sleep as a form of ego death (attachment to reality)

[qualia]

so in a typically exhausting night of "sleep" (i couldn't really call it that), i was able to put into a broader context my problem exactly. when i fall asleep, and begin to descend to the rem state, i notice that the transition from waking to reality to the alternate reality of the dream state is a bit of a problem for me. it seems that i have a certain attachment to the waking state and when i start to dream i try and flee from that. this creates a bit of a flight or fight reaction and i get stressed a bit, and that leads to further sleep problems. but it's not the dreams/rem in themselves that i flee, but the the fact that it is, in a certain sense, and alternate reality, and my ego can't detach from the waking perception of reality and transition to sleep. it's only after many hours and when i'm really exhausted can i begin to get some sleep. but putting this in a broader context, how attached are we really to "reality"? i mean, i like to think i don't have too many attachments to the physical world, whether it be money or possessions or people, or even myself and what i view myself as being and how others see me. i suppose it's easy to rationalise all these things as not really "belonging" to me, but overall, it seems i have a broader attachment to reality, to the ultra-mundane as it were, and my existence within it. so i guess when i try and sleep, i need to die a little, in a metaphorical sense. last night when i started concentrating on breathing, and stopped being consumed by the mental aspects of waking/rem could i begin to transition easier to sleep. i do have fairly poor sleep hygiene, i work up late at night and basically go straight from full blown concentration to trying to sleep, which i suppose is asking for trouble. so in the physical sense i know i need to fix this aspect and sleep should come easier, also i need to exercise more, i'm drastically unfit. but i just thought it was interesting thinking deeper about things. anyway thanks for listening.

[chnt]

multiple aspects of the OP resonate with me also... detachment... i find that extremely hard a lot of the time, it's like i'm chronically living on nervous energy in a state of self-claustrophobic tension and stress... i manage to let go and then a tension will come into my awareness which will start the tension, stress, pain cycle, just let go, just let go

if i let go i will stop breathing, if i let go i will choke, if i let go i will be more stressed, let go, dont let go, let go, dont let go...

still trying to strengthen my mind and change my awareness, i'm confident i will eventually achieve good results, just a matter of finally becoming aware of the deep unconscious traumas and letting them go, releasing them from the mind and the body's fascia.

[gtarman]

It's been years since I've had a good sleeping environment...one that's not in a noisy sharehouse in the noisy city, and years since I haven't been working screwed up hours (like you). Sometimes I'll go away to a place that's really nice and conducive to restful sleep, and the difference just slaps you in the face.

But yeah, I've experienced episodes of dissociation in the past, and I think poor sleep is a part of the picture (even if it's not a huge part for me personally). I don't know if that's what you're talking about though...

[Pat Uri]

Respect y'all! I spend most of my day in mediation - using my breath to control all states of reality.

About time you visited an accredited hypno therapist and learn the power your spirits seek?

[PositiveHAL]

qualia, excercise is essential for a good nights sleep i feel,

wear the body out a bit then you'll be too tired to wanna wake up during those brain wave transitions.

Also try putting a few drops of pure lavender oil on your pillow, i havn't done this for a few years but after a few nights its incredible,

the most intoxicating foggy sleep ever, very drowsy,

as long as you don't mind smelling like you nanas underwear drawer.

and yeah you're probably overthinking the whole thing

[PositiveHAL]

The whole area of sleep research is fascinating.

Considering just how important it is to human health,

seems like still very little is known about it.

Just wait til the corporations cure the need for sleep,

think of how productive the human race will be then...

18 hour work day anyone?

[PositiveHAL]

40 FACTS ABOUT SLEEP YOU PROBABLY DIDN'T KNOW...

(OR WEsorry if this is a bit hard to readRE TOO TIRED TO THINK ABOUT)

sorry if this is a bit hard to read or if its a derail

-The record for the longest period without sleep is 18 days, 21 hours, 40 minutes during a rocking chair marathon. The record holder reported hallucinations, paranoia, blurred vision, slurred speech and memory and concentration lapses.

- It's impossible to tell if someone is really awake without close medical supervision. People can take cat naps with their eyes open without even being aware of it.

- Anything less than five minutes to fall asleep at night means you're sleep deprived. The ideal is between 10 and 15 minutes, meaning you're still tired enough to sleep deeply, but not so exhausted you feel sleepy by day.

- A new baby typically results in 400-750 hours lost sleep for parents in the first year

- One of the best predictors of insomnia later in life is the development of bad habits from having sleep disturbed by young children.

- The continuous brain recordings that led to the discovery of REM (rapid eye-movement) sleep were not done until 1953, partly because the scientists involved were concerned about wasting paper.

- REM sleep occurs in bursts totalling about 2 hours a night, usually beginning about 90 minutes after falling asleep.

- Dreams, once thought to occur only during REM sleep, also occur (but to a lesser extent) in non-REM sleep phases. It's possible there may not be a single moment of our sleep when we are actually dreamless.

- REM dreams are characterised by bizarre plots, but non-REM dreams are repetitive and thought-like, with little imagery - obsessively returning to a suspicion you left your mobile phone somewhere, for example.

- Certain types of eye movements during REM sleep correspond to specific movements in dreams, suggesting at least part of the dreaming process is analagous to watching a film

- No-one knows for sure if other species dream but some do have sleep cycles similar to humans.

- Elephants sleep standing up during non-REM sleep, but lie down for REM sleep.

- Some scientists believe we dream to fix experiences in long-term memory, that is, we dream about things worth remembering. Others reckon we dream about things worth forgetting - to eliminate overlapping memories that would otherwise clog up our brains.

- Dreams may not serve any purpose at all but be merely a meaningless byproduct of two evolutionary adaptations - sleep and consciousness.

- REM sleep may help developing brains mature. Premature babies have 75 per cent REM sleep, 10 per cent more than full-term bubs. Similarly, a newborn kitten puppy rat or hampster experiences only REM sleep, while a newborn guinea pig (which is much more developed at birth) has almost no REM sleep at all.

- Scientists have not been able to explain a 1998 study showing a bright light shone on the backs of human knees can reset the brain's sleep-wake clock.

- British Ministry of Defence researchers have been able to reset soldiers' body clocks so they can go without sleep for up to 36 hrs. Tiny optical fibres embedded in special spectacles project a ring of bright white light (with a spectrum identical to a sunrise) around the edge of soldiers' retinas, fooling them into thinking they have just woken up. The system was first used on US pilots during the bombing of Kosovo.

- Seventeen hours of sustained wakefulness leads to a decrease in performance equivalent to a blood alcohol-level of 0.05%.

- The 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill off Alaska, the Challenger space shuttle disaster and the Chernobyl nuclear accident have all been attributed to human errors in which sleep-deprivation played a role.

- The NRMA estimates fatigue is involved in one in 6 fatal road accidents.

- Exposure to noise at night can suppress immune function even if the sleeper doesn’t wake. Unfamiliar noise, and noise during the first and last two hours of sleep, has the greatest disruptive effect on the sleep cycle.

- The "natural alarm clock" which enables some people to wake up more or less when they want to is caused by a burst of the stress hormone adrenocorticotropin. Researchers say this reflects an unconscious anticipation of the stress of waking up.

- Some sleeping tablets, such as barbiturates suppress REM sleep, which can be harmful over a long period.

- In insomnia following bereavement, sleeping pills can disrupt grieving.

- Tiny luminous rays from a digital alarm clock can be enough to disrupt the sleep cycle even if you do not fully wake. The light turns off a "neural switch" in the brain, causing levels of a key sleep chemical to decline within minutes.

- To drop off we must cool off; body temperature and the brain's sleep-wake cycle are closely linked. That's why hot summer nights can cause a restless sleep. The blood flow mechanism that transfers core body heat to the skin works best between 18 and 30 degrees. But later in life, the comfort zone shrinks to between 23 and 25 degrees - one reason why older people have more sleep disorders.

- A night on the grog will help you get to sleep but it will be a light slumber and you won't dream much.

- After five nights of partial sleep deprivation, three drinks will have the same effect on your body as six would when you've slept enough.

- Humans sleep on average around three hours less than other primates like chimps, rhesus monkeys, squirrel monkeys and baboons, all of whom sleep for 10 hours.

- Ducks at risk of attack by predators are able to balance the need for sleep and survival, keeping one half of the brain awake while the other slips into sleep mode.

- Ten per cent of snorers have sleep apnoea, a disorder which causes sufferers to stop breathing up to 300 times a night and significantly increases the risk of suffering a heart attack or stroke.

- Snoring occurs only in non-REM sleep

- Teenagers need as much sleep as small children (about 10 hrs) while those over 65 need the least of all (about six hours). For the average adult aged 25-55, eight hours is considered optimal

- Some studies suggest women need up to an hour's extra sleep a night compared to men, and not getting it may be one reason women are much more susceptible to depression than men.

- Feeling tired can feel normal after a short time. Those deliberately deprived of sleep for research initially noticed greatly the effects on their alertness, mood and physical performance, but the awareness dropped off after the first few days.

- Diaries from the pre-electric-light-globe Victorian era show adults slept nine to 10 hours a night with periods of rest changing with the seasons in line with sunrise and sunsets.

- Most of what we know about sleep we've learned in the past 25 years.

- As a group, 18 to 24 year-olds deprived of sleep suffer more from impaired performance than older adults.

- Experts say one of the most alluring sleep distractions is the 24-hour accessibility of the internet.

- The extra-hour of sleep received when clocks are put back at the start of daylight in Canada has been found to coincide with a fall in the number of road accidents.

Edited September 30, 2012 by NegativeDave

[qualia]

thanks for the replies. i tried hard to keep this from a "how do i sleep better" thread, there's more than enough threads here already about that. i really just wanted to put into words the "revelation" of sorts i suppose (falling asleep is second only to the dunny for best places to solve the worlds problems ). but yeah, if i switch off and just sit for a period before bed i think i should be ok.

multiple aspects of the OP resonate with me also... detachment... i find that extremely hard a lot of the time, it's like i'm chronically living on nervous energy in a state of self-claustrophobic tension and stress... i manage to let go and then a tension will come into my awareness which will start the tension, stress, pain cycle, just let go, just let go

that's one of the most troubling aspects, the physical response. i can feel really stressed forcing the switch so often, which sends a weird head feeling down through my body to my heart which starts beating stronger, and doesn't really go away. the physical aspect is most disturbing i think.

Just wait til the corporations cure the need for sleep,

and charge us for the "privilege". yeah, can't wait

[Pat Uri]

FAQ's of Pat Uri:- Pat Uri - are you really 99 years old? (signed Insomniac)

Dear Insomniac - no I am not really 99 years old - it is just that I have not slept since 1972, figuring then, with my research, that for every 3 days I stayed awake, I got one day free! - That even if I died at 75, I'd lived to be 90, and research all the time.

Go figure!

[whitewind]

- The continuous brain recordings that led to the discovery of REM (rapid eye-movement) sleep were not done until 1953, partly because the scientists involved were concerned about wasting paper.

Indeed, while all this is soooo interesting, how can we apply this information in a meaningful way, to benefit everyone? Clearly, military and the governments use this information to apply certain stressors in order to trick the body into believing something other than reality, but what is normal for our bodies and our minds has been dramatically lost and can only be refound through scientific method costing millions and using up ridiculous quantities of resources! Left to our own devices, perhaps our bodies would instinctively click back into what nature thinks is best for us, and then we can say "Hey, this is normal! What happens when we make this dude work double shifts overnight? Stress?"

Continual stress, of course, leading to long-term ill health that no-one seems to be able to pinpoint the cause of - GM foods, pollution, money. Or all of the above, perhaps.

We could, of course, look at indigenous tribes living in tune with nature, but it's far more economically useful to tear down their trees and force them to live in filthy slums at the edge of cities, productively looking for work (perhaps they should learn to become lumberjacks? That way they can profit from the removal of their home!). We live so far apart from nature, we don't even know what's good for us any more.

Look at the plethora of diets online, Americans in particular seem to think they have found the Holy Grail of how to tailor your own nutrient levels by popping pills and focussing on particular "superfoods" while completely ignoring the fact that their lifestyles - including sleep patterns - are so unbalanced and unhealthy the super-dooper-diet of the moment can't be more than a quick fix solution designed to massage someones ego and increase the width of their wallet!

We live in a sick society. Sick because we aren't in tune with nature, and so sick we can't even pinpoint the cause of our sickness and so carry on, exaggerating the problems by using the same methods to fix them as we used to get there in the first place.

Poor, poor "intelligent" apes.

[glimpse]

little flash of thought that went through my mind upon reading this thread:

what if sleep is our TRUE energetic REALITY, where we are completely connected to the divine and this physical consciousness shit is just an illusion

isn't sleep sometimes referred to as "the little death"

what if sleeping dmt release (is there one?) breaks down the ego in order to establish this connection

what if the ego takes control again just before waking and throws some random (mostly) disconnected shit together (dreams) in order to help clear any memory of the divine connection established during sleep and thus helps to make the waking reality a little more acceptable

what if i have just become one of those keanu reeves, bill & ted internet memes

[PositiveHAL]

^whoa...not enough sleep there whitewind?

[Pat Uri]

Well as a long experienced senior Queensland driver, that must stay drug free, for this long hauls of road train cattle trucks on the highway, I like to prop a pillow up against my window, and every minute of so, drop into little nano-naps, therefore over all getting a couple of hours sleep all together over the 20hr haul - oh, and post in to forum off my iPad from the dashboard, like now!

Good thing I'm not on drugs though.

[whitewind]

^^ Too much if anything! I think stress enhances the ego, by preventing us from properly connecting with nature, with the universe. When we connect with nature, by working with natural bio-rhythms, we become more relaxed and our sense of self falls away and becomes less important.

[whitewind]

Stress basically acts like a drug, and most of us are constantly stressed so we don't realise that this is, in fact, not natural behaviour. Other species react to stressors, and then, when they are removed, return to a normal, relaxed state. We don't do that. We get addicted to those stressors, and if we get too sick then we use different stressors to try to counterbalance the original stress, sometimes drugs, sometimes TV. This allows us to keep the original stress but keep it under some control.

When you remove all stressors, like in Vipassana, or weekly meditation, or going on holiday, people get withdrawal symptoms and start doing really weird stuff to try and recapture what they believe is a normal state of mind - i.e. stress. But it's not, often it takes a week to let go and totally relax, and then you can, for example, enjoy the rest of your three week break. Then you don't want to go back to work, because you realise that it's shit, but as soon as you are back your addiction kicks in and it all seems normal again. It seems normal, but it's not.

Qualia is addicted to insomnia; we need to find what stressors he uses to fuel that addiction, and counter them. Of course, because he is addicted, he will try other measures to unconsciously keep the unbalanced state that he is addicted to, so he needs to be aware of what he is doing and prevent them. His ego has essentially been molded by the state of addiction and doesn't want to let go, it has control, control through addiction, which is why he is so scared when he starts to relax into sleep.

Does this make more sense?

[goneski]

Do you experience sleep paralysis at all? As this sounds related..

I was having sleeping problems a while ago, and the psych prescribed me periactin.

It seemed to work quite well, and it's very cheap, at least.

Edited September 30, 2012 by SYNeR

[qualia]

Qualia is addicted to insomnia;

i guarantee you he's not.

we need to find what stressors he uses to fuel that addiction, and counter them. Of course, because he is addicted, he will try other measures to unconsciously keep the unbalanced state that he is addicted to, so he needs to be aware of what he is doing and prevent them. His ego has essentially been molded by the state of addiction and doesn't want to let go, it has control, control through addiction, which is why he is so scared when he starts to relax into sleep.

ok, don't take this the wrong way. you have me all wrong. i appreciate you trying to solve what you think are my problems, but this sounds like cheap armchair psychology. way off man.

Edited September 30, 2012 by qualia

[qualia]

Do you experience sleep paralysis at all? As this sounds related..

I was having sleeping problems a while ago, and the psych prescribed me periactin.

It seemed to work quite well, and it's very cheap, at least.

i do, often. but i don't want to take drugs for sleep problems.

[Pat Uri]

ZZZZzzzzzzzz........Zzzzzzzzzzzz.......ZZZZZzzzzzzzz......ZZ- Whooooah! SwervzeS!...OK just outside Miriam Vale! Folks! - Without trucks Australia sleeps. Sleeps...soo sleepy...ZZzzzzz... 38t doing 120km...no drugs....drugssszzzzzz. zzzzzzzzz

[chnt]

i love you patty

[LokStok]

The Dream of the Butterfly

It was a cool evening in ancient China. Chuang Tzu's friend went looking for him at the local inn. He found Chuang Tzu sitting at a table, sipping his drink in a contemplative mood.

"There you are!" Chuang Tzu's friend greeted him. "I thought by now you would be telling everybody another one of your stories. Why so quiet?"

"There is a question on my mind," said Chuang Tzu, "a question about existence."

"I see. Would you like me to leave you alone to your thoughts?"

"No, let me share it with you. Perhaps you can provide me with your perspective."

"My perspective is of little value, but I would be glad to listen." He pulled up a chair.

"I was out for a stroll late in the afternoon," said Chuang Tzu. "I went to one of my favorite spots under a tree. I sat there, thinking about the meaning of life. It was so warm and pleasant that I soon relaxed, dozed off, and drifted into a dream. In my dream, I found myself flying up above the field. I looked behind me and saw that I had wings. They were large and beautiful, and they fluttered rapidly. I had turned into a butterfly! It was such a feeling of freedom and joy, to be so carefree and fly around so lightly in any way I wished. Everything in this dream felt absolutely real in every way. Before long, I forgot that I was ever Chuang Tzu. I was simply the butterfly and nothing else."

"I've had dreams of flying myself, but never as a butterly," Chuang Tzu's friend said. "This dream sounds like a wonderful experience."

"It was, but like all things, it had to end sooner or later. Gradually, I woke up and realized that I was Chuang Tzu after all. This is what puzzles me."

"What is so puzzling about it? You had a nice dream, that's all there is to it."

"What if I am dreaming right now? This conversation I am having with you seems real in every way, but so did my dream. I thought I was Chuang Tzu who had a dream of being a butterfly. What if I am a butterfly who, at this very moment, is dreaming of being Chuang Tzu?"

"Well, I can tell you that you are actually Chuang Tzu, not a butterfly."

Chuang Tzu smiled: "You may simply be part of my dream, no more or less real than anything else. Thus, there is nothing you can do to help me identify the distinction between Chuang Tzu and the butterfly. This, my friend, is the essential question about the transformation of existence."

http://www.taoism.net/living/2007/200703.htm

[whitewind]

i guarantee you he's not.

ok, don't take this the wrong way. you have me all wrong. i appreciate you trying to solve what you think are my problems, but this sounds like cheap armchair psychology. way off man.

 

[bogfrog]

I have experienced several dreams where i have been other people, two that stick out in particular were a dream where i was an bubbly asian girl at a university in america and one dream where i was a tough guy, western movie hero sort of guy who hooned around on a motorbike fighting bad guys. To conciously think and move as another being in some other reality feels reeally strange.

Its certainly a fascinating step outside of your normal reality, so i can relate to the sort of fear that is associated with that change in conciouness that occurs when you realise that you aren't just ..you.

And a big reminder of how little we know about dreaming.. And how much i want to know!

[CβL]

Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou, dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things.

I don't think we can ever know for sure whether or not our waking lives are any more real than our dreams. Maybe even Solipsism has it right.

To answer your questions qualia, I'll give you another question - if you knew you might never wake up again, should that stop you from trusting that you will?

[whitewind]

A lot depends on how realistic your dreams are, Qualia. I went through a stage I imagine was a lot like you are experiencing now, where my dreams were vividly real, and my reality quite shit and stressful; I was also taking psychedelics a lot and I think my brain was having to process too much information, dreams would merge into reality and half the time I wasn't sure which was which, and one night I dreamt that I died, and when I woke up I was relieved that I was awake, and then quickly I would die again, over and over, and when I woke up I was exhausted and wasn't sure I was really, truly awake. It was nasty, I didn't want to sleep at all so I was in an ever-exhausted trap that I didn't know how to break.

Homeopathy was the only thing that worked, oddly enough, and once I slept well once I could start to put into practice techniques of relaxation and visualisation which put me on the course to recovery.

As an aside, Bogfrog, I once dreamt the entire life of someone as if it were myself, and woke up remembering everything that that person had experienced, an entire life that wasn't my own and I had no attachment to. Very interesting.