long, but where I grew up (where I know where to get weed) it's pretty much all just hydro. Finding outdoor grown stuff seems to be really hard thing to find.

I think it's that there's a big market out there for hydro on account of the fact that people that want hydro usually want it everyday (to feed there addiction) and that people who want the occasional bit of outdoor grown stuff usually just grow that themselves and keep it either to themselves or there group of friends, I think it's very rare that people grow outdoor stuff as a money making scheme.

In my opinion pretty much all Marijuana grown to be 'sold' is done with hydroponics.

[Eikel]

I agree with most things you said, but not this. It simply doesn't make sense. The plant continuously produces crystals and in outside conditions these are removed by wind, water and maybe even sun (UV). Any outdoor grower knows not to harvest after heavy rain as the pot will be weak.

Sure, a clone grown under indoor lights and another grown in a shed with skylights might be of similar potency as there is no physical removal of crystals, but 'outdoor' growing usually does not imply 'shed'.

Thus, outdoor pot will usually only have the crystals from the las few days or maybe weeks on it, but very little of the older stuff. This dramatically changes the constituent profile.

Before indoor strain breeding became popular people used to grow the same strains indoors as outdoors. The indoor was always MUCH stronger. I do not understand why anyone would want to challenge these facts.

UV-B STIMULATES trichome production, sativas particularly do much better under the sun than lights.

In any Hydro setup operating HID lights, you will have ventilation in excess of what the plant would normally encounter (looking at averages), I have oscilating fans blowing on all my plants directly when growing indoors, as does almost every grower (or at least fixed fans).

The "Crystals" you dscribe are called trichomes, I don't believe these can be "blown" off, infact the technique to remove them to make bubble hash is to freeze them and then place in water and agitate the mix to get the trichomes to "drop" off the plant, this can be done multiple times on the same material each yielding a nice amount of resin. Perhaps if you got frosts along with strong winds what you state in terms of lower potency would occur, but your plants would not do well, as MJ doesn't like the extreme cold.

I have grown exact same strains outdoors, and indoors, not technically hydro since I like organics and use soil, there IS NO DIFFERENCE in potency, STRAIN and the GROWER affect the ultimate results, the method used to grow them doesn't really make any difference.

I challenge these "facts" because they are not "facts" they are misinformation propogated to demonize "Hydro" growers... that said, growing a sativa-dominant strain in a greenhouse is cheaper and will likely yield more than growing indoor plants under HIDS, and because of the UV-B affect, will produce MORE trichomes.

(I'm assuming most growers are like myself and don't go to the extent of bying specific UV-B bulbs).

If you'd like evidence of what I'm saying, please visit OSA, you will see pictures FOR YOURSELF along with smoke reports and "diaries" of the plants being grown. Hydro = Potency is a wank. Hydro - 365 days a year of growing season, is where the matter lies.

[apothecary]

Had this same argument on this same topic twice before now.

I would like to see your research indicating UV-B increases trichome production Eikel, as this is not what my own reading of actual research has indicated.

Rather that UV-B lamps placed at an appropriate distance (too far has no effect, too close means death to the plant) will increase net CBG in the trichomes, and hence increase net THC upon drying. The number of trichomes themselves is the same or possibly less than without.

Bubble hash is hardly the only way to remove trichomes from bud, placing a nugget in a container and merely shaking it will remove plenty of them.

Your argument that strong frosts and gale force winds would be required to have an impact on the potency of a bud still growing on the plant is rediculous. All cannabinoids are photosensitive to some degree in wet form (such as on the plant) and thus degrade quite easily under full sun. Moderately harsh outdoor conditions (sun wind rain) can very quickly lead to a drop in potency.

The anecdote you provide yourself pits a sativa grown indoors vs a sativa grown sheltered from rain and wind outside! How is this a fair outdoor vs indoor comparison?

I am not saying hydro is stronger, I don't think Torsten is saying that either. What I am saying is that plants sheltered from harsh conditions are obviously going to be at a higher (if not maximum) potency, while plants grown outdoors and exposed to dry winds or lots of rain are going to be obviously less than that.

Grow diaries, smoke reports and pictures (unless they are high res comprehensive shots comparing trichome production, which I doubt) do not meet the cut in my eyes compared to the research on this stuff I witnessed while a member of overgrow.

[botanika]

This topic has been great. It seems a lot of us are conessiours dissapointed at how hydro or indoor growing has changed the situation - commercially at least. For me its a dissapointment in the lack of variety and joy of being suprised by a strain or smoke. It always appeared to me australia's commercial market is flooded with quickly grown (and dare I say boring and numbing) similar indica varieties. Sydney is not amsterdam unfortunately. Many methods of growing both indoor and outdoor can produce good smoke if the strains are well chosen and grown with some TLC and expert knowledge. I personally dont want the strongest smoke out there but the most uplifting and rewarding - The type of high where you smoke and forget you have the joint or pipe in your hand because your off high thinking about something interesting. I find indica varieties interesting for their fat form and resin content but find I smoke much more of it, as some people have mentioned happening with 'hydro', its more narcotic like. The bush bud days for me and my friends had plenty of moldy harsh episodes but it seemed to make the 'pot luck' suprise of getting fresh well grown (usually Sativa) weed even more of a treasure to enjoy.

[Eikel]

Hrm, for some reason the site died when I originally tried to upload pics.... copying-pasting my reply and not uploading pics again hehe

UV-B I'll have to get back to you on, if I'm wrong I'm wrong, sorry. The information was second-hand, I've never actually tested it myself.

Bubble hash is hardly the only way to remove trichomes from bud, placing a nugget in a container and merely shaking it will remove plenty of them.

Try it on an undried newly-picked bud, what happens? Yes, I'll accept your apology.

I am not saying hydro is stronger, I don't think Torsten is saying that either. What I am saying is that plants sheltered from harsh conditions are obviously going to be at a higher (if not maximum) potency, while plants grown outdoors and exposed to dry winds or lots of rain are going to be obviously less than that.

Potency will be no different, yeild will be affected.

I don't want to cause offense, but misinformation from people who've never actually DONE IT, pisses me off.

Grow diaries, smoke reports and pictures (unless they are high res comprehensive shots comparing trichome production, which I doubt) do not meet the cut in my eyes compared to the research on this stuff I witnessed while a member of overgrow.

OverGrow is a dirty word - only useful part of that site was the GrowFAQ, I'm dissapointed it's gone because now idiots are coming to OSA to bigname themselves on a new site. Also dissapointing that people do things like stick toothpicks through rockwool cubes to show they're "rooted-clones" OG has no credibility in my book.

I have 6Gb of high-res 5MP shots, all from my own grows, how many would you like me to post?

[occidentalis]

I have 6Gb of high-res 5MP shots, all from my own grows, how many would you like me to post?

Depends on how much attention you want to draw to this site, on which people never make statements like this, for obvious reasons...

[Benzito]

Your "own grows" Eikel?

Is that grown in regional VIC, where you live?

I sincerely hope not.

[Eikel]

Your "own grows" Eikel?

Is that grown in regional VIC, where you live?

I sincerely hope not.

Ik heb lifde in het Nederlands voor 2.5 jaar, wat denk jij?

(I had lived in Holland for 2.5 years, what do you think?).

Pictures of plants grown in countries where they are legal, is not illegal.

Technically though, I can keep a single plant oudoors and the most I risk is a warning, not that I do.

I don't sell weed if that's the assumption you mistakenly are making?

(Edit - to fix my Dutch, I think the "lifde" is the wrong word though).

[Benzito]

I don't sell weed if that's the assumption you mistakenly are making?

It is actually you who is mistakenly making assumptions now.

All I said was:

Your "own grows" Eikel?

Is that grown in regional VIC, where you live?

I sincerely hope not.

I was hoping you weren't growing Marijuana in regional Victoria, because that would be illegal.

No need to be defensive man. Now you've cleared it up and said that you grew it whilst in Holland, you haven't incriminated yourself.

Incriminating posts are against the posting rules, that was all.

[Eikel]

It is actually you who is mistakenly making assumptions now.

All I said was:

I was hoping you weren't growing Marijuana in regional Victoria, because that would be illegal.

No need to be defensive man. Now you've cleared it up and said that you grew it whilst in Holland, you haven't incriminated yourself.

Incriminating posts are against the posting rules, that was all.

Sorry mate, my bad.

This topic is frustrating me because it's so full of misinformation, and I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere telling it "like it is".

[botanika]

and I don't feel like I'm getting anywhere telling it "like it is".

Where are you trying to get to? The topic was about a change in the laws of cannabis cultivation. Anyone can click on any web page/forum and perceive it or drag it off on a tangent any way they want. I personally like this dynamic uncontrollable nature of the net. Sometimes Im informed of good information because of misinformation.

[Eikel]

Where are you trying to get to? The topic was about a change in the laws of cannabis cultivation. Anyone can click on any web page/forum and perceive it or drag it off on a tangent any way they want. I personally like this dynamic uncontrollable nature of the net. Sometimes Im informed of good information because of misinformation.

I'm just trying to correct a falsehood, I don't want to "get" anywhere.

The statement "Hydroponic" = increase in potency, which was the precursor to increasing the penalties for cultivating Hydroponic cannabis. Is a falsehood, and misrepresentation of scientific data.

Torsten asked for someone with more insight to respond, so I did, then he disagreed with me, so I replied, then someone else disagreed with me, so I replied. If you have FACTUAL DATA that can PROVE to me, that Hydroponic cultivation = increased potency, I'm happy to say I'm wrong.

That said, regarding Hydro = Potency.

If that were the case, the Bubblegum I used to smoke in Holland should be CRAP (outdoor grown, in fields).

And the Skunk I smoked in Holland should be KILLER (hydroponic grown, in a warehouse.).

And the WhiteWidow should've been less potent when I bought it Hydro than outdoor.

White Widow I have tried.

1. Outdoor grown in a field.

2. Indoor grown in Hydroponics.

3. Indoor grown in greenhouses.

The difference between the 3 smokes, was the size of the buds, not the potency of the smoke, the plants were grown by the same guy on his ex-tulip farm.

And then... even based on my own legal cultivation of MJ, the theory Hydro = Potency is crap.

Sorry if I seem arrogant and rude, but it annoys me when the Government (and even people I hold respect for with regards to ethnobotanical knowledge) ignores reality for a myth.

[apothecary]

Hrm, for some reason the site died when I originally tried to upload pics.... copying-pasting my reply and not uploading pics again hehe

Try it on an undried newly-picked bud, what happens? Yes, I'll accept your apology.

Potency will be no different, yeild will be affected.

I think the suggestion that somehow Cannabis sativa trichomes on fresh bud are impervious to the elements is silly. No evidence of actual testing on this stuff supports what you are saying.

Since most of the potency directly correlates to trichome cannabinoid content, I would say potency would be directly effected by exposure to the elements.

(i.e. if there are less trichomes, then the bud is less potent)

I don't want to cause offense, but misinformation from people who've never actually DONE IT, pisses me off.

I'm sure you've never seen an Eidelweiss, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Just because you haven't been bothered to look up research by people who actually test this stuff, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

OverGrow is a dirty word - only useful part of that site was the GrowFAQ, I'm dissapointed it's gone because now idiots are coming to OSA to bigname themselves on a new site. Also dissapointing that people do things like stick toothpicks through rockwool cubes to show they're "rooted-clones" OG has no credibility in my book.

I take exception to that. Your statement doesn't even make sense. The growFAQs on OG were all compiled from research done in the forums. If you think they were useful then you must agree the research being done on the site was useful.

You are generalising the whole overgrow community based only on what you read yourself.

I have seen lots of good research come from overgrow, microscope shots of male Cannabis sperm from pollen travelling down pistils to inseminate the buds, research into root mass based on light cycles, new grow techniques that would otherwise remain unpublished except in the higher circles in Holland, UV testing on plants, and innumerable other bits of very valuable and in depth research.

I think you would also do well to recognise that the founders of OSA were newbies on OG at some point well before that (I distinctly remember when they started spamming the OG Australasia section with links to OSA), and that for every person who you wouldn't judge to be an idiot on OSA, there were probably four or five such people on OG.

Lastly, the statement about hydroponic buds being worthy of harsher fines than outdoor buds is probably the closest to a smart decision the NSW government has come to about Cannabis growing. I'm not sure if you're aware but lots of the hydro grown in places like Sydney (especially in lower income areas) are quick and dirty operations run by gangs, mineral salt nutrient solutions are often used and very rarely properly flushed before harvesting.

I would rather see such buds gone from the market at the cost of availability than to have them around. Maybe it would even drive up the availability of outdoor buds in response.

[cisumevil]

I hear you Eikel & IMHO everything you say is correct!

Hydro = More potency (Is Bullshit)

Nothing comes close to my FOAF's outdoor grown "Neviles Haze" even the same clones taken off same mother plant grown in a friend of the FOAF's indoor grow room! Sorry but the outdoor is more potent even with all the rain and the wind stealing all of the trichomes

[Eikel]

(i.e. if there are less trichomes, then the bud is less potent)

You are generalising the whole overgrow community based only on what you read yourself.

I have seen lots of good research come from overgrow, microscope shots of male Cannabis sperm from pollen travelling down pistils to inseminate the buds, research into root mass based on light cycles, new grow techniques that would otherwise remain unpublished except in the higher circles in Holland, UV testing on plants, and innumerable other bits of very valuable and in depth research.

I think you would also do well to recognise that the founders of OSA were newbies on OG at some point well before that (I distinctly remember when they started spamming the OG Australasia section with links to OSA), and that for every person who you wouldn't judge to be an idiot on OSA, there were probably four or five such people on OG.

OSA people even the fuckheads never made me want to leave a place I love and contributed alot to over the time I was there. OG dickheads just did.

I don't care apothecary - as far as I'm concerned people in OG are not willing to accept reality, and will argue and flame till they're blue in the face. I resigned from OSA 10 minutes ago due to this behaviour. Will say goodbye to SA too, I'm tired of arguing.

With a heavy heart - goodbye, thanks to all the people I've chatted with, you've got my e-mail or my MSN, or can find me on CS, keep in touch! Bye!

[Benzito]

Wow, that was a very extreme reaction!

Apo, what did you do?

Well, if Eikel felt the need to abandon every single forum he uses, I get the feeling there is something much deeper than a few petty arguments.

I think he was the only one who got argumentative anyway.

EDIT: Eikel, you would still always be welcome on SAB, regardless of this thread. Please don't take my post as a dismissal of yourself, or your opinions.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Benzito

[Dodie]

Woah yeah that was just a bit too extreme...heh, In all of what i read nooone was having a go at him, just trying to show their own personal opinions. I haven't really taken anyones words on this particular subject to be facts. I'll just keep these in mind if i choose to do my own research on this subject.

Maybe he's just one of those control freaks that when you challenge him, he just can't handle it and doesn't like to be told that he's wrong. Even though i dont think anyone is wrong...

I love this forum

[botanika]

someone here once argued with me over some general comments - i only ended up respecting him and this site more. it doesnt matter who's wrong or right. Eikel, im sure u have enough compassion to accomodate the range of opinions on here, its all good knowledge exchange at the end of the day!

Edited February 16, 2006 by botanika

[Rev]

Eikel

i know you quit the forums but really there was no need

and there is no loss of face in reversing the decision

i think you could become a valuable member here

no-one expects everyone to agree or anyone to be right everytime.

Thats how life is, u know

I think we here at SAB have a good rep at being not afraid to question and 'authority', and those who stay are either not afraid to step up to those questions or admit their inability to counter them and say ' i dont know' cos its the truth we want - not a guru. At the end of an argument we often all still like one another as being right or wrong is no reflection on your character, thats always about how you handled yourself in the argument not whether you win or lose. and we are pretty forgiving.

thats one of the reasons i love this place

[mescalito]

Eikel may only be reacting now because he's frustrated at hearing the same bullshit repeated verbatum...and a successful grower knows what he's on about as far as his own experience goes and we all know what that's like ..besides we're all wired differently anyway which makes it even harder to generalise on subjective experiences IMO.

It's pretty easy to get a bee in your undies over stuff and vent on the net via forums etc...it's happened to me before and I almost resigned too.But the fact remained that unknown to myself I was already a well respected member regardless of my outburst and one disagreement/misunderstanding doesn't change this status.

I'm actually truly thankfull for the support I've personally received here as the acceptance contributed largely to alter my low self opinion and helped me to believe I had a right to express the way I feel....this skill I have taken into the outside world and I have T and other forum members to thank.

Anyway back on track re:hydro v bush I totally agree that STRAIN is the more dominant factor involved.We could get into arguments about trichomes,weather,UV levels or whatever but the SEED contains the genetic information needed to produce the variable actives not the way it's grown.If there are adulterants in the hydropinc nutrient, then that's a different story.You can't get something for nothing and besides trichomes are oily substances and won't be washed off easily with rain when grown outdoors.Trichome loss does however come from poor handling and physical abrasion from swaying branches in the wind BUT this tells the plant to produce more anyway so knowing when and how to harvest will give a greater yield in the end.

The fact that it is illegal drives people to grow indoors.

The world is full of greedy people.

Greedy people go for fast growing squat high yielders.

Fast growing squat high yielding plants are STRAIN dependant and tend to fuck with your head!

This of course is all my opinion based on growing several known varieties a LONG time ago precisely for their desired effects.I've always taken my drug taking seriously and never hedonistically.Part of the learning curve was realising that buds should be harvested individually as they almost ripen not as a whole plant pulled up at once.This practise with the right strain always lead to a medicinal and enjoyable mellow experience poles apart from the SKUNK dominant mass produced high turnover gear that most if not all growers have these days.

Anyway 'nuff said by me ^_^

[Eikel]

Waitaminute, I'm not quite finished throwing my tantrum yet

Ok, over and done with now

But yeah, I get frustrated about stuff I don't believe and heard repeated verbatim as fact. If you offer me proof I'm incorrect, I'm happy to be proven wrong, but don't offer me second-hand info without data to back it up, that just annoys me.

Anyways, sorry for acting like a 4-yr old, I'll be nice

[apothecary]

I would be happy to show data if overgrow wasn't down

Good to see you back Eikel!

[Dodie]

Good to have you back on board Eikel. I'm sure we will gain alot of useful knowledge from you and opinions and of course, vice versa.

[Rev]

what about the issue of maturity

my travels in the world have had me consistently seed people harvest hydro bud at a very late stage indeed comapred to outdoor

the outdoor shit was harvested at what i knew as maturity, when most of the hairs turn browm and resin flow is high. The end product oft has an anmber to clear resin content

the dry matter of these buds is low compared to the hydro the hydro ones seem to have little to no hairs left, the calyxes are swollen and heavily covered in opaque to yellow resin

due to security hassles, mould and other climate issues outdoor stuff seem sto be harvested earlier

do you see how this may be a signifiant contributing factor

[Eikel]

what about the issue of maturity

my travels in the world have had me consistently seed people harvest hydro bud at a very late stage indeed comapred to outdoor

Dunno mate, I find the opposite, outdoor plants have many, many more weeks of flower than indoor, i.e. September->May, flowering starts approx late-feb early-march (in southern hemisphere that is).

Indoor is typically run on the "flower" cycle for 8-12 weeks, or dependant on the strain, some are as low as 6 weeks from start of 12/12 to harvest.... some will even "autoflower" irrelavant of the lighting cycle and climate etc etc..

the outdoor shit was harvested at what i knew as maturity, when most of the hairs turn browm and resin flow is high. The end product oft has an anmber to clear resin content

the dry matter of these buds is low compared to the hydro the hydro ones seem to have little to no hairs left, the calyxes are swollen and heavily covered in opaque to yellow resin

That's the key to harvesting, "clear" or "transparent" trichs will contain higher THC levels, lower CBD and CBN, "couldy" trichs are about 50/50, and "amber" is higher in CBD/CBN than THC.

But even so - that's more to do with the grower than the method of growth no? There is no "procedure" for growing MJ, it's whatever you want your pot to be like at the end of the day.

due to security hassles, mould and other climate issues outdoor stuff seem sto be harvested earlier

do you see how this may be a signifiant contributing factor

I see it as a contributing factor in the fact people don't understand the grower is making the pot "different" not the style of growth - i.e. I can grow 2 plants, exact same medium, ferts, etc etc... one under lights, one outdoor, the outdoor plant will take MUCH longer to develop, the indoor one could be harvested within 12 weeks or possibly less dependant on strain and if you're starting from clone or not, you can't do that outdoors, the plants will grow at their own pace under the sun, there is no "switching" from light cycles unless you manually cover your plants at a certain time to induce flowering.

There are MANY MANY variables at work concerning MJ "potency", plus the fact not everyone considers the same smoke "potent", I've been floored by stuff that hasn't hit the other people I'm with and vicea versa.

Essentially to say Hydro = Potency is a misunderstanding of the plants behavior in growth, you can affect things like THC/CBD/CBN ratios in any style of grow dependant on when you harvest, good grown pot is good grown pot, whether it's hydro or outdoors, what then would you say about outdoors-hydro, using intert mediums and chemical ferts and the sun for lighting?

If you like I can show you some example pics of indoor vs outdoor plants at varying stages of maturity, it is (in my experience that) the strain (genetics), and grower (nurturing), that will affect the potency of the end product, not whether the plant is under lights or under the sun, or inside a protected area or in the middle of a clearing in the bush.

Did that ramble make any sense? I think I lost my point in there somewhere haha

Edited February 20, 2006 by Eikel