Alcohol + Kava = trouble

[J Smith]

I thought I'd share my limited experience with kava.

I recently was lucky enough to travel to Vanuatu were I experienced some local kava. It's not hard to get!!

I must admit that I had drunk quite a few cocktails (beer mostly) beforehand, even though I had been told not to mix kava and alcohol... After a few shells, I found it gave me a very nice level of calmness. Looking out over the valley was awesome.

Of course I pushed the envelope trying to make the feeling even better - not a good idea. After 6 - 7 shells we went back to our resort and I proceeded to spend the next 12 hours purging my body.

The whole next day was a right off and I finally felt better the following day, 36 hours after first having the kava. I tried it once or twice after that while still in Vanuatu, but I limited myself to only 1 or 2 shells each time.

I legally bought some kava back home with me. I tried some more tonight after a few cocktails (yeah yeah I should have learnt, right?) The first cup went down slowly, until the last gulp. I felt ill from the first sip but continued to force it down with similar results.

I have just finished my second glass, which seems to be OK so far. I guess my message is whatever you do, don't drink kava after alcohol!! In my experience one bad experience will turn you off even the smell of kava for a very long time.

Anyone else experienced similar kava experiences? As they say, kava shells are like breasts, 1 is not enough, 2 are perfect, more is horrible!!

[MindExpansion]

COnsider also the possible liver damage done by combining two things which on their own are potentially somewhat hetatotoxic.

Peace

[Chiral]

So does the same thing happen when you drink Kava first then have a wine or beer...?

[Freaky Chicken]

The first time I had Kava one of my friend had it with alcohol and got to experience its hepatotoxic effects.

He turned bright yellow with jaundice, it was a little scary and we didn't really know what had happened.

It lasted a day or so but my friend didn't feel unwell.

We learnt our lesson.

[J Smith]

COnsider also the possible liver damage done by combining two things which on their own are potentially somewhat hetatotoxic.

Peace

Yeah good point, although the liver IS evil and must be punished!!

Maybe that is why my body decided to purge itself?

[Thelema]

maybe i have shit kava, certainly nothing like fresh vanuatu stuff, but i've always found a glass really pumps you over the edge on those nights drinking when you can't fall over it.

[ThunderIdeal]

don't fight on above combo either, trouble.

[tryptamine]

The Kava and liver damage thing is bulls@it propaganda from the pharm companies.

I experience an allergic reaction to the sulfites in red wine that is greatly potentiated by kava. Basically I stop breathing and break out in a rash on my chest. I assume this is due to kava inhibiting the liver enzymes that are responsible for breaking down this particular nasty down. Alcohol itself does not cause a negative reaction when combined Kava in me, I would say its synergistic, quite plesant if not over done.

[apothecary]

The Kava and liver damage thing is bulls@it propaganda from the pharm companies.

Please tryptamine, if you are going to make claims like this, everyone would appreciate some references on the matter.

Here are some references on the combination of alcohol with kava

Acute effects of kava, alone or in combination with alcohol, on subjective measures of impairment and intoxication and on cognitive performance

H. FOO 1 & J. LEMON 2

1Darwin, Northern Territory, and 2Gladesville, New South Wales, Australia

http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Acute_Eff...ication_and.pdf

Kava (Piper metl~ysticum) and alcohol were administered either separately or in combination to human

subjects. Self-reports of their levels of impairment and intoxication were collected, and performance

skills on a number of cognitive and visuomotor tests were determined, before and three times after

consumption of the experimental drink. Kava alone had no effect on reported condition. In contrast,

alcohol produced marked changes in each of the five subjective measures, all of which were in the

direction of lowered ability. The combination of these two substances produced even larger negative

changes on these measures. In the cognitive tests, kava produced a decrement in performance on Digit

Symbol Coding. Alcohol produced a significant decrease in performance on a divided attention test,

which was almost entirely on the peripheral, discontinuous component of the test. The combination of

kava and alcohol produced an even greater decrease in performance on this test, and in the same

component. The present findings suggest that kava alone has little effect on reported condition and

cognitive performance, but appears to potentiate both perceived and measured impairment when

combined with alcohol.

Here is one paper noting increased toxicity of ethanol mixed with kava in mice:

POSITIVE INTERACTION OF ETHANOL AND KAVA RESIN IN MICE

D. D. Jamieson 1 , 2 P. H. Duffield 1

1 School of Physiology and Pharmacology, University of New South Wales, Kensington, New South Wales, Australia

Correspondence to 2 D. D. Jamieson, School of Physiology and Pharmacology, University of New South Wales, Kensington, NSW 2033, Australia.

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0

1. The lipid soluble extract of the psychoactive beverage kava has hypnosedative properties which can be measured by the length of time that the righting reflex is lost.

2. Ethanol and the lipid soluble extract (kava resin) have been shown greatly to increase each others hypnotic action in mice. Ethanol also increases the toxicity of kava markedly.

3. This interaction of kava and alcohol has important clinical and social consequences since, in contrast to traditional usage, kava is now often taken in conjunction with alcoholic drinks.

Pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic drug interactions with Kava (Piper methysticum Forst. f.)

Jennifer Ankea, b and Iqbal Ramzan

a Faculty of Pharmacy, University of Sydney, Sydney, NSW 2006, Australia

b Faculty of Pharmacy, Westfälische Wilhelms-University Münster, Münster, Germany

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...fe344c037631745

Kava kava, a beverage or extract prepared from the rhizome of the kava plant (Piper methysticum Forst. f.), was used for many centuries as a traditional beverage in the Pacific Islands. During the past few decades, kava has also gained popularity in Western countries as well, due to its anxiolytic and sedative properties. However, in recent years, kava has been implicated in several liver failure cases which led to its ban in many countries and this has prompted wide discussion on its relative benefits and risks as a social beverage and a herbal remedy. Recently, it has been shown that several kavalactones, the assumed active principles of kava extracts, are potent inhibitors of several enzymes of the CYP 450 system (CYP1A2, 2C9, 2C19, 2D6, 3A4 and 4A9/11). This indicates that kava has a high potential for causing pharmacokinetic drug interactions with other herbal products or drugs, which are metabolised by the CYP 450 enzymes. In addition, several pharmacodynamic interactions have been postulated and indeed observed. Nevertheless, evidence of true pharmacokinetic and/or pharmacodynamic interactions remains unsubstantiated, and only few investigations of the potential of kava preparations to interact with specific drugs have been carried out. This review provides a critical overview of the existing data on interactions of kava with other drugs and concludes that there is an urgent need for further in vitro and in vivo investigations to fully understand clinically significant interactions with kava that have the potential to cause adverse effects or toxicity in kava users.

There is also a paper titled "Kavalactones fail to inhibit alcohol dehydrogenase in vitro" but this does not disprove alcohol increases kava toxicity.

See highlighted in red above.

I think from the anecdotal evidence provided in this thread, and other older threads which note the same thing, mixing alcohol with kava is best not to be risked! Personally I would never bother, the effect I get from kava is much more desirable than that I get from alcohol. But then again I don't really like alcohol!

Edited April 10, 2009 by apothecary

[tryptamine]

The problem with many of these tests is they have likely used Kava extracts containing aerial parts of the Kava plant, as opposed to the traditional brew prepared from 5-7 year old roots only. When pharma companies sponsor tests on natural competitive substances, they generally find whatever results they require

My statement that the Kava liver damage thing is bullsh@t was directed at Kava usage without alcohol, in reply to MindExpansions comment "two things which on their own are potentially somewhat hetatotoxic."

I would assume any damage caused by the combination is likely due to the non-toxic Kava inhibiting the breakdown of the toxic alcohol, and / or the various toxic preservatives in the alcohol.

[apothecary]

Sorry tryptamine, there was a misunderstanding on my part.

Kava is definitely not hepatotoxic, MindExpansion, I suggest you look up "glutathione".

I would assume any damage caused by the combination is likely due to the non-toxic Kava inhibiting the breakdown of the toxic alcohol, and / or the various toxic preservatives in the alcohol.

Well there is a paper which proves kava does not inhibit alcohol dehydrogenase so we can throw that theory out, but something is certainly up!

[MindExpansion]

Sina, other suggested modes of hepatotoxicity of kave are through its inhibition of cyclooxygenase, and of cyp450.

Also evidence for oral doses of glutathione actually increasing levels in the body is not too good so it seems (i dont feel like spedning 6 hours reading about it). But yeh, sure the extracts probably are worse as it would seem from the increased incidence of hepatotoxicity in users of the pharma stuff vs the traditional stuff, but anyway, heres an interesting paper on the debate, it doesnt reach any conclusions but its an interesting read nonetheless.

Link

And 'definitely' is not something i would ever apply to most medical science...particularly relatively young and undercovered fields of research such as this.

Peace

[apothecary]

Hi ME,

Not sure why you picked that "paper on papers" as there have been several which address the issue specifically.

Having read it I am not really sure what the point is, and if I was a research professor would be pretty unhappy to see such a paper submitted. Give me a couple of hours and I will write a similar one just by typing kava into scholar.google.com?

I think those claiming kava hepatotoxicity really need to specify which preparation of kava they are talking about, at what doses, etc etc. Otherwise what exactly are we discussing? One would think that if there was any such possibility, somewhere along the lines of centuries of traditional use it might have been discovered? This is what I am attaching my "definite" to, not Brazillian research "papers on papers". I will be waiting for the thousands of people who visit kava bars in countries like Vanuatu every day to start reporting liver problems before I give the idea any credence at all.

This issue has been covered a hundred times on the forum previously with little impact on the memories of members it seems.

PS: How cool are we, talking about kava toxicity on a Saturday night!

Edited April 11, 2009 by apothecary

[MindExpansion]

Think review articles are generally preferred over individual papers actually, easier to pick a single paper that has outlying results than looking at one that analyses several. Also the auther does say that studies suggest that the 'western' preparations are more hepatotoxic than the traditional preparation...possibly because of the glutathione.

I thought you were going to rythmic earth this w.e?

Peace

[apothecary]

Was gonna All my friends are there as part of the crew, which is why I'm home on a Sat night.

Since I'm moving to Melbs need all the cash I can get so couldn't turn down last nights shift. Got the rest of the w/e free but no way to get there since the convoy has already left town.

Anyway, to keep the thread on topic

Kavalactones fail to inhibit alcohol dehydrogenase in vitro

J. Ankea, b, S. Fua and I. Ramzana

aFaculty of Pharmacy, University of Sydney, Sydney, NSW, Australia

bFaculty of Chemistry and Pharmacy, Westfälische Wilhelms-University Münster, Germany

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=A...b22d183430664e4

In recent years, Kava kava (Piper methysticum, Forst. f., Piperaceae), a folkloric beverage and popular herbal remedy, has been implicated in a number of liver failure cases. Many hypotheses as to the mechanism of its hepatotoxicity, for example interactions with other co-ingested medication, have been postulated. This present study investigated whether pharmacokinetic interactions between kava constituents and alcohol via alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) inhibition by individual kavalactones might explain its claimed hepatotoxic effects. Four kavalactones, (±)-kavain, methysticin, yangonin and desmethoxyyangonin, fail to inhibit ADH in vitro at 1, 10 or 100 μM concentrations.

[t st tantra]

been wondering recently if the political situation in fiji has played any part in this?esp now there is talk of involvement by the previous gov.

t s t .

[Chiral]

Hi ME,

PS: How cool are we, talking about kava toxicity on a Saturday night!

LMAO...

[tryptamine]

Well there is a paper which proves kava does not inhibit alcohol dehydrogenase so we can throw that theory out, but something is certainly up!

Ok, that's great to know. The combination of Kava with organic beer certainly does not feel toxic, nor does it leave me with a nasty hangover.

I am however 99.9% certain that Kava inhibits the breakdown of sulphites in Red wine or somehow lowers the body,s ability to fight these. While Red wine by itself will give me a mild difficulty in breathing, on par with what one might experience from a night of heavy smoking, if I consume red wine after Kava the reaction is so bad the doctor reckons I could die. The only cure is IV adrenaline which unfortunately he would not allow me takeaways so it's a quick trip to A&E if it happens again:(

I have also suffered this reaction from drinking fruit juice after Kava, which contained the same shady additive, i forget the number now.

I drink 100 gram of Kava most nights and have otherwise never had a problem.

[MORG]

Hehe. Wish I'd known about this particular contraindication before indulging quite heavily on kava one night after more than a few beers.

The effects were outstanding. Major lazy, warm comfiness, a heavy relaxation of my entire body and an A-plus mood enhancement.

The next morning however, was horrific.

Both myself and my comrade were off-balance with severe nausea. I drove my comrade to the station that morning and was about 100 metres down the road when I realised I shouldn't be driving. My vision was sort of failing to keep up with the passing environment as I drove and I nearly had to stop the car to bate.

I got home, rushed in the door and vomited my guts up. The rest of the day was spent in a darkened room in bed because even watching TV was distressing to my senses.

This was not a regular hangover, that's for sure.

I suppose I never "did my research" on kava because I had always viewed it as such an innocuous, gentle and harmless compound.

[ThunderIdeal]

i feel hungover from kava alone. nobody else seems to agree about this.

lol why did you nearly have to stop the car to 'bate? 'batin can always wait dude lol

[mescalito]

Tryptamine:You are definitely somewhat allergic to Sulphites and maybe have an adverse reaction to concentrated Salycilates i.e.fruit juice(unless there's Sulphites in there hidden-220-228).

Vinegar contains Sulphites naturally and doesn't have to be labelled as such other than ",vinegar,"

I react to this shit in the same way....instant short sharp coughing off the bat,same with propionates,nitrates,M.S.G.and the 62X flavour enhancers(worst!!) and colours esp. 160b.

I also have no prob with mid-strength home brew and yes I'm taking Xanax....manageable but not a good idea for the same reason.If I drink commercial beer I'm up for a rough ride.

The reason Alcohol and Kava aren't a good idea is because you are both exciting and depressing the GABA inhibitory system.One of the major intersections as far as impulses go.

The effects or overdoing it can be extremely upsetting to the CNS,therefore the varied and many physical and psychological responses.

Oh and Hardy's make a nice Preservative free Red,I have no probs with this,I use it to bind up excess iron.(in moderation of course)

I'm HFe+

Anyhoo hope this helps,Im going for a kip

[coin]

i feel hungover from kava alone. nobody else seems to agree about this.

lol why did you nearly have to stop the car to 'bate? 'batin can always wait dude lol

i think there are plenty of people who would agree that kava in general, or specific cultivars, will cause a hangover of sorts.