Pictures of indiscriminate death (Warning: Graphic images)

[TheExplorer]

I've been to the killing fields in Cambodia and it is a very sobering experience. While walking around I felt something under my my feet, and on closer inspection I realised that I was actually walking on rags and human bones. Before going I had heard similar stories, but had stupidly thought that these stories couldn't possibly be true. This, combined with the beautiful and caring nature of the Cambodian people, makes you really think about the value of life.

Perhaps the most depressing thought, however, is that this sort of behaviour still goes on today.

[Marcel]

Indiscriminate is not identical to random. The reason I used that word is that I have always had a certain connotation with 'indiscriminate' as being tragic. While randomness does not hold that same connotation at all. Maybe it's just me?

in·dis·crim·i·nate/ˌ indiˈskrimənit/ Adjective

1. Done at random or without careful judgment: "indiscriminate killing".

2. (of a person) Not using or exercising discrimination.

Furthermore, Marcel, I think you are completely missing the point. The point is to spur some emotion over the senseless death that has gone, and that will come. Maybe a few of us will get angry and hurt enough to do something about it. I know for one, I will be doing something - when I think the integration of my resources and time will result in what I determine to be of maximum benefit to all of life (Lifekind, as I will now coin the term, if it has not already been). So I don't know how you can confuse that, with snuff porn. If it was not obvious, the subtitle was highly sarcastic (is that what confused you?).

Looking at that absolutely colossal tower of bison skulls, sickens me in a new way. And it's not unique. This is occuring right now, with people, animals (not that people aren't animals), and plants (not that animals are more deserving of compassion than plants).

 

I understand your intentions βluntmuffin, and they're certainly valiant and laudable. And yes, these images are powerful... I admit that I may be wrong, but I just get this nagging feeling that a bunch of (largely) left-leaning, anarchist, freedom-fighting, vegan, non-conformists (don't worry; I'm mostly caricaturing myself here), sitting around at their computers, baulking at the horror of murder is somehow empty and impotent.

We see these images, and what now? We feel sick? We stop buying fur? We oppose genocide? Aren't we doing this already? And more germane to this discussion: how does all this change these circumstances? Surely you're not suggesting that simply seeing these atrocities makes us better and more ethically robust? If anything, the internet has taught us that mass exposure to these images makes us more jaded and pathetic.

Perhaps it's a matter of context, then? Perhaps if we all chipped in to print a billboard sized reproduction of the above image of seal slaughter and then we hijacked a highway billboard and pasted it up for every passing dad to be forced to explain to their children, perhaps then a few people would think thoughts they wouldn't have thought. But here, on the SAB forum? In among cactus seed germination tips, "fuck the government" discussions and funny GIF threads?

I'm Polish and a number of my close relatives suffered and died at the hands of both Nazis and Soviets. Those that survived have some strong thoughts that come from some strong memories. Interestingly, it's not blatant disrespect or offensive jokes that sting them worst (they're easy to dismiss), rather, it's false sympathy. Things like the Holocaust Museum (read: “Theme Park”) in Washington DC and Steven Spielberg melodramatically weeping on day-time chat shows send my mum and grandfather into fits of fury. These horrible moments in history need to be remembered, yes, but remembering isn't simply a “NAZIS FUCK OFF” bumper sticker or a pithy discussion at the water cooler. Nor is it really copying some image URLs into a ethnobot "Chill Space" forum.

I hear you asking: It's easy to criticise but what do you propose instead, Marcel?

What do I propose should be done to stop the senseless murder of animals, humans, plants, languages, cultures and ecosystems? I'm ashamed to say that I don't really know. I have nothing. If I knew, I'd be doing it, I guess. I suppose I admire the approach of the ALF and the ELF. Effective or not, those guys are certainly following through on their beliefs. And I dare say that it's more effective than parliamentary politics. And it's probably more effective than trawling the internet for shocking images. And it's definitely more effective than doing nothing....

[Seldom]

Images? You think they're just images? Something you can send to the recycle bin, and your computer nor you are none the wiser?

Then I pity you.

 

Edited July 30, 2011 by humanzee

[tipz]

this thread gives me such a bad vibe....

I mean come on... really ? this may be an a simile, but i think it makes a point : we all know pedophillia and child abuse is wrong on all levels, but i would not agree with images of such to be posted on public forums to raise awareness.

Having the curiosity of all human beings, no matter how hard i tried i could not stop myself from coming in to see what this thread contained, and unfortunately some of these pictures have affected me quite deeply ! I respect most opinions written above and am not here to debate ! These pictures do not change my intent or my values or my ethics.

When humankind as a whole learns to foster love and inter-connectedness these kind of events will diminish, and at risk of sounding utopian, even cease to occur ! re-hashing evil in this way is not the way to move forward.

If you want to change these things ...do we start putting up these photo's in schools around the world, to educate the children of the evils that are out there ? Is that not fostering fear and loathing ? Would it not be better to ( whilst not ignoring or forgetting these events ) nurture love and focus on the beautifull things in life ? Compassion, humility, love, philanthropy e.t.c ?

I am no philosopher nor am i an intellect - this is just an opinion and i dont want to cause further argument or offense ( i am not targeting individuals here ). Just felt i had to say my piece.

Edited July 31, 2011 by tipz

[synchromesh]

There should be a warning at least. I mean, I've seen footage of seals getting pickaxed (Earthlings), but that photo is even worse. And I decided to stop looking at shit like this as well. It just isn't healthy to have too much of this stuff in your system. Well, at least not for me anyway.

[mac]

Images of slaughtered animals, people, insects ( rape & some of the other topics that have been floating around the forum) whatever it may be usually only cause conflict & more bullshit

I thought this forum was centered around botanical & native plants etc.. (not shit stirring or grandstanding personal opinions & Beliefs)

And I couldnt give a fuck about the jewish genocide

On the contrary, I have an intense feeling of sadness about the Kampuchea situation. Keep your assumptions of me to yourself

I'm not going to argue anything about my feelings towards the jewish genocide, I think my stance is clear enough, and it's not likely to change.

 

so whats the difference Psylo

you justify or "couldnt give a fuck about the killing of jews" but "have an intense feeling of sadness to the killing of Cambodians"

Ill happily keep my assumptions to myself if you do the same & keep your troll like opinions, propaganda and shock value bullshit to yourself

Edited July 30, 2011 by mac

[Psylo]

rape & some of the other topics that have been floating around the forum

 

Such fucking double standards here. Commenting time and time again that it's funny to joke about rape is perfectly acceptable. It's CONDONED by the moderators, and anyone who challenges it gets a warn point, while the adamant perpetrator of such hate is off scott-free. However FIVE LITTLE WORDS accompanying a popular photo of WW2 and the crucifixion begins all over again. The most pathetic reality of this bullying is that while it might be said that its so terrible, the WORDS ARE STILL THERE IN POST THREE. So what then is the point of the moderation and warn point? For the record there was nothing else said, just those five words. If such a big fucking bleeding heart punishment by the moderator was honest in its intention, they would have been removed. But no, it wouldn't help the crucifixion posse in it's agenda

It's also amazing that so far the only identified Polish member has maintained a moderate counter-discussion, while the rest of you cunting internet warriors shed great tears and wave your fists in the air alongside your brethren. Fucking pack-dog mentality if ever there was. This clearly isnt about the content.

Was it stated by me at any time that the Jews deserved it ? (well, lets say, did they deserve it back then). No, The words are still there, for all to see. Five little words. Was the photo any more or less shocking that the seal slaughter, the bison skulls or the Cambodia pics ? No, it was a popular photograph of a mass grave.

Is anybody even aware that over five million German Military personnel died during World War 2 ? Were they not people too ? Where are the tears for this side of bloodshed ?

At least I'm honest about my indifference towards a 70 year old moment in time.

[CβL]

My entire point was:

The thing to remember is that although you are not hurting the situation by avoiding fur clothing, you're not helping either. It's somewhat analogous to the African crisis, where you avoid spreading AIDS. You're also not helping the situation with your kind sentiments of feather-weight. If you care, then you will help (money is not help, for the record), if you are not helping - then your care is just as tenuous as your help.

Which has been missed entirely. If it pleases the liches - may as well delete the thread. I'll even pay for buckets and sand so everyone can bury their heads whenever else they need to.

[Foo]

Such fucking double standards here. Commenting time and time again that it's funny to joke about rape is perfectly acceptable. It's CONDONED by the moderators, and anyone who challenges it gets a warn point, while the adamant perpetrator of such hate is off scott-free. However FIVE LITTLE WORDS accompanying a popular photo of WW2 and the crucifixion begins all over again. The most pathetic reality of this bullying is that while it might be said that its so terrible, the WORDS ARE STILL THERE IN POST THREE. So what then is the point of the moderation and warn point? For the record there was nothing else said, just those five words. If such a big fucking bleeding heart punishment by the moderator was honest in its intention, they would have been removed. But no, it wouldn't help the crucifixion posse in it's agenda

It's also amazing that so far the only identified Polish member has maintained a moderate counter-discussion, while the rest of you cunting internet warriors shed great tears and wave your fists in the air alongside your brethren. Fucking pack-dog mentality if ever there was. This clearly isnt about the content.

Was it stated by me at any time that the Jews deserved it ? (well, lets say, did they deserve it back then). No, The words are still there, for all to see. Five little words. Was the photo any more or less shocking that the seal slaughter, the bison skulls or the Cambodia pics ? No, it was a popular photograph of a mass grave.

Is anybody even aware that over five million German Military personnel died during World War 2 ? Were they not people too ? Where are the tears for this side of bloodshed ?

At least I'm honest about my indifference towards a 70 year old moment in time.

 

Psylo get better man.

[mac]

No double standards here that's why i mentioned other threads that have ended up in similar shit fights & debates

Ill happily keep my assumptions to myself if you do the same & keep your troll like opinions, propaganda and shock value bullshit to yourself

so your saying you can have your opinions but i can not ?

double standards much ?

I think i made my point & if it wasn't clear to you my point is this bullshit that's been going on is not needed in a botanical forum

not just one member or one thread but several recently

you may not like my opinion as i didnt like yours so whats the best thing to do Stop The Bullshit Shock value crap or think before you post risky & controversial topics

The caption to the photo you posted was intended to get a reaction, it may not be the reaction you wanted Or was it

i didn't bother to neg your post complain or report it just stated my opinion (you didnt like my opinion as i did not like yours) you tell me what makes my opinion less valid than your own

Edited July 31, 2011 by mac

[ThunderIdeal]

perhaps we could all get off psylo's case a bit. it was in bad taste, he has particular views about israel, let's move on.

reading this thread it was all becoming a bit "wat do?" to me, then i saw tipz' post. i hear your call to arms bluntmuffin but short of deciding which industries we support with our dollar or labour and how we express our views to people we meet, there is not a lot any of us can directly do without overthrowing the government or such and if it happens, it will happen when it happens and no sooner. i think you nailed it tipz. we don't have to sugarcoat anything but we can 'be the change we want to see'.

[incognito]

hang on, i dunno if im misreading things here or wha, but does psylo think what happened in the holocaust was warranted? im giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

[ThunderIdeal]

not quite. it appears that the actions of the state of israel makes him less sympathetic towards jews.

edit: which couldn't "warrant" the holocaust since israel didn't exist.

Edited July 31, 2011 by ThunderIdeal

[Foo]

hang on, i dunno if im misreading things here or wha, but does psylo think what happened in the holocaust was warranted? im giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

 

I kinda got that vibe.

[incognito]

i really figured him for a much more intelligent human being than that. as that is lunacy.

[Seldom]

Such fucking double standards here. Commenting time and time again that it's funny to joke about rape is perfectly acceptable. It's CONDONED by the moderators

while the rest of you cunting internet warriors shed great tears and wave your fists in the air alongside your brethren. Fucking pack-dog mentality if ever there was. This clearly isnt about the content.

psylo bread. why do you say these things. no one is persecuting you.

Edited July 31, 2011 by humanzee

[Psylo]

#35

 

You do realise that you quoted your own statements, and responded to them?

hang on, i dunno if im misreading things here or wha, but does psylo think what happened in the holocaust was warranted?

This is the best response to your question:

it appears that the actions of the state of israel makes him less sympathetic towards jews.

edit: which couldn't "warrant" the holocaust since israel didn't exist.

 

Thank you.

Those five little words weren't intended to bring up a complex discussion about justifying the genocidal shoah, nor was it a slur on the modern-day Zionist movement. And commenting on the six million European jews that died (as opposed to the deceased five million German armed servicemen we hear little of) hardly bears relevance to the state of Israel/the Palestinian territories in present day Middle Eastern politics.

Or does it ? The pointy finger with empassioned cries of Anti-Semite seem to appear all too often whenever there's something even remotely controversial against Jewism. Mel Gibson was pilloried by the Zionist Right after the release of The Passion of the Christ. Hello people, it was a movie about Jesus, for fucks sake. According to many biblical scholars, common belief is that Pontius Pilate ordered Jesus' execution. Pilate, holding title as prefect of Judaea, AKA the Kingdom of Judah, was a puppet for Jewish interests. How could we expect Gibson to avoid historically accepted viewpoints when making a movie about the crucifiction of Jesus ? Why did the Jewish community in this mordern day feel the need to fucking moan about anti-semitism AGAIN ?

There are hundreds of modern-day examples of the Jewish community throwing the barbed fireball of anti-semite accusations where it's unwarranted. I recently broached the subject here Now, why on earth is this shit even rearing it's ugly head in Australia ? Marrickville Council can't choose their goods & services providers based on an ethical judgement ?

Does anyone think that maybe, just maybe, the interest of Jewish people in politics, corporations & media (the holy trinity?!) might be envisioned as a vengeful dominance against the world, for the Holocaust atrocities? Sort of the same way it's believed that molested children often grow up to become molesters themselves ? And how the fuck has it worked out that in our lifetime, US 'Aid' to Israel, the bulk of it in Military expenditure, has been allowed to happen. Does the US assist any other countries with such extravagance ? It should comes as no surprise that in the great American halls of influence (media, movies, politics, big business), people identifying themselves as Jewish is significant. The Israeli position is always a good money-spinner. You could even say it keeps the US economy stimulated.

Am I an anti-semite ? No, but I'm getting sick of the label. Eventually, it will make me one. So they can say "I told you so".

[mac]

You have to admit psylo the caption you used with the image was fairly poor humor & antisemitic at the least.

At first i thought you had had a few drinks & used poor judgement & it was a case of foot in mouth until the other comments

yes i knew i quoted myself ?

 

 

no hard feelings here just my opinion & i call it as i see it

Edited July 31, 2011 by mac

[Psylo]

You have to admit psylo the caption you used with the image was fairly poor humor & antisemitic at the least.

 

Poor taste, I agree.

Did I anticipate such a drama, and a warn point for it ? No.

Was it dripping in antisemitism ? No, it was a quick & quirky caption to accompany a photograph that should have been retained in this thread.

If I had posted a photo of the Italian team in a world cup match, and used the term "salami-munchers", would I be subjected to the same vicious and defamatory statements about making a random, thoughtless caption?

Genocide, Genocide

My Kingdon for a Genocide

Consider this:

60,000 US armed Forces troops died in Vietnam.

250,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died at the hands of Allied interaction in the Vietnam War.

1,000,000 North Vietnamese Military personnel also died.

2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians died.

That's nudging up to almost three million deaths from a war that wasn't justified. Big figures for a small country, half as much as the Holocaust.

Do we hear the Vietnamese community moaning about it, despite having just cause? Wait, there's not many Vietnamese (can I say 'rice munchers'?) in positions of public influence. Unlike our modern day Jewish Influence Royalty, who often hold the grip on the collective purse strings for Joe Q Public.

[Seldom]

i used to think like you when i was about 12.

[Psylo]

i used to think like you when i was about 12.

 

[ThunderIdeal]

you never hear about the kulaks in russia, there isn't a definite figure but it is probably much higher than six million. i don't condone joking about it, but it's true, the jewish holocaust keeps getting dredged up and played like a card. from what marcel says that probably isn't appreciated much by the actual victims.

on the flip side, you are the one who brought it up psylo so maybe you're happy to be having this conversation. i'd recommend dropping it though. why broach very delicate topics if you have one warn point left. i've been a stupid dick here many times and never received a warn point. i don't know how you got the other warn points, but it isn't too late to change your tack.

[Evil Genius]

Alright guys,

first of all, i had no problem with the actual thread. Watertrade and Torsten were absolutely right! Good Posts the both of you and i also liked Bluntmuffins pic! It is a small line between an interesting chill space forum and one that is too tidied up. When we got into the moderating, we moderated everything that could develope into something bad. But WT and me had the impression that this got in the way of some very interesting discussions and thats why we let this thread stay here for example. Its not about the gore and i personally felt sick looking at some of the pics. But the pics are sad truth and i am for full freedom of speech. I agree this particular thread doesnt really match the warm and friendly vibe we are used to have here but i guarantee everyone of you that i will make sure we keep this vibe till i fall from my computerchair one day. We as a team try to run the chill space like a family and from what ive seen during the last months, its working. Torsten as Admin is putting lots of love and work in this too and i think people can sense that. But there will always be difficult topics in chill space that may be offending to some members. I understand that and i dont like some threads myself. But we want the chill space to be a very interesting forum that is not boring and reaching that goal is not possible without bringing up some hot topics from time to time.

Now comes the BUT! BUT i dont accept anything that has to do with the hatred that comes from the asshole of the internet, a famous imageboard that is mostly known for gore, porn and racism. This Attitude just doesnt fit in here. And i know these jokes very well and i hate em so much because they are poison for young minds.

Psylo, your post was a disgrace for this board. At first, i didnt want to give you a warning point because i hate to hand em out. I set your posts invisible, left the house but when i started thinking about it, i had to go back to give you the warning point because you simply deserved it. Actually you deserved two, because the second post was also racist. I dont know what moderator gave you the second point but i have no doubts it was justified.

I really try to give you a fair chance! I really do because i know from our first conversations that you actually care. I really didnt enjoy giving you the point but can you imagine what the rest of our members would have thought about me if i would have let that one post of yours slip through? And our moderating Team? Torsten would have thought i must be high on Sauerkraut all day. Because honestly, that post was just pure hatred. Im not sure why you think the way you do but i really believe there must have been some very bad things happening in your life to make you think like that. But thats none of my business.

And to answer some of your questions: Out of my family, at least seven people died during the war. All four brothers of my grandmother died and others died too. It was their fault because they were too stupid to see through the propaganda of the nazis. But my family paid in blood for that evil war and i will make sure others wont fall for this crap ever again. Personally, i dont give a shit about jews, christians or any other religion because i´m an convinced atheist and i think its ridiculous that people believe in gods And/or Easterbunnies. But i DO care about people. And about their right to live and their right not be made fun of after their terrible death in a mass grave. And your post basically took a shit on that right. And as long as im here, i wont accept that. I´d be happy if you´d get your act together and try to get along with the others here. I promise i wont treat you unfairly in any way. In fact, you will be treated just like anyone else. I wont mobb you but you wont get special treatment either. End of story. Behave and we will have no problems.

You can go on with the thread now but anyone make sure to spend one second thinking about the fact that the pictures show real people who once lived, loved and had families which cried bitter tears when they lost em. All those people had a name! Treat em with the respect they deserve! Thats all i ask of you in this thread! And i know that the most of you were handling this difficult topic very respectfully right from the start! bye Eg

Edited July 31, 2011 by Evil Genius

[Psylo]

Watertrade and Torsten were absolutely right!

 

Of course they were, EG !

Now comes the BUT! BUT i dont accept anything that has to do with the hatred that comes from the asshole of the internet, a famous imageboard that is mostly known for gore, porn and racism. This Attitude just doesnt fit in here. And i know these jokes very well and i hate em so much because they are poison for young minds.

 

I didn't choose to put this in any specific subforum. So don't blame me for sullying a section of this board.

You can go on with the thread now but anyone make sure to spend one second thinking about the fact that the pictures show real people who once lived, loved and had families which cried bitter tears when they lost em. All those people had a name! Treat em with the respect they deserve!

 

Yes. And god bless the Cambodian orphans, children & grandchildren of the skulls that you allow to remain on this thread without question. No semites in Asia.

[Psylo]

The Cambodian images are far more confronting, yet they remain on the thread. You can't pick & choose what's deemed to be disgraceful if you want to be an objective humanist. There's many more head-counts in post #2's pictures, but I'm assuming there's no Cambodian moderators here, so the images seem less confronting. We do need to remember that, unlike the WW2 genocide, the KR/Pol Pot movement was in our own, or our parents, lifetime. That probably covers 99% of members here. But a 70 year old image with a little teensy comment creates a furor (please don't confuse that word for Führer), which was in our great grandparent's time, if you're lucky enough to be related and even met them.