I don'tknow how to put into words

[occidentalis]

Why can't we just call it what it most probably is: you weren't high on life at all, rather you were high on the after-effects of a massive dose of serotonergic drugs.

I would take what faustus said one step further. The positive effects derived from a positive experience do not mean shit simply for translating into a good feeling for a few days after or the ability to feed the ducks where normally you couldn't: rather you need to be able to rationalise what you have supposedly learnt and put it to good use in your day to day life. Why exactly do you think you feel so good right now Hunab?

More often than not when I have previously seen people reporting trips like this they end up crashing pretty hard from the psychedelic peak within a year. i.e. you have reached the point of big red flag despite how good it feels. The forum is littered with such examples of people who found it very easy to take high doses of something, "talk the talk" with the right terminology and keep up their "shamanic adventure" for a while, but very hard to rationalise these experiences into anything lasting or useful in their lives, often to their ultimate detriment on a much larger scale than the supposed benefits they derived from their cumulative experiences.

Apo might sound like a bit of an asshole in this post but I think he is actually expressing genuine concern and care for Hunab.

And I would like to reiterate what he said.

At the beginning of this year I experienced an unintentional overdose of a rare psychedelic. I got through the experience (with some distress) and then felt great for a week or two. After a while I began to get depressed and I have just emerged from the worst depressive period of my life. I feel like things are now getting better but it has literally been 4 months of being in a bad bad place with almost zero self esteem and constant suicidal ideation.

There has been a lot of other stuff going on in my life with my family and relationships etc which have contributed, but Hunab, please be on guard over the next few months because the stress of a traumatic psychedelic experience may take some time to manifest itself.

[incognito]

how much of this can u soldely attribute to the drug? and how much do u attribute to your life circumstances????

life has its ups and downs..its called life..and being human.

people experience shit go times throughout life without using any substances at all.

i think the insight Hunab has gained and his will to give away the benzos signifies that he has integrated some very positive changes from his experience.

as many bad experiences from high doses there have been some permanant life changing effects which apo seems to have turned a blind eye to.

i.e a love and affinity with nature, giving up destructive habits i.e heavy smoking and drinking.

[triskele]

Yesterday was hell I had to look after my daughter while my wife was at work and it was extremly difficult to cook and clean and change her nappies and help her play and watch her fav DVD's. We finally fell asleep together and that was good.I went and picked up my partner and came home and promptly went to bed very worn out and teary.

H.

Hi Hunab,

Sounds like you had a really life-changing experience, and I am all for expanding consciousness! However, your above description of the aftereffects of your trip, and how you were almost unable to care for your daughter, really concern me.

I recently broke up with my fiance of 3 years, and it strikes me how similar you both sound. I saw him, many times (at least weekly, if not more frequently), have 'profound' and 'mystical' experiences on shrooms, similar to the things you have described...yet when he had to look after his daughter on weekends he was sometimes a total zombie due to the afftereffects of his trips. I could see how terribly this affected her, and I suspect her self-confidence has suffered as a result of feeling neglected during these times. Whilst he loves his daughter more than anything in the world (and I'm sure you do too!), actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter what kind of entities we may be able to get in touch with....at the end of the day, if this affects your loved ones in negative ways, who cares? Please think about your priorities.

Psychoactives are keys to different worlds and different understandings, but just because we may be able to open those doors, doesn't mean we always should, in all circumstances! Experiencing whatever lies 'beyond' us is pointless if it it doesn't somehow make our daily lives better. I have seen too many people wax lyrical about their experiences on psychoactives, but 9 times out of ten, these peoples' lives are a mess! I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't take such substances - in fact, I believe at times they can be incredible healing tools - but we should look very carefully at the outcomes of taking them, and weigh up the cost/benefit to our lives and those who we care for, especially our children.

[MORG]

I have seen too many people wax lyrical about their experiences on psychoactives, but 9 times out of ten, these peoples' lives are a mess! I'm certainly not saying that we shouldn't take such substances - in fact, I believe at times they can be incredible healing tools - but we should look very carefully at the outcomes of taking them, and weigh up the cost/benefit to our lives and those who we care for, especially our children.

Ok, ok. So there are comments now coming out of the woodwork that claim the entheogenic path is littered with wounded psychedelic warriors. Why then do we (The Corroboree) always have such a consensus on ultra-liberal pro-legalisation approaches, the benefits of alkaloid X for 'healing', and seeking and welcoming the messages and lessons learned while under the influence seriously and reverently?

If such a large proportion of people doing psychedelics are either fucked up or fucking themselves up in some way then can't we be a little more honest with ourselves? Instead of blind-endorsement and glorification perhaps there should be more discussion of those who slip through the cracks and don't come back to tell us about it.

We've got a very biased sample on this here forum.

We agree online that these substances can be used intelligently, creatively, productively, responsibly but the conversations about the breakdown of this approach seem to happen more frequently behind the scenes.

[faustus]

If such a large proportion of people doing psychedelics are either fucked up or fucking themselves up in some way then can't we be a little more honest with ourselves? Instead of blind-endorsement and glorification perhaps there should be more discussion of those who slip through the cracks and don't come back to tell us about it.

i did a poll a while back because this was my theory -- that people on this forum have some sort of psychic wound that they're trying to mask or heal with hallucinogen use. but as the poll results show, this might not be the case. (n = 52: GAD = generalised anxiety; SAD = social anxiety; substance = substance abuse as medically diagnosed; substance, all = medically diagnosed and self-diagnosed)

then again, maybe all the fucked up ones were too depressed to participate.

this my take on things: many people here are searching for something, and they've convinced themselves that they've found it or are going to find it through the use of hallucinogens. but from my observation of friends, all that ensues is some vague notion of spiritual enlightenment that's quickly forgotten once the drug has worn off. i've seen people grow from the use of hallucinogens in an honest and genuine way. but seriously, do you really need to use psychedelics for spiritual reasons more than 5 times a year? once a year?

a part of me thinks that using psychedelics purely for fun is a healthier approach than using it for reasons of self-growth.

i think ram dass should be a role model to us: once you get the message from psychedelics you should hang up the phone... for a while at least.

Edited May 13, 2009 by faustus

[coin]

i think the insight Hunab has gained and his will to give away the benzos signifies that he has integrated some very positive changes from his experience.

as many bad experiences from high doses there have been some permanant life changing effects which apo seems to have turned a blind eye to.

i.e a love and affinity with nature, giving up destructive habits i.e heavy smoking and drinking.

when you say bad experiences from high doses, and the positive changes they can bring eventually...isn't it true that many forms of trauma may have this effect? a friend or someone close in the family suddenly dying unexpectedly, etc. can radically change your perspective, your sense of self, and your locus of being. isn't it common to hear "why did i have to wait for something like this to happen to makes these changes?"

it sometimes sounds like some people, at some level, intentionally bring trauma and assault upon their psyche via 'psychdelics,' then when perhaps "thank god it's over," they have a new appreciation for life. or the assault is intended to just smash 'it' all apart...will it reassemble within a few weeks or months?

if a trip is filled with hours of depression and crying like a child...is it really catharsis? were things really dredged up, worked through & resolved (or the beginnings of resolution), or was it simply an assault on the mind & senses with a whole heap of overwhelming confusion and choiceless subjection to the dreck of the subconconcious. if there's no resolution, then this pain may just be held, experienced, and expressed again & again. i worry that those sort of experiences may cause further disturbance to the subsconscious mind.

in meditative practice when these things (subconscious content) inevitably come up, strong concentration and an ability to witness without getting entangled/identifying with them, is necessary for untying the knots/resolving blockages, which requires a lot of practice. without the strong concentration and equanimity, you just roll with the content again, identifying with it (it only hurts if it's "my pain") which feeds it & keeps it alive and strong.

some trips give strong concentration and the ego loss can provide detatchment, so a similar process can take place...for some people this seems to arise randomly and spontaneously, while others go in with intention (but hopefully without expectation). but other times the mind rules rather than the observer, and i doubt if this is helpful. though it may be very entertaining... entertaining one trip, horrific the next, depending on what's coming through.

people that are really overly intrigued with psychedelics, i believe often have a very strong attachment to the phenomena...the lightshow..the scintillation & sense of fascination. the attachment to 'headfuck' can come through the joy of freedom from the frustration of perceived enforced restraints & mundanity of everyday life/consciousness. attachment to the phenomena and content, in my opinion, will never take you very far. this is equally true for many meditation practitioners.

it seems like maybe there's also a phenomena with psychedelics, of perceived insight...a neurophysiological "light bulb" phenomena that can be triggered by something bizarre/obscure that is emblazened with an overwhelming sense of meaning & significance...yet it doesn't carry through, and sometimes, is not even remembered. is this some sort of "illusion of insight"?

Edited May 13, 2009 by coin

[triskele]

We agree online that these substances can be used intelligently, creatively, productively, responsibly but the conversations about the breakdown of this approach seem to happen more frequently behind the scenes.

Yes. I think that in and of themselves, psychoactives are neither healing nor harmful. And whilst some people are gifted with the constitution or ability to utilise their more benficial aspects, others are not. Whilst mushrooms may indeed facilitate healing for some, for others they may precipitate nothing of the kind, and leave people with deep psychological wounds, and an inability to connect with ordinary society. I saw this happen to my previously grounded and level-headed ex-fiance. Ironically, it is often those people who are most obviously damaged by substances that will most vehemently advocate their 'spiritual' and 'healing' aspects.

I think the test should always be: are users bringing back benefit into their daily lives from their trips, or are they not? If they are, then continue partaking. If not, then I can't see the point. We are human, and we are designed to live, for the most part, in consensual reality. There is nothing 'heroic' about taking huge doses of substances that remove us from our ordinary nature, unless we can bring something back that is beneficial. If we can, then bravo! But if not...well, as MORG suggests, we need to provide a balanced portrayal of both sides of the coin.

[ThunderIdeal]

FAUSTUS

i doubt very many SAB'ers would consider my frequency of use 'abusive' but i must ask, once you get what message? i agree with you if it's that simple but what message?

i've had a few messages that i could consider answers to certain cosmic mysteries, and posted some of them here, but i don't know if they were 'the message'.

your opinion is always valuable faustus but this one needs further explanation, my post was a big list of questions originally.

HUNAB

don't take offense at this because i'm talking about myself as much as you, but maybe you are a human of the "head in the clouds" variety, which means from a chakra point of view, your energy is all stuck in your upper chakras but you have seven given by god. high dose lucy gave me a clear belief that all seven are godly and all are indispensable, then i had a vision of things with whispy ghost tails and swolen heads and they were stuck in a major rut, these beings, because they were forsaking two thirds of creation. it's a bit contradictory with the idea of forsaking maya and worldly attachments, but being grounded isn't the same thing as being attached. light up those chakras and explore this multi-faceted mystery in every moment, with all of your faculties, not just the cerebral

Edited May 13, 2009 by ThunderIdeal

[triskele]

people that are really overly intrigued with psychedelics, i believe often have a very strong attachment to the phenomena...the lightshow..the scintillation & sense of fascination. the attachment to 'headfuck' can come through the joy of freedom from the frustration of perceived enforced restraints & mundanity of everyday life/consciousness. attachment to the phenomena and content, in my opinion, will never take you very far. this is equally true for many meditation practitioners.

it seems like maybe there's also a phenomena with psychedelics, of perceived insight...a neurophysiological "light bulb" phenomena that can be triggered by something bizarre/obscure that is emblazened with an overwhelming sense of meaning & significance...yet it doesn't carry through, and sometimes, is not even remembered. is this some sort of "illusion of insight"?

Well put! Your reference to the "illusion of insight" is something I've thought about a lot over the years.

I think that while genuine insight frequently occurs during psychedelic journeys, users too often get so caught up in the means to the end of that insight (that is, the use of psychedelics).

They idolise the substance, when they should be focussing on the lessons it has taught them (lessons, mind you, that one can often learn in other ways, without the use of psychedelics).

[Chiral]

Afternoon chaps...just got in from a day out bush walking and read all these posts...geeze... seems I've created a stir...one thing that I have to ask though and it's been on my mind all day whilst out walking is...If I had made this very same post and experienced the very same phenomenon with a standard dose of say 3gms....would the reactions to my behavior have caused such controversy...?

Is it the dose that concerns people or something else..concern for my welfare is ...well it's warming and Apo I appreciate your concern but I'm a big boy and have made many mistakes in life and will make many more... but anyone who knows me personally knows that I'm a pretty grounded person who puts his wife and child first always....I don't abuse psychedelics like I used to when single and traveling around the world...I plan my voyages and space them apart and always make sure there is as minimal impact on my family....consider the office worker who gets shitfaced at the pub after work every Friday and has a hangover every Saturday morning and his kids wanna play but he can't be bothered cause he feels like shit and just wants to watch the footy and lay around all day....that to me is just as selfish is it not.

Hi Hunab,

Sounds like you had a really life-changing experience, and I am all for expanding consciousness! However, your above description of the aftereffects of your trip, and how you were almost unable to care for your daughter, really concern me.

You have no idea how much I love my little girl and wife and my wife is fine with what I do because I do not hide anything ever from her...I think that's why she is so cool with what I like doing because I always tell her and never do things secretly or lie to her...the next morning after my experience I told her all about it in bits and pieces and let her read this thread so she can see that what I do is my way of exploring my inner conscious and a way of healing...she said that if you can find ways naturally to help you then more power to you...seems you doing a better job than the doctors you have been seeing...I had to laugh at that one.

I admit I had a pretty rough ride the other night but it was so worth it and I have come out the other side a different person in so many ways...subtle ways but none the less they are positive.

I have also wondered about double standards around here when clearly this is an Ethnobotanical site and the most interest lies around plants and their healing qualities....asking me to stop full stop makes no sense to me and I agree that its the people that don't come back here or disappear that are falling through the cracks that are the ones we should probably be worrying about...difficult as that is to monitor I think that's closer to the mark.

Just one more thing before I go cook up some lactarius is that myself and another SAB member and his friend had the most beautiful amazing day out in the bush today...I really have a new perspective on life for now ...the fungus was everywhere and we all had a great time and thanked the plant spirits for once again providing us with a rich and wonderful bounty...photo's to come.

Edited May 13, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[triskele]

Hey Hunab,

I'm sorry if anything I said offended you. Of course you love your little girl to bits - every father would!

If your wife is really ok with it all, then that's great. Perhaps I was imputing too much of my own recent situation onto yours....

But damn, the way you write about your experiences sounds so uncannily similar to the way my ex used to speak about his shroom use, it just set alarm bells ringing for me. I remember being really supportive of my ex's use at first, as he had convinced me it was curing his depression, but over time things just went too far into la-la land, he started displaying delusions of grandeur and speaking as though he were a mushroom shaman 24/7, and he seemed to believe that the shrooms could cure anything. Yet I didn't see any real benefits in his life - he was still a functioning alcoholic, still on his depression meds and not really appearing any more motivated or less anxious than previously.

Obviously, your psychological makeup and personal circumstances are unique to you, and I hope you have a completely different experience to my ex, and that whatever insights came to you during that trip stay with you and make you a better person. Best of luck with your journey and your family

[Chiral]

Hey Hunab,

I'm sorry if anything I said offended you. Of course you love your little girl to bits - every father would!

If your wife is really ok with it all, then that's great. Perhaps I was imputing too much of my own recent situation onto yours....

But damn, the way you write about your experiences sounds so uncannily similar to the way my ex used to speak about his shroom use, it just set alarm bells ringing for me. I remember being really supportive of my ex's use at first, as he had convinced me it was curing his depression, but over time things just went too far into la-la land, he started displaying delusions of grandeur and speaking as though he were a mushroom shaman 24/7, and he seemed to believe that the shrooms could cure anything. Yet I didn't see any real benefits in his life - he was still a functioning alcoholic, still on his depression meds and not really appearing any more motivated or less anxious than previously.

Obviously, your psychological makeup and personal circumstances are unique to you, and I hope you have a completely different experience to my ex, and that whatever insights came to you during that trip stay with you and make you a better person. Best of luck with your journey and your family

It's all good I wasn't offended I just want to make it clear that I don't mess with my family and our stability and I have my priorities in place...everyone's entitled to a little fun and relaxation every so often ...mine happens to be journeying in the safety of my own studio from time to time...

H.

[incognito]

u know they aint subs....right? tell me ur shroom ID skills are better than ur fish ID skills yeah?

[Chiral]

Whats a sub...?..... ...nah these are breamus fungus Australis

[santiago]

I'll prove that something exists right after you prove that nothing exists

.

Not a problem, its easy to prove that something exists because i just posted something, now its up to somebody to disprove that nothing exists.

[Horus]

Gooday Hunab,

I just read this thread,its been a few months since I visited this site.

I am glad you had a big mental adventure,and got to that place you have been striving for, for so long.

I hope you dont mind me clarifying to the folks here, that I have met Hunab,who is as open and honest in the flesh as he is on this forum.

He absolutely idolizes his lovely daughter and she lives in a safe and loving household.

He is very educated and experienced in psychedelics.

The thing that strikes a chord to me in the trip report is not so much the "telepathy"or dosage stuff, but the emotional stuff.

When I have gone right out there,there is always an emotional stage of tears and those life recall memories.

Yes it is often intertwined with the emotion over the beauty and wonder of the "unseen world".

When they talk of psychedelics being used as a healing agent, it is this opportunity to examine and resolve that deep psychological stuff,

and when you are at that point it can be a perfect healing opportunity.

The crying is an emotional purge and you should let it out.

Spew out all the negative stuff with it and resolve to be a better ,wiser person at the end of the trip.

You said that you wrote to your son during your experience,did you send the e-mail?

Did it make sense the next day?

Was everything OK?

I sincerely hope you can now resolve those issues you have in your past.

Anyhow,good to see you are still giving this forum some juicy topics.

And I am a bit jealous of your having all those lovelies for yourself.

Cheers mate,

Col.

[holymountain]

just quickly...

if hunab was genuinly feeling high on life, if he had genuinly experienced some sort of rebirth where he felt he could now overcome his problems and he felt he could now be the man he needs to be....how much would it suck if everyone then started telling you that you were wrong and how you were bound to get depressed and fuck up and how it's inevitable that you will fail no matter how good you feel?

talk about taking the wind out of someone's sails.

[Chiral]

Gooday Hunab,

I just read this thread,its been a few months since I visited this site.

I am glad you had a big mental adventure,and got to that place you have been striving for, for so long.

Yeah it's like I have been searching for these other dimensions etc but you never really know what they are or where they are and I think thats the interesting part of journeying.

I hope you dont mind me clarifying to the folks here, that I have met Hunab,who is as open and honest in the flesh as he is on this forum.

He absolutely idolizes his lovely daughter and she lives in a safe and loving household.

He is very educated and experienced in psychedelics.

thanks and the educated part is ongoing but yeah I love my family to bits.

The thing that strikes a chord to me in the trip report is not so much the "telepathy"or dosage stuff, but the emotional stuff.

When I have gone right out there,there is always an emotional stage of tears and those life recall memories.

Yes it is often intertwined with the emotion over the beauty and wonder of the "unseen world".

I have to say that this is the first time I have been reduced to tears though...maybe in the past I just haven't travelled hard enough...kept falling short or something....but that emotional outlay was exhausting but I feel is where I was cleansed somewhat.

When they talk of psychedelics being used as a healing agent, it is this opportunity to examine and resolve that deep psychological stuff,

and when you are at that point it can be a perfect healing opportunity.

The crying is an emotional purge and you should let it out.

Spew out all the negative stuff with it and resolve to be a better ,wiser person at the end of the trip.

Man I couldn't have put it better myself you are right on the money there...to me it was no different to someones life changing Aya session and purging to heal and clean out all the crap....seriously you have hit the nail on the head....it's what I've always needed and didn't know it ...just up the dose because I have hugely high tolerances to psychedelics... bammo I found my space and crashed and burned and cried and cleaned out the mind..total reboot.

You said that you wrote to your son during your experience,did you send the e-mail?

Did it make sense the next day?

Was everything OK?

Yeah I re read the e-mail the next day and I still meant what I wrote and it was all good...it was basically asking him to forgive me for being a failure as his father and that I love him always no matter what etc...was a very emotional letter but I felt it necessary at the time and I believe it was part of the purge.

I sincerely hope you can now resolve those issues you have in your past.

Anyhow,good to see you are still giving this forum some juicy topics.

And I am a bit jealous of your having all those lovelies for yourself.

Cheers mate,

Col.

Hahah no probs Col good to see you still lurking around the boards...us old boys gotta keep these young guns in check sometimes huh...

Edited May 14, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[Chiral]

just quickly...

if hunab was genuinly feeling high on life, if he had genuinly experienced some sort of rebirth where he felt he could now overcome his problems and he felt he could now be the man he needs to be....how much would it suck if everyone then started telling you that you were wrong and how you were bound to get depressed and fuck up and how it's inevitable that you will fail no matter how good you feel?

talk about taking the wind out of someone's sails.

Yeah people telling me to do this and stop that...while all the while they are partaking in their own pleasures...just because I chose to give so much of myself publicly on a Ethobotany forum, I have copped some flak....but it's all good I know where I am now.... and my sails are flapping hard in the winds man.

Spent a lot of time talking to the plant spirits yesterday and they where happy we where taking the time to praise the plants and thank them for their fruits...they just kept giving and giving yesterday and was very fulfilling and lovely adventure.

hail the plants.

H.

[apothecary]

Ok, ok. So there are comments now coming out of the woodwork that claim the entheogenic path is littered with wounded psychedelic warriors. Why then do we (The Corroboree) always have such a consensus on ultra-liberal pro-legalisation approaches, the benefits of alkaloid X for 'healing', and seeking and welcoming the messages and lessons learned while under the influence seriously and reverently?

If such a large proportion of people doing psychedelics are either fucked up or fucking themselves up in some way then can't we be a little more honest with ourselves? Instead of blind-endorsement and glorification perhaps there should be more discussion of those who slip through the cracks and don't come back to tell us about it.

We've got a very biased sample on this here forum.

I thought the consensus was more along the lines of more information is required if people are going to have any hope of using these compounds in a safe manner through which healing is one of the many possible opportunities (both good and bad) available to the user. Information which is supposed to be presented in a format which can stand up to some form of scientific rigor as well as provide didactic, correct, safe guidelines for the use of said compounds.

Blind endorsement and glorification is what you can see, I won't deny, but you can also not deny there are posters on this forum who are only trying to keep others informed. Plenty of people who started out as a username and avatar and who I now consider close friends have "slipped through the cracks" so to speak, and this has made me extremely sad on a deeply personal level (not to mention the insinuation that this information is being kept under wraps).

But obviously the conversations about the breakdown of this approach happens frequently behind the scenes when attempts at warning users of this sort of problem online (i.e. major function of this forum) will get shouted down for being an asshole or a censor or paranoid (of course I'm lumping all the recent insults aimed at me which make me want to bother less and less with saying anything at all on here).

Most of the people who I identify as having "crashed" don't even acknowledge it themselves, you have to talk to their friends and relatives (more often they talk to you) or just look at their life circumstances!

We agree online that these substances can be used intelligently, creatively, productively, responsibly but the conversations about the breakdown of this approach seem to happen more frequently behind the scenes.

Err I'm sorry I must have missed the bit where we all agreed a 29 gram dose of NSW subs was intelligent, creative, productive or responsible?

incognito, not really sure why you are calling me self righteous and accusing me of passing judgement on Hunab? I am only going by what he has told us previously and I only provided my opinion (which was clearly a mistake on my part). Telling Hunab in the first and second page of this thread that he was asking for a psychotic breakdown and similar comments from you is fine though. Claiming I've turned a blind eye some set of perceived "blanket benefits" provided by psychedelics, when you've known me personally for several years now and know what my opinion really is, I don't even know what to say about that.

Hunab, let me try and reduce what I was saying to you down to a few core key lines.

Firstly, as mentioned you seem unable to rationalise why it is you feel so good now, yet seem very content to just go with it anyway. This to me, does not seem like the healthy foundation for a "reboot". Having witnessed many such "reboots" in a few short years (and experiencing a couple myself), my perception is that generally it isn't what it seems and when it is you certainly don't notice until much later on. I wonder why in all your years of psychedelic experience and high tolerance dosing which seems to have left some members here unconcerned with your physical safety, you have never had such an epiphany previously, until you encountered this forum?

Second your extremely defensive/denial nature to the prospect that you should give up all drugs for a period of re-evaluation of your life and it's goals does not strike me as someone who has just gone through an experience which will never leave them the same again. My opinion only, before I get accused of being a judgemental-putdowning-singleouting-asshole again. People here have already lauded you for your abandonement of synthetics and all the positive things you've integrated from your experience. Have you actually stopped the daily codeine dosing you made a desperate thread about, when you were describing the feelings of anxiety and end-of-tether depression, which had us all so concerned about your wellbeing? Funny that you weren't feeling singled out then? Maybe I missed a few threads or something but from my reading since that most concerning thread, your drug consumption has gone up, not down. To that end, I'd really like to know what positives you have taken away from this experience (aside from a general feeling of well-being)?

Lastly to the idea that I am giving advice I would not take myself: simply incorrect.

To holymountain, you have taken far more from my post that my own words. To continue my analogy: the idea of going off a cliff is not inevitable, the point of a big red flag is to steer you away from the cliff before the event occurs. However, once you are over the cliff (because you chose to ignore the flag) gravity tends to make hitting the ground inevitable, whether you like it or not. The choice is not mine to make, nor do I want to infringe on that choice once it's made. If you can ignore the advice and prove me wrong I will still be happy. Do you think I would be happy about being right in this case?

As an aside which really has nothing to do with this topic (or maybe it does), some of the things I've witnessed on this forum and had said to me over the last few days has left me feeling pretty disillusioned. My mind has always been in two parts on this issue, one is that I should just STFU, do my own thing and wait for the inevitable time bomb based on poor advice and rash behaviour to blow up. The other says I should stay about and try to do my best in providing information where there is none, and more importantly correcting incorrect information. I have been happy to contribute as long as I felt my contributions held some value to the other users of this forum. Not really feeling that way any more, it seems the current group of "active users" is pretty happy with the level of informational integrity which is going around at the moment, but I'm the one who's not (know I'm not the only one, but the others have already stopped posting here). So I will probably stop contributing.

[Chiral]

I thought the consensus was more along the lines of more information is required if people are going to have any hope of using these compounds in a safe manner through which healing is one of the many possible opportunities (both good and bad) available to the user. Information which is supposed to be presented in a format which can stand up to some form of scientific rigor as well as provide didactic, correct, safe guidelines for the use of said compounds.

Blind endorsement and glorification is what you can see, I won't deny, but you can also not deny there are posters on this forum who are only trying to keep others informed. Plenty of people who started out as a username and avatar and who I now consider close friends have "slipped through the cracks" so to speak, and this has made me extremely sad on a deeply personal level (not to mention the insinuation that this information is being kept under wraps).

People fall through many cracks for many varying reasons in life not just drug use...how sure can you be it's the use of substances that has led to their demise...?...contributing factors of work, relationships, depression, debt, loneliness, self loathing, sexual abuse, the loss of a loved one etc etc...could all have been contributing factors...I don't know ...can you clarify with certainty what and why these friends of yours have what you slipped through the cracks..? What does slipping through the cracks actually mean in your opinion..?

But obviously the conversations about the breakdown of this approach happens frequently behind the scenes when attempts at warning users of this sort of problem online (i.e. major function of this forum) will get shouted down for being an asshole or a censor or paranoid (of course I'm lumping all the recent insults aimed at me which make me want to bother less and less with saying anything at all on here).

I don't see anyone shouting you down ...what I see is someone making acute judgments based on a relatively small amount of data accumulated only through the witnessing of some friends. It does come across as being slightly judgmental and for want of better words .."you know better than we do so take my advice or else" It is also your way of saying look hey be careful because you know I have seen this before and sometimes it has adverse affects...what about the ones that didn't slip through the cracks...why are they not mentioned...?

Most of the people who I identify as having "crashed" don't even acknowledge it themselves, you have to talk to their friends and relatives (more often they talk to you) or just look at their life circumstances!

I agree to some extent that some people you just can't help...I have over a dozen friends who I grew up with who are so fucking stupid that they think they are the centre of the universe...they smoke 30-40 cones a day and drink spirits every day and play playstation and abuse their girlfriends all their lives...they have never left their home town and are so completly fucked up through weed that I now believ they are terminally ill and will suffer serious mental disorders in the not to distant future...but they will not listen period.

Err I'm sorry I must have missed the bit where we all agreed a 29 gram dose of NSW subs was intelligent, creative, productive or responsible?

I have already asked this question in this thread and no one replied...what if my dose was 3 grams and I had the same profound experience...would this thread have gotten any more than a couple of replies or is it the dose level that is so controversial...it was an experiment it's not something that has ever been attempted before but I needed to know as I'm extremely interested in passing on my experiences and giving others some data to go on...it somewhat constitutes harm minimisation too in my opinion.

incognito, not really sure why you are calling me self righteous and accusing me of passing judgement on Hunab? I am only going by what he has told us previously and I only provided my opinion (which was clearly a mistake on my part). Telling Hunab in the first and second page of this thread that he was asking for a psychotic breakdown and similar comments from you is fine though. Claiming I've turned a blind eye some set of perceived "blanket benefits" provided by psychedelics, when you've known me personally for several years now and know what my opinion really is, I don't even know what to say about that.

I think he was speaking for many of us when we read your post..it had a feel of self righteousness...it's like well who are you to tell people what to do..it came across as though you where offering some sort of deathly ultimatum...perhaps Jono can add something more to that issue.

Hunab, let me try and reduce what I was saying to you down to a few core key lines.

Firstly, as mentioned you seem unable to rationalise why it is you feel so good now,

I can't rationalise it because I don't know enough about neuro science to explain it to you, and what am I supposed to do but go with it...I don't understand...all I can say is I feel level...I have no ups and downs ...I seem constantly happy in a very mild form...like a small smile on my face all the time...seems now that nothing bothers me...not even doing mindless chores or cleaning up someone else's mess etc..before I'd whinge and grumble now I just do it and am mindful of it and get on with being calm and happy as opposed to being cranky one minute and weird and happy the next.

yet seem very content to just go with it anyway. This to me, does not seem like the healthy foundation for a "reboot". Having witnessed many such "reboots" in a few short years (and experiencing a couple myself), my perception is that generally it isn't what it seems and when it is you certainly don't notice until much later on. I wonder why in all your years of psychedelic experience and high tolerance dosing which seems to have left some members here unconcerned with your physical safety, you have never had such an epiphany previously, until you encountered this forum?

I have had epiphanies before becoming a member hear..what makes you say I haven't....they are all relevant to me and my past but I really only deal with the now here on the forums...I could bore you all to tears about my acid adventures in Amsterdam or my mushroom adventures in wales, my climbing of mount Snowden in Wales on a tab of MDMA...but these are old stories...besides in the past only close friends have been with me or have heard about them...now being a forum member I have a better and more accessible way to reiterate my experiences.

Second your extremely defensive/denial nature to the prospect that you should give up all drugs for a period of re-evaluation of your life and it's goals does not strike me as someone who has just gone through an experience which will never leave them the same again.

Re evaluate what...!!! I am as happy as I could want to be..I don't see any need for changes I have my perfectly simple life with a few close friends and a warm bed and a wife and child..I have many hobbies and write music and paint...I don't know what I am supposed to re evaluate. I'm right where I wanna be.

My opinion only, before I get accused of being a judgemental-putdowning-singleouting-asshole again. People here have already lauded you for your abandonement of synthetics and all the positive things you've integrated from your experience. Have you actually stopped the daily codeine dosing you made a desperate thread about, when you were describing the feelings of anxiety and end-of-tether depression, which had us all so concerned about your wellbeing? Funny that you weren't feeling singled out then? Maybe I missed a few threads or something but from my reading since that most concerning thread, your drug consumption has gone up, not down. To that end, I'd really like to know what positives you have taken away from this experience (aside from a general feeling of well-being)?

ERRR I was asking for assistance and wanted to hear about other peoples experiences and how did they find ways of dealing with that type of addiction...this thread has nothing to do with me asking anyone for anything...I really wanted to share a significant event from the use of an entheogen...nothing more...I do not go out of my way to get people to make feel sorry for me or cry for help...I'm so sick of hearing that one.

Lastly to the idea that I am giving advice I would not take myself: simply incorrect.

Well only you can ever know the truth behind such a statement...it's easy to give advice but very few ever take it them selves IMO.

To holymountain, you have taken far more from my post that my own words. To continue my analogy: the idea of going off a cliff is not inevitable, the point of a big red flag is to steer you away from the cliff before the event occurs. However, once you are over the cliff (because you chose to ignore the flag gravity tends to make hitting the ground inevitable, whether you like it or not. The choice is not mine to make, nor do I want to infringe on that choice once it's made. If you can ignore the advice and prove me wrong I will still be happy. Do you think I would be happy about being right in this case?

I'll let him deal with this part.

As an aside which really has nothing to do with this topic (or maybe it does), some of the things I've witnessed on this forum and had said to me over the last few days has left me feeling pretty disillusioned. My mind has always been in two parts on this issue, one is that I should just STFU, do my own thing and wait for the inevitable time bomb based on poor advice and rash behavior to blow up.

Fuck man why the dark defeatist attitude...why is everything going to go pear shaped...do you know something we all don't or are you being self righteous again...that comment really is about as negative as it gets....I hope it does blow up but I hope those comments blow up in your face and you are completely wrong..time will tell perhaps.

The other says I should stay about and try to do my best in providing information where there is none, and more importantly correcting incorrect information. I have been happy to contribute as long as I felt my contributions held some value to the other users of this forum. Not really feeling that way any more, it seems the current group of "active users" is pretty happy with the level of informational integrity which is going around at the moment, but I'm the one who's not (know I'm not the only one, but the others have already stopped posting here). So I will probably stop contributing.

So do the elitist ones leave when the newer members don't take their advice...why leave...is it all just to stupid and you are sick of hearing the same things over and over again....your posts in the past have always had the scientific data back up approach and you are obviously well educated ..perhaps looking down your nose at us dills who are seemingly going to fall through the cracks because of lack of education or rationalism. I think it's defeatist to leave and is showing a side of you that means you don't like a fight... I bet you have a hundred faults and would only maybe admit a couple but you don't seem to have that creative open mined up for anything attitude..I'm prolly wrong as I've never met you...you go doofing so that's something I guess...do you believe in plant spirits and other lifeforms living in other light dimensions...?

Edited May 14, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[Legba]

This thread gots me to thinkin...

If someone posted a "I walked in front of a bus and bounced off without gettin hurt" thread there would be a variety of responses...

you're awesome/you're a F wit, im never doin that/im goin out to try that now...

But then there are many many people who would not post for whatever reason and amongst this group there may well be someone for whom there is much value in observing the conversations. Someone who will take note of all the points of view and extract valuable info that will help them on their journey.

So never think that these words fall on deaf ears totally. It may feel like a waste of time but rest assured it isnt.

I give thanks on behalf of the observant lurker.

[MORG]

Blind endorsement and glorification is what you can see, I won't deny, but you can also not deny there are posters on this forum who are only trying to keep others informed. Plenty of people who started out as a username and avatar and who I now consider close friends have "slipped through the cracks" so to speak, and this has made me extremely sad on a deeply personal level (not to mention the insinuation that this information is being kept under wraps).

I wasn't insinuating that derailments were actively kept under wraps. More that perhaps those subjects were less talked about online than they should be, for whatever reason. Hey, it's not a sexy topic.

But obviously the conversations about the breakdown of this approach happens frequently behind the scenes when attempts at warning users of this sort of problem online (i.e. major function of this forum) will get shouted down for being an asshole or a censor or paranoid (of course I'm lumping all the recent insults aimed at me which make me want to bother less and less with saying anything at all on here).

Dude, you're getting a little dramatic there. Since when did you ever let the rabble get under your Arab-Jew skin?

Err I'm sorry I must have missed the bit where we all agreed a 29 gram dose of NSW subs was intelligent, creative, productive or responsible?

Not at all what I meant.

As an aside which really has nothing to do with this topic (or maybe it does), some of the things I've witnessed on this forum and had said to me over the last few days has left me feeling pretty disillusioned. My mind has always been in two parts on this issue, one is that I should just STFU, do my own thing and wait for the inevitable time bomb based on poor advice and rash behaviour to blow up. The other says I should stay about and try to do my best in providing information where there is none, and more importantly correcting incorrect information. I have been happy to contribute as long as I felt my contributions held some value to the other users of this forum. Not really feeling that way any more, it seems the current group of "active users" is pretty happy with the level of informational integrity which is going around at the moment, but I'm the one who's not (know I'm not the only one, but the others have already stopped posting here). So I will probably stop contributing.

Whoa. Don't know where that came from. I think the forum as an entity will always be bound by the newcomers. It's part and parcel of the format. The wheel will be reinvented over and over because people sign up here to invent their own wheels. Perhaps you've 'outgrown' the format (for want of a better word). I've certainly noticed a decline in your activity. People grow and change but it would be shortsighted to expect the forum to change with you and in your direction. I understand where you're coming from but hope you'll continue to post when it matters.

PS: Hunab: Why do you need to quote an entire post without adding to it? It's offending my (admittedly overly sensitive) sense of tidyness and order.

Edited May 14, 2009 by MORG

[Chiral]

Morg i answered all apo's comments in small font and made his bold it's a format it's not pretty but it's a format...you neat and tidy freakoid...

start calling you Monk....

H.

[incognito]

apoth, i am a hipocrite.

i thought ur post was a lil judgemental, but as you pointed out, i had been just as judgemental in my first few posts. but then i thought bout why i was.

if you read the thread you will notice i mentioned my own projections in my previous posts. I really dont know Hunab at all (well, really) asides from online posts and a short camp, plus who am i to judge? i think along with a genuine concern i was seeing some rather bad images of myself, everything i really need to say to Hunab has been said by pm.

Hope hes gained great insight into life.

Sorry Sina and Hunab for bein rude.

edit- and yes, 29grams of dried subs is an insane dose. i would definately not do it.-glad he made it back okay!

you also know that ive thought for as much good (healing and evolving) the psychadelic experience can have , so to can it do much destruction to ones self. and when it does its not pretty. unfortunately ive learned the hardway, and like you i know many that have.

Edited May 14, 2009 by incognito