Sorry

[hebrew]

from little things big things grow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3f2x12ShPg...feature=related

and

Edited February 13, 2008 by hebrew

[Vertmorpheus]

alrighty then. nutha long arsed post. I'm not writing you off or calling you a racist Mark... but you are certainly well educated in the kind of "fact" that racists LOVE to spread around. And I assume that at heart youre a good person (I like to keep faith in human nature if nothing else).

"the reason i used "them" is because that is exaclty what your doing. your taking a segemnt of the population and giving them special treatment. Not all abroginial families were effected. " ... um. Scuse me? You meet a lot of untouched and culturally 100 percent intact traditionally semi-nomadic hunter gatherers do you? This place was invaded, we were shot like dogs, and everyone left alive was left to rot til fairly recently... if YOUR family is doing so well, then you should be thanking gods that youre predecessors are obviously clever, resourceful, hardworking people that could drag themselves out of the shitpile ALL of us were dumped in, and a bit more quickly than somme others. Mine is the same. And I am very grateful. i dont take it as a cue to say "fuck em all". I take it as a cue to work out why people DO need "special treatment" sometimes, and to be grateful some measure is made to achieve it by people less dismissive of other peoples problems than you are.

If being fuckin INVADED doesnt qualify for any "special treatment" why the fuck should anyone merely wanting to be a uni student get any kind of cash at all, by your own logic? If anything students would be less deserving.. they chose to study nto to work. THey can still work at night? but because we live in a relatively "decent" part of the world..guess what...you can get austudy, or newstart, or whatever you fit into. I can see more readily how you could be opposed to ALL forms of welfare, than to take issue with a particular kind. Let alone the financial difference between what it costs the country to give payments to a fuck all percentage of 3 percent of the country, vs what we pay to prop up inappropriate agriculture, failing small business, corporate rednecks wanting tax dodges, etc. I really hope youre writing letters to the ATO complaining about tax braeks for high income earners when youre not here telling people that they dont deserve a "sorry for what happened, im not personally to blame, but sorry to hear about it as I am better off for it having happened". This palce would be on bloody Romanian standards if we didnt have free labour to build the place up with.

I would've sussed to your Aboriginality had you not referred to Aboriginal Australians as "them" rather than "us"? Or do you mean "nice urbanised educated well off people with a smidgen of conveniently concealable when it might get you sacked, distrusted or arrested aboriginality" vs "grubby town camp coons that sniff petrol and wear wu tang pants to centrelink"? I don't know if you actually have much to do with "aboriginal australia" (and there is such a place, believe it or not...) but it includes both the above. Thank christ, as the former can really do wonders for helping the latter. Or just leave em to rot... theyll mostly be gone in 50 or 60 years, if thats the case... no great loss eh? Just people... people that you could be one of, but that your family tree happened to get planted n grow in a more protected and better watered and fed spot than that of some other people.

You haven't, by any chance, made something of a habit of bashing your own blood verbally to get in good with the upstandings and out of a vague sense of shame at being occasionally included in a general grouping with drunken scumbags beating each other senseless with fence posts and expecting everyone else to indulge their own particular brands of weakness, have you? I really hope thats not the case, but based on your last couple, I have a hard time thinking otherwise? I know TSV is a very "line in the sand" place...Obviously it doesnt "matter" what i think... but if youre here to debate rather than just state an opinion and assume everyone either completely agrees, or just wants to swear at you, then I thought you might be interested in what I have to say.

I didn't get where I am from handouts either... and how can you expect anyone to change their possible assumptions that "we" have, if "you" are perpetuating the same hatred based myths and rumours? Whats next bud... free cars? Fires in electric stoves? Getting work in the public sector SOLELY for being Aboriginal or Islander?

Incidentally, re african-study... I personally DO think itd be great if we could "smarten" our systems to make sure that everyone gets JUST what they need, at the right time, to be set up for a better future... not even a better one, just one that is in line with our own claims to being a modern, civilised and caring society. There actually are many govt ppl, NGOs and community groups that help people of all kinds of background, disadvantaged or otherwise... africans included. And if reports by qualified and academically motivated experts finds that african newcomers DO need something extra just to break even... Im all for it. Im kind of proud when I see the list of languages you can talk to centrelink in... how many people speak most of em? fuck all... but we want to be a nice nation. Not a "sink or swim" united states style excercise in organisational neglect and "theres your list of rights, matie, maybe u can burn it to keep yourself warm in your fridgebox?" mentality. If they find a need for "afghanistudy" or "belarustudy" then I'm entirely for it. I am also entirely for making sure that ppl in the bush, disabled ppl, isolated urban people, old people, whatever... ALSO get the "special handling" they need. Who would actaully want a group that is found to be "lacking" to be left in the cold? Stalin? Saddam?

Saying that, if you can guarantee me, and prove it too, that a "new" generalised system could be delivered in a relevant, timely and even handed fashion so that noone was left short in any way on the basis of their race, gender, locality, whatever, then imm all for that too.

Do me a favour (nutha one) and leave the bigsmoke, go hang out in Wudjul Wudjul for a couple weeks, then come back and tell me about "entirely equal access to services"... BUT as I was saying, you could go to any one of a number of "white" rural communities and find the same inequity in terms of access, even once population density has been taken into account.... I never said the "special treatment" in all its forms was a good idea... some of it has been undoubtedly destructive, some of it pointless, and some of it inequal... I agreed with you last time. But that's no reason to write off the ENTIRE concept of "special handling"... especially for "differences" that people didnt choose for themselves... such as being born say deaf, or in the middle of nowhere, or not knowing a lot of English, or being raised by complete upfucks... are you saying we also do away with multilingual services at Centrelink? Special services for the deaf? Disabled access to govt buildings? Even with adjustments for population, a "white" town of a thuosand ppl is just more typically found to have a lot more going for it than a "black" community of the same... yknow why? because no "black town" has grown up on the site of a history of sound economics, a centre of trade, production... they are places ppl have been dumped once theyd been used to build those pokey lil whitebread towns... have you ever noticed that the Fine Old Rural Areas of Australia are almost devoid of blackfellas whereas the shitty impoverished land, with nothing going for it, is riddled with us? It hasnt always been like that... but then I think your grasp of history is less sound than most "poorly informed" "whites". Which is fairly sad stuff.

maybe do away with any assistance for students whatsoever (you want to study...you pay for it... get a job at nights, lets not have any forms of -Study eh? plenty o ppl think that too, and im SURE you will agree thats taking it a bit tor far).

If you honestly think everyone in this country has equal access to what they need, and should reasonably be able to expect access to given the nature of our nation and our average level of personal wealth, even after taking geography into account, then youre fairly poorly informed too. You dont watch the Careflight commerical where the old guy needs to go 3000 k for dialysys and get mildly concerned? If you dont, thats a bit nasty to my way of thinking. Obviously its probably ok with your own opinions and arseholes, eh?

I just hope thats a purely circumstantial thing, rather than a personal choice.

Also might help to work out what you actually identify with.... "them" or "us". You can't just be a blackfella when its convenient, or to win an arguement...anymore than anyone should get more cash from Centrelink by default for being black ("we" dont, actually, and havent for quite a while, and as I said any distance provisions or materials allowance afforded under abstudy is entirely in line with that available to anyone else... youre working on bloke down the pub style info from about 15 years ago here...). It's just who you are, rain or shine, favourable or unfavourably impressions included.

I entirely agree that some forms of "positive discrimination" are entirely dense, but if its a matter of too much or the wrong kind of help n assistance, or NONE AT ALL... I know what I'll take.

I don't deny or refute your aboriginality based on your opinions... I've certainly met people that tick all boxes before... most of em tend to lighten up a bit once I point out that being unaffected by the sins of the past makes their family very, very fortunate and reasonably rare, rather than that they should take their OWN lack of personal hardship at any stage and zero requirement to take advantage of "special offers" as indicative of the histories and personal needs of other people they merely happen to have a genetic connection to. And thats what it comes down to... thers the blood, and theres the heart... just being off the blood isnt enough to technically qualify as indig for most purposes, you need to also back it up with how your community regards you, and how you regard yourself. I "could" move to Norway and say I'm indig norwegian... and be entirely honest... buts its not where my heart is. I am an Aboriginal Australian, like it or lump it... if you want to just be an "Australian" and do your utmost to equalise all, ala the french and their "citizen"... thats cool too, as long as its truly equal, not just equal on paper or in word.

If you sincerely belive that there is no inherent inequality for many indig. aussies , could you please explain what it is that causes the vastly out of whack stats and personal histories? Thats not a dig, I'm honestly after suggestions as to how it ended up so disparate if everyone has entirely equal rights, access and liberties?

Just remember... genetics is part of it... culture and history is the rest... if you dont identify whatsoever with the injustices, the inherent hassles or the inequality that plagues a large amount of your own people... I am curious also to know how you can really call them your own people? Doyou still identify when it comes to say... well made films? Profitable dance companies? Sexy caramel brown goddesses with hair you could get lost in, and happily so? A resilient, resourceful and highly connected sense of spirit, community and the earth?

Your bones are your bones Mark... you cant change what theyre made of depending on what result you are after.

You can be a qualified, educated, healthy, sensible, urbanised, clever, well fed blackfella you know... without putting the boot into the rest or their sufferings. I have never been sexually abused, but I wouldn't DARE suggest that we close dow nthe like of DOCS...or child-specific legislation (by what I can make of your logic, kids would just be "citizens" and so assaulting them would carry no more weight than a big strapping bag of shit like myself?)... or dare to deny that basic fact that people that HAVE been abused, assaulted or hurt in anyway... more than anything, more than money, fame, glory, free lunches... what they really want when you ask em is for someone else , in authority, in power, a figure of respect to others... to say "I have listened to this person. And they are telling the truth as it happend to them. It should never have happened".

It makes people feel really, really, really bad to hear their sufferings objectified, rationalised as necessary, or at worst... denied outright. Fuck the compo... itll always be too much, or too little, to someone... no govt has ever made a universally popular decision, ever. But how dare you say noone is worthy of any form of apology, in case "they" take it as an admission of guilt on "your" behalf. I said in my last that I dont agree with anyone entirely unconnected being made to pay up... but the fact is that much of Australias current wealth, esp that held by our "great old families" and dynasties, is based on agriculture and production that was for a long time based almsot entirely on slave labour of the worst kind... and that a fair whack of our present relative prosperity despite such recent and humble european beginnings is because "we" had a cheap, readily transported labour force that you could shoot if it argued, like a working dog gone nuts.

As far as sins of the father and apologies of the son... I dunno about you... but personally, if my dad went to your house, and his mates held your dad down while he raped your mother, then abducted you and your siblings, to work for nothing but kicks in the balls and teabags on his property... I'd feel indescribably terrible, I would never be able to apologise ENOUGH for his actions, and I'd do all I could to remedy the lasting pain and injustice that would cause your family. I dont expect everyone else to feel the same as I do... but please don't tell me that noone feels responsible for other peoples actions. Likewise, if my daughter breaks something in your shop, I pay for it. If she pinches you child, I will apologise, discipline her, and probably dig in my pockets for a lolly to sto pyours blubbering.

Im sure theres upsides to the "nah fuck it, im ok, screw you jack" and "i never did nuffin" approach... but where the fuck would we be if EVERYONE did it on the same day? If a stranger has ever done you a kindness, you should know what I mean. And if you have ever asked for help for a problem, from someone that isnt to blame for it, and they helped you anyway, then you also know what I mean. At heart, I just KNOW that you HAVE helped someone with something you didnt "have" to... surely? If you havent, no offence, but I'll chuck all the shit you sent me in the bin... thats just nasty, nasty energy to be involved with.

If you are somehow entirely disconnected from any form, be it on the recieving or dealing end of human inequity, sufferings, abuse, neglect, whatever... first I'd like to thank the gods that theres ONE left... untouched... and secondly, Id like you to pleaseremember that you are the exception, rather than the norm...very very fortunate and you should be using your fairly blessed and rare status to come up with productive suggestions, rather than saying everyone is equal in practice.

Thats just blatantly untrue if you take a look outside your own very fortunate world.

Let me know when you're in favour of special aid for students, families, old people, young ppl w/out guardians, the disabled being scrapped entirely... after all.. thats just more special treatment isnt it? Or is it just special when it applies to other people? If you knock sommeone up, you claimin that baby bonus or not? I reckon youll give it back to the govt, given that you dont need it, arent doing anything "special" just by breeding.

I also really hope noone in your lil tribe is relying on cash from Veterans Affairs (just dont go to war) Aged Care (if u dont provude for yourself, why should we) or Disablity (as if youd be born a spastic, you spastic!).

Anyways, over the mark thing now... I just get the impression you really dont care much about anyon else in society, or the concept of "society" in general, to be honest.... just the special kind of selfish that only the very very lucky can ever hope to achieve.

Maybe you can use that position of relative purity to think of a universally sensible one size fits all style of welfare that can take perfect account of peoples circumstances so they dont have to be divided in terms of their ethnicity, age, health status, having served overseas or not, alone... thatd be lovely! Then we can ALL be "right".

VM

Edited February 13, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[incognito]

well said vert

[Torsten]

Fascinating discussion. Thanks guys.

I found the 'sorry' ceremony quite emotional and moving even though on a more pragmatic level I know it should have really never been such a big deal in the first place. It was just because we had such a mean government before that this even became such a big deal.

I don't understand what the issue is about compensation. Firstly, the law council has already stated that an apology has no bearing on the legal manouvres for compensation. It's just because Howard and the rest of the liberals didn't want to do the apology they had to come up with a vague excuse and we all swallowed it. So if there is no legal impact from saying 'sorry' then why did it take so long to apologise? Because australia is still largely a racist country.

Secondly I am surprised that about 80% of the australian population are against compensation. Any other country that has done wrong to its own population or that of a neighbouring country is expected to make some form of reparation. The second world war has taught us that reparations should never be so costly as to cripple the source, but surely, australia is affluent enough at the moment to throw some money at this disgusting chapter of its history. Even if you believe that taking children away from their families so that they can be raised in a different system of values is appropriate [and I personally don't think it is], please don't forget that many of these kids were not just placed in white homes for their own improvement, but rather many were used as cheap home-help. There are horrendous stories of stolen children growing up to be nothign more than the house servants while the white kids concentrated on their education and the emerging western decadence. How exactly was this helping the aboriginal kids integrate into the dominant white culture?

Thirdly, many aboriginal kids did not live in neglect. Many lived traditional lives full of culture, love and relevant education. They might not have gone to english schools, but their lives were quite fulfilled. The federal and state policies did not make any distinction in regards to the quality of life the child was living in. The policy focussed purely on westernising the aboriginal race regardless of whether this improved the child's live or not.

It would be difficult to work out what percentage of aboriginal kids was helped and what percentage was harmed by these policies, but it seems that even from the most forgiving perspective a good third to half of all kid's lives were NOT improved. So, when a policy is such a spectacular failure one has to wonder why it was not stopped much sooner. And let's also not forget that the obvious dysfunctionality of today's urban aboriginal communities is a direct result of these policies. It brought aboriginals to the cities where they did not want to be. It cut them off from their family networks which we know would have disastrous effects on any human culture. It disconnected them from their culture which left them spiritually and socially empty. It left them dispossessed which removed any sense of responsibility. And now we whinge about them being irresponsible, destructive, without possession, devoid of spiritual or cultural framework, etc. - WE did this!

So, it wasn't just that we did something nasty and everyone got over it a few years later and an apology would set things right again. No, we ruined the lives of mothers, children and other relatives in a culture that puts great value on family. We ruined the transmission of culture and hence their very identity. We ruined native title claims by interrupting continuous connection to the land and hence possession of country. We stole years of labour from many of these kids and left their parents in deep depression that also made them unable to be productive.

I honestly can't think of a single reason why we should NOT give the stolen generations compensation and it disgusts me that so many australians either do not understand the ethical obligation to do so, or are still so racist that they prefer not to.

And no, I don't mind using the terms 'us' and 'them'. There are obvious differences between indigenous people and white australians and I think to ignore them is silly. Differences are a good thing and should be celebrated. Like the fact that most indigenous cultures didn't singularly focus on raping and pillaging new cultures they came in contact with. Or the fact that black skin is so much more practical in a sunburnt country. But then there are also the problems that are relatively unique to indigenous cultures, such as dealing with dispossession, erosion of languages and culture, and being on the receiving end of racism. Let's not pretend we are all the same.

[reshroomED]

I've spent some time in both bush-towns and very remote communities.

Just some observations I've made over the last twenty years:

Spent twenty years growing up in Melbourne and never had an issue with an aboriginal person (that I'm aware of), yet had the living shit kicked out of me by various other ethnic groups over that time.

Had a fresh-fish business in Deniliquin for several years, and the cops (as customers) would consistently mention how they weren't allowed to lock up "coons" 'cause they'd neck themselves.

Had friends at a community out near One-tree that were more open and friendly than anyone in town.

Stepped-over comatose aboriginals lying in the main street of Tennant Creek (mid-morning) whilst doing my weekly shopping.

Had a woman offer to sell me her (I dunno, looked twelve-fourteen, hard to tell) daughter for twenty bucks in a Tennant Ck pub.

Part of my job at this time was looking after a radio-staion at a water-bore out in the Tanami desert, and I'd often blow a day just to spend with the people that I'd pass half-way to the bore. Truer and more genuine people would be very hard to find.

Watched many an advertisement on television from the governement directed at aboriginal welfare recipients. at the time, there were three main ones

1 - If you move, don't forget to tell us where to, or we won't know where to send your cheque.

2 - Put your form in, or we won't be able to pay you.

3 - Shit, I forget the last one, but there was no mention in any add of actually looking for a job.

(FWIW I'd also love any links to "Cuz-Congress" or "Condom-man" from Imparja TV circa 85?)

I've been in bush pubs when ute-loads of aboriginals have attacked the bar (I'd just stopped in for a beer).

The way I see it is that people are people.

If you're an arsehole, it doesn't matter what colour you are.

Sorry?

Well, it's a nice idea, but unless it's truly meant it's bullshit.

ed

[ballzac]

this also bothered me.... but on the other hand... sorry is a very easy word to say. Im sorry (mind the pun), but this really does wreak of politics to me, and of kevin being the big man that johnny never was. Like I said... its a very easy thing to do, which makes kevin look like a top bloke, but seems to me to currently lack any substance. Maybe im just old and cynical...infact, i always have been... well, not old, but cynical.

Sorry if this has been covered (I just started reading this thread and don't have time to read the whole thread, but have a strong urge to reply to this statement)...

Does it really matter Xipe? One can win votes by creating a campaign of fear and hatred, or by showing kindness, compassion and empathy. All politicians are playing a game. It is a popularity contest. I know who I'd rather vote for. Also, I don't think a lack of substance makes the gesture any less important. Spreading good vibes is a good thing. How can someone be criticized for righting a wrong?

[komodo]

i was having a chat with a couple of mates into the dawn last night, under a dusty white moon, and we talked a bit about the issues of sorry and compensation. here's some of my thoughts following that.

it seems that the national mood is that what rudd's government is doing is commendable, but compensation is a mixed bag.

the chase of it for me is that i'm really glad the formal apology was not coupled directly with cash. it seems to me that money would have dirtied the exchange, made it somehow less symbolic. while it might be seen as a ivory tower concern, the symbolism of it, not the on-the-ground proposals, seemed to me the point - that the hard defensive shell of old racist white australia is finally cracking, right where it's thickest at the top. maybe i'm just a romantic, but it seems like a real chance at a different vision of ourselves as australians, one less driven by denial, distraction and repression. wait and see if that chance is taken i guess.

though i'm not into compensation for that reason, obviously real action is needed. i would love to see many of the mining dollars we dig up go into a new, large scale, federally funded armature for healing, care and equality, just not individual handouts.

also... i really hope that i'm correct in thinking that dickheads like wilson tuckey (a WA pollie who refused to attend parliament for the apology speech) and those he represents are now seeming a little marginalised, and that their redneck attitudes are becoming unacceptable to most of the country.

[mark80]

alrighty then. nutha long arsed post. I'm not writing you off or calling you a racist Mark... but you are certainly well educated in the kind of "fact" that racists LOVE to spread around. And I assume that at heart youre a good person (I like to keep faith in human nature if nothing else).

"the reason i used "them" is because that is exaclty what your doing. your taking a segemnt of the population and giving them special treatment. Not all abroginial families were effected. " ... um. Scuse me? You meet a lot of untouched and culturally 100 percent intact traditionally semi-nomadic hunter gatherers do you? This place was invaded, we were shot like dogs, and everyone left alive was left to rot til fairly recently...

Why don't you live in the tradinional way vm? The ned doesn't justify the means but the end is a porduct of the means. To want an apology for this means you should forfiet your white way of living. You can't really ahve your cake and eat it. Histroy is riddeled with tails of this sort on conquering and conquest. to appolgise for every wrong doing is just silly? yet agaiin i bring up the point do all ethnic groups that have by todays standards deserve an appology? and should we give them one?

In 50 years will we be apologising to the iraq's? afterall we thought we were doing the aborginials a favour, it is accpeted that the war in iraq is happening but were doing the same there as we did with aborginails in the regard we are using firepower to instil our way of life. I would really like you to adress this point if nothing else. Your posts are long and very well writtern and often entrainting but you seem to still fail to adress some of my major points.

if YOUR family is doing so well, then you should be thanking gods that youre predecessors are obviously clever, resourceful, hardworking people that could drag themselves out of the shitpile ALL of us were dumped in, and a bit more quickly than somme others. Mine is the same. And I am very grateful. i dont take it as a cue to say "fuck em all". I take it as a cue to work out why people DO need "special treatment" sometimes, and to be grateful some measure is made to achieve it by people less dismissive of other peoples problems than you are.

My fmialy is much the smae boat as many aborginial fmailies are. I chose not to feel sorry for myslef and what has been happened, i feel lucky that the kids were taken and put in homes compared to jews in concentration camps.

your point about special treatment means you don't expect equailty, Equaility comes from everyone being equal no matter what there orgin. to have special services for the demographic means to take away equailty. yet again trying to have a cake and eat it.

You either say i am aborginail and i deserve special treatment or you say i am an eqaul and deserve what everyone else does. You really can't say i am an equal but i deserve more than everyon else.

If being fuckin INVADED doesnt qualify for any "special treatment" why the fuck should anyone merely wanting to be a uni student get any kind of cash at all, by your own logic? firstly in your post

Having said all that... you DO have a point in terms of "positive" v "negative" discrimination... not ok to not hire someone for being black, but there may be a special training intitiative in your area to get black people work... believe it or not, it has even occured to many of "us"... and has formed something of the backbone of the beliefs of some well known indigenous leaders... we don't by default want, need or have an inherent belief that we deserve "special handling"... just a greater equity in terms of "our" access to services taken for granted by most of "you".

it seems you do have an inherint belief you deserve special treatment.

yet again, you mkae light of the hard doings but what about the white way of living you take for granted everyday? you can't "complain" (although you can hate) and not even mention the good fortune end. Yet again do we deserve to have special services for every other group that has been hard done by?

re the uni student. They deserve money for what they are doing not for what has happened? Just like i whole heartly support giving money to disbaled people, but we don't give extra money to there children? why not? They are expected to conform to society norms. My uncle died in vietnam do i or my cousins deserve an apology? probably, but am i getting one? doubtful. History is history lets keep it that way.

If anything students would be less deserving.. they chose to study nto to work. You seem to take my ideaologies wrong. Help those who need help, but if they go kicking and screaming then let them be. IF they say they don't want help don't give it to them. If they say they do than don't complain about not being treated equally. Students offer something to society. They will time pay there dues back to society (most porbably in the form of tax).

THey can still work at night? but because we live in a relatively "decent" part of the world..guess what...you can get austudy, or newstart, or whatever you fit into. I can see more readily how you could be opposed to ALL forms of welfare, than to take issue with a particular kind. Ab study is a kind of racism? If you claim that they are indeed one and the smae payment then why not have austudy (or in the case of under 24 which is youth allowance.)

Let alone the financial difference between what it costs the country to give payments to a fuck all percentage of 3 percent of the country, vs what we pay to prop up inappropriate agriculture, failing small business, corporate rednecks wanting tax dodges, etc. I really hope youre writing letters to the ATO complaining about tax braeks for high income earners when youre not here telling people that they dont deserve a "sorry for what happened, im not personally to blame, but sorry to hear about it as I am better off for it having happened". This palce would be on bloody Romanian standards if we didnt have free labour to build the place up with. i beileve free labour is called slavery,

I would've sussed to your Aboriginality had you not referred to Aboriginal Australians as "them" rather than "us"? thats eaxctly what your doing making a distinction of austrlia based on aborginialty.

Or do you mean "nice urbanised educated well off people with a smidgen of conveniently concealable when it might get you sacked, distrusted or arrested aboriginality" vs "grubby town camp coons that sniff petrol and wear wu tang pants to centrelink"? I don't know if you actually have much to do with "aboriginal australia" (and there is such a place, believe it or not...) but it includes both the above. there are white people who do this as well and i have no porblames with that (in this discussion) But is it right to say that aborginail paint sniffer deserves something different to a white paintsniffer?

Thank christ, as the former can really do wonders for helping the latter. Or just leave em to rot... theyll mostly be gone in 50 or 60 years, if thats the case... no great loss eh? Just people... people that you could be one of, but that your family tree happened to get planted n grow in a more protected and better watered and fed spot than that of some other people.

Unlike a tree i have the ability to change my fortune. It was my own doing that got me where i am today. My ancestors may ahve a had a hard life and as product of that i ahve been set back. But i worked hard to get were i am today, which i think is pretty good.

You haven't, by any chance, made something of a habit of bashing your own blood verbally to get in good with the upstandings and out of a vague sense of shame at being occasionally included in a general grouping with drunken scumbags beating each other senseless with fence posts and expecting everyone else to indulge their own particular brands of weakness, have you? i have an opinion on society regardless of my blood line, just as i will cristcise my sister of she does something i don't apporve of.

I really hope thats not the case, but based on your last couple, I have a hard time thinking otherwise? I know TSV is a very "line in the sand" place...Obviously it doesnt "matter" what i think... but if youre here to debate rather than just state an opinion and assume everyone either completely agrees, or just wants to swear at you, then I thought you might be interested in what I have to say. i have coming into this discussion chnaged my opinion in light of what you and others have said. note my first post was preety silly but the later posts i think i have evolved my ideas into a reasonable collection of points which are backed up somewhat by evidence.

I didn't get where I am from handouts either... and how can you expect anyone to change their possible assumptions that "we" have, if "you" are perpetuating the same hatred based myths and rumours? Whats next bud... free cars? Fires in electric stoves? Getting work in the public sector SOLELY for being Aboriginal or Islander? When the majority of public figureheads for the aborginial community publicly advocate such things, as they suggested monetary compensation, its really hard not to group all people togther.

i'll try a metaphor, if everyday on tv you see a gay leader saying that he wants the right to be able to marry his bf, you than see a gay guy and his bf would you not group them into it and say, that he beileves he has the rigtht to marry his bf?

Incidentally, re african-study... I personally DO think itd be great if we could "smarten" our systems to make sure that everyone gets JUST what they need, at the right time, to be set up for a better future... not even a better one, just one that is in line with our own claims to being a modern, civilised and caring society. which has come through a rather cruel history, but we are who we are form what history has made us.

There actually are many govt ppl, NGOs and community groups that help people of all kinds of background, disadvantaged or otherwise... africans included. And if reports by qualified and academically motivated experts finds that african newcomers DO need something extra just to break even... Im all for it. shouldn't this sytem be based on hwo ever needs help should get it not, because your aboriginail you need help? Look at uni, my mate is an extremly talented guy, he has straight hd's and doesn't get a cent out the uni, another, also a good friend, barley scartches through with passes and has failed three times yet stll continues to get signifacnt monetary contribution even though his parents make twice as much as the other guy?

Im kind of proud when I see the list of languages you can talk to centrelink in... how many people speak most of em? fuck all... but we want to be a nice nation. Not a "sink or swim" united states style excercise in organisational neglect and "theres your list of rights, matie, maybe u can burn it to keep yourself warm in your fridgebox?" mentality. If they find a need for "afghanistudy" or "belarustudy" then I'm entirely for it. your entriley for racsim? You want to further divide our country based on race, rather than have a if you need help you get it and if you don't you get what everyone else does. Whne you start treating people difefrently you build racism and those poeple will egt ideolgies attached to them.

I am also entirely for making sure that ppl in the bush, disabled ppl, isolated urban people, old people, whatever... ALSO get the "special handling" they need. Who would actaully want a group that is found to be "lacking" to be left in the cold? Stalin? Saddam? I never said that.

Saying that, if you can guarantee me, and prove it too, that a "new" generalised system could be delivered in a relevant, timely and even handed fashion so that noone was left short in any way on the basis of their race, gender, locality, whatever, then imm all for that too. I am sure that it would have faults to... but in order to abolish racism you need to treat everyone equally, and not some more equaly than others.

[b]Do me a favour (nutha one) and leave the bigsmoke, go hang out in Wudjul Wudjul for a couple weeks, then come back and tell me about "entirely equal access to services"... BUT as I was saying, you could go to any one of a number of "white" rural communities and find the same inequity in terms of access, even once population density has been taken into account....[/b] Where did that come from? I think you made that point already and i said this ha snothing to do with the discussion, if only white ppl got help in those circumstances than that would be a difefernt stroy. but in the bigsmoke they have much acces to services as white folk. and even in the rural communities they have the same acess to resources as whitie. They ahve the same access to resources they choose not to use them, now tell me pelase who's fault is that? you can't jam the services down tehre throat can you? take a horse to water....

I never said the "special treatment" in all its forms was a good idea... some of it has been undoubtedly destructive, some of it pointless, and some of it inequal... I agreed with you last time. But that's no reason to write off the ENTIRE concept of "special handling"... especially for "differences" that people didnt choose for themselves... such as being born say deaf, or in the middle of nowhere, or not knowing a lot of English, or being raised by complete upfucks... are you saying we also do away with multilingual services at Centrelink? Special services for the deaf? Disabled access to govt buildings? Even with adjustments for population, a "white" town of a thuosand ppl is just more typically found to have a lot more going for it than a "black" community of the same... yknow why? because no "black town" has grown up on the site of a history of sound economics, a centre of trade, production... they are places ppl have been dumped once theyd been used to build those pokey lil whitebread towns... have you ever noticed that the Fine Old Rural Areas of Australia are almost devoid of blackfellas whereas the shitty impoverished land, with nothing going for it, is riddled with us? It hasnt always been like that... but then I think your grasp of history is less sound than most "poorly informed" "whites". Which is fairly sad stuff.

I wish we were all as smart as you are vert.

refer a few paargrapsh uo to where i adressed deaf ppl.

those pople arn't forced to leave, if they do its there choice? History has its porblems with evryone. But i am talking about today. aborgionials have the same opurtunity to do as others do.

maybe do away with any assistance for students whatsoever (you want to study...you pay for it... get a job at nights, lets not have any forms of -Study eh? plenty o ppl think that too, and im SURE you will agree thats taking it a bit tor far).

I think your going to great lengths to try and prove a point, even if it envoloves putting words in my mouth. re- read this where i adressed my point about students.

If you honestly think everyone in this country has equal access to what they need, and should reasonably be able to expect access to given the nature of our nation and our average level of personal wealth, even after taking geography into account, then youre fairly poorly informed too. You dont watch the Careflight commerical where the old guy needs to go 3000 k for dialysys and get mildly concerned? If you dont, thats a bit nasty to my way of thinking. Obviously its probably ok with your own opinions and arseholes, eh? Now your really scrapping the bottom of the barrel. The discussion was based on aborginial vs white ppl to have access to services. If they had a dialysis machione were only white ppl could use it than i would be pissed. Your getting off topic maybe to paint me as an ignorant racist?

[b]I just hope thats a purely circumstantial thing, rather than a personal choice.

This alos apllies to my above comment.

Also might help to work out what you actually identify with.... "them" or "us". You can't just be a blackfella when its convenient, or to win an arguement...anymore than anyone should get more cash from Centrelink by default for being black ("we" dont, actually, and havent for quite a while, and as I said any distance provisions or materials allowance afforded under abstudy is entirely in line with that available to anyone else... youre working on bloke down the pub style info from about 15 years ago here...). It's just who you are, rain or shine, favourable or unfavourably impressions included. My point of abstyudy has been adressed already. I neevr said they get mroe money form abstudy? they do get more assitance form the governamnt though which defies the purpose of equailty.

I entirely agree that some forms of "positive discrimination" are entirely dense, but if its a matter of too much or the wrong kind of help n assistance, or NONE AT ALL... I know what I'll take.

I don't deny or refute your aboriginality based on your opinions... I've certainly met people that tick all boxes before... most of em tend to lighten up a bit once I point out that being unaffected by the sins of the past makes their family very, very fortunate and reasonably rare, rather than that they should take their OWN lack of personal hardship at any stage and zero requirement to take advantage of "special offers" as indicative of the histories and personal needs of other people they merely happen to have a genetic connection to. And thats what it comes down to... thers the blood, and theres the heart... just being off the blood isnt enough to technically qualify as indig for most purposes, you need to also back it up with how your community regards you, and how you regard yourself. I "could" move to Norway and say I'm indig norwegian... and be entirely honest... buts its not where my heart is. I am an Aboriginal Australian, like it or lump it... if you want to just be an "Australian" and do your utmost to equalise all, ala the french and their "citizen"... thats cool too, as long as its truly equal, not just equal on paper or in word. personailty with 1 thing but muping everyone togther is difefernt. people should have equal oprtunity.

If you sincerely belive that there is no inherent inequality for many indig. aussies , could you please explain what it is that causes the vastly out of whack stats and personal histories? Thats not a dig, I'm honestly after suggestions as to how it ended up so disparate if everyone has entirely equal rights, access and liberties?

adressed already in my reply to sina posts. Personnel choice.

Just remember... genetics is part of it... culture and history is the rest... if you dont identify whatsoever with the injustices, the inherent hassles or the inequality that plagues a large amount of your own people... I am curious also to know how you can really call them your own people? Doyou still identify when it comes to say... well made films? Profitable dance companies? Sexy caramel brown goddesses with hair you could get lost in, and happily so? A resilient, resourceful and highly connected sense of spirit, community and the earth?

this sin't a mking alot of sense to me.

Your bones are your bones Mark... you cant change what theyre made of depending on what result you are after.

your right but there just bones they formed by the pac-6 gene (i think:)) that everyone else are. just becaus emine was inherted from some black lady doesn't make me an difefrent to anyone else.

You can be a qualified, educated, healthy, sensible, urbanised, clever, well fed blackfella you know... without putting the boot into the rest or their sufferings. I have never been sexually abused, but I wouldn't DARE suggest that we close dow nthe like of DOCS...or child-specific legislation (by what I can make of your logic, kids would just be "citizens" and so assaulting them would carry no more weight than a big strapping bag of shit like myself?)... or dare to deny that basic fact that people that HAVE been abused, assaulted or hurt in anyway... more than anything, more than money, fame, glory, free lunches... what they really want when you ask em is for someone else , in authority, in power, a figure of respect to others... to say "I have listened to this person. And they are telling the truth as it happend to them. It should never have happened".

It makes people feel really, really, really bad to hear their sufferings objectified, rationalised as necessary, or at worst... denied outright. Fuck the compo... itll always be too much, or too little, to someone... no govt has ever made a universally popular decision, ever. But how dare you say noone is worthy of any form of apology, in case "they" take it as an admission of guilt on "your" behalf. I said in my last that I dont agree with anyone entirely unconnected being made to pay up... but the fact is that much of Australias current wealth, esp that held by our "great old families" and dynasties, is based on agriculture and production that was for a long time based almsot entirely on slave labour of the worst kind... and that a fair whack of our present relative prosperity despite such recent and humble european beginnings is because "we" had a cheap, readily transported labour force that you could shoot if it argued, like a working dog gone nuts.

As far as sins of the father and apologies of the son... I dunno about you... but personally, if my dad went to your house, and his mates held your dad down while he raped your mother, then abducted you and your siblings, to work for nothing but kicks in the balls and teabags on his property... I'd feel indescribably terrible, I would never be able to apologise ENOUGH for his actions, and I'd do all I could to remedy the lasting pain and injustice that would cause your family. I dont expect everyone else to feel the same as I do... but please don't tell me that noone feels responsible for other peoples actions. Likewise, if my daughter breaks something in your shop, I pay for it. If she pinches you child, I will apologise, discipline her, and probably dig in my pockets for a lolly to sto pyours blubbering. your logic dicataes that if your dad commited the offences above you should go jail as well.

Stopped rpelying here. well edit later.

Im sure theres upsides to the "nah fuck it, im ok, screw you jack" and "i never did nuffin" approach... but where the fuck would we be if EVERYONE did it on the same day? If a stranger has ever done you a kindness, you should know what I mean. And if you have ever asked for help for a problem, from someone that isnt to blame for it, and they helped you anyway, then you also know what I mean. At heart, I just KNOW that you HAVE helped someone with something you didnt "have" to... surely? If you havent, no offence, but I'll chuck all the shit you sent me in the bin... thats just nasty, nasty energy to be involved with.

If you are somehow entirely disconnected from any form, be it on the recieving or dealing end of human inequity, sufferings, abuse, neglect, whatever... first I'd like to thank the gods that theres ONE left... untouched... and secondly, Id like you to pleaseremember that you are the exception, rather than the norm...very very fortunate and you should be using your fairly blessed and rare status to come up with productive suggestions, rather than saying everyone is equal in practice.

Thats just blatantly untrue if you take a look outside your own very fortunate world.

Let me know when you're in favour of special aid for students, families, old people, young ppl w/out guardians, the disabled being scrapped entirely... after all.. thats just more special treatment isnt it? Or is it just special when it applies to other people? If you knock sommeone up, you claimin that baby bonus or not? I reckon youll give it back to the govt, given that you dont need it, arent doing anything "special" just by breeding.

I also really hope noone in your lil tribe is relying on cash from Veterans Affairs (just dont go to war) Aged Care (if u dont provude for yourself, why should we) or Disablity (as if youd be born a spastic, you spastic!).

Anyways, over the mark thing now... I just get the impression you really dont care much about anyon else in society, or the concept of "society" in general, to be honest.... just the special kind of selfish that only the very very lucky can ever hope to achieve.

Maybe you can use that position of relative purity to think of a universally sensible one size fits all style of welfare that can take perfect account of peoples circumstances so they dont have to be divided in terms of their ethnicity, age, health status, having served overseas or not, alone... thatd be lovely! Then we can ALL be "right".

VM

 

[Mr. Farrz]

This has been a very interesting discussion particularly for my pretty urban point of view.

I think vert and T are right on the mark, and much more eloquent than I could hope to be, but thought I'd chip in again anyway

The ceremony yesterday was very touching, and I think was so much better than our previous government could have done were it willing to that it has been worth the wait (although maybe not quite such a long wait...).

As far as "why should we say sorry" goes, I think there are two key reasons

- To acknowledge the utter bullshit that's been perpetrated up until 30 years ago by previous governments and the public - and acknowledge it as being wrong and unacceptable. What generation is this? Ours? Our parents? Grandparents? There's often no need to look further back than that.

- To apologise personally for the actions of our ancestors - Just as we'd (surely?) apologise to those impacted if our Fathers became mass murderers today. As someone whose family arrived on the second fleet I feel like I personally need to make reparation in some way..

And as far as compensation goes I think it's obvious to most that there can be benefit from this. There are so many health and social issues in remote indigenous communities that any support from the government can only help. Rudd several times mentioned the 'close the gap' campaign initiated by Oxfam, and government support of that would be wonderful.

Chris.

[XipeTotec]

Sorry if this has been covered (I just started reading this thread and don't have time to read the whole thread, but have a strong urge to reply to this statement)...

Does it really matter Xipe? One can win votes by creating a campaign of fear and hatred, or by showing kindness, compassion and empathy. All politicians are playing a game. It is a popularity contest. I know who I'd rather vote for. Also, I don't think a lack of substance makes the gesture any less important. Spreading good vibes is a good thing. How can someone be criticized for righting a wrong?

because it is faux kindness, compassion and empathy, faux good vibes and faux righting a wrong. I find it odd that out of all the posts in this thread you felt a strong urge to respond to mine. As for my thoughts on the aftermath of the speech, I only watched a few minutes of it, but, with all my cynicism, I saw good in it. Why? well, I happened to catch the bit about an 80 odd year old lady, who was taken away in the 30's. Its was quite moving story, and I realised, that as faux as I say it is, it is good that this was such a widely publicised event, which has given an understanding of such occurrences to the general population. Hopefully, it will have a long lasting effect on the country.

[apothecary]

HEH!

Ok, first of all I am not angry "by proxy". I am not getting angry for Aboriginal people. I am getting angry at ignorance. Actually, more scared than angry.

All of these are self inflicted. I (nor anyone else i can think of) has at any stage prevented them from learning to read and write. Life expectancy is a direct result from engaging in self destructive behaviours. Incaceration, is well from commiting crimes.

This is BULLSHIT. You can't honestly, actually believe this can you?

Infant mortality rates in Aboriginal communities are retardedly high. This is due to a lack of medical professionals in these areas. Not personal choice. How exactly does a two year old engage in self destructive behaviour?

Illiteracy rates are due to a lack of proficient teaching staff in these areas. Not personal choice. The government is ONLY JUST NOW LIKE SERIOUSLY LESS THAN A MONTH AGO implementing programs to get teachers to head to the communities where they lack.

Incarceration rates are unbelievably high compared to the rest of the populace because of racist police and judicial staff. If you don't believe me, you can check out the research papers on this, or the findings of the POLICE INTEGRITY COMMISIONS or any of the other myriad of sources that absolutely contradict the bullshit you're spouting as fact.

I am literally sick to my stomach.

[ballzac]

I find it odd that out of all the posts in this thread you felt a strong urge to respond to mine.

Sorry, I wasn't singling you out. I just was being lazy and didn't read the thread. So yours was only one out of a few posts that I read, not the whole thread.

[Vertmorpheus]

lol sorry Sina wasnt having a crack matie, just trying to keep it cool in here... but now... let me know when you need a hand digging the hole.

yeah alright Mark. All or nothing eh? "by my logic" indeed... you couldnt follow my logic or that of anyone else in the know if you had a gun between your lips. Youd be too busy thinking "eh, musta got the gun for free for being Aboriginal".

As for traditional... as far as possible, we do live in line with our understanding of tradition as it relates to family, land, property, gratefulness, creativity, expression. Nice presumption there. If you mean why dont I live in the desert wearing a loin cloth skinning annas with my teeth...thats because the mobs im from, Wirajuri and Nanawal, kinda both had SYDNEY AND CANBERRA DROPPED ON THEM. And... I wouldnt exist at all if that injustice hadn't have happened. Bummer of a situation, but we do the best we can. in the meantime, I could but wont provide a list of "traditional things we do around here"... as they wont be traditional ENOUGH for you, I reckon.

Why is it so easy to tell whether someone is an academic... or a "student"? Contribute to society..yeah... like youre doing now?

I shoulda stuck with my original impressions of you based on yuor remarks concerning age of consent, way back whenever that was... but i thought no, youve misunderstood, NOONE could be that uncaring and blase about other peoples lives and sufferings... but now i know.. you are. Whether you are actually sociopathic or just emotionally and empathetically frozen, I cant tell, and I'm not interested. Minds like yours should be put in jars so the rest of us can study them.

I tend to be too forgiving... mostly it works. Sometimes, like now, it bites me in the bum.

All your shits going in the bin, you're a bit of a nasty fucker and I don't need that in my life. Now I know why they kept moulding up and being three times as bug prone as the rest of my stuff.

Equality, and ensuring it is a fact not just a principle, is what im talking about. And some people, for whatever reason not of their own choosing, are less equal than others. Any "swing back the other way" is based on promoting equality, not preventing it... and any special treatment is based on the knowledge and fact that some people start further from the starting line than others.

As for not being grateful for the outcome... did you miss where I said I am extremely grateful for my life, as should you be?

Just ignore the bits that make you look like a bigot Mark, itll be easier in the long run.

if you dont want people to think youre a pig ignorant racist relying on secondhand facts handed out by other poorly informed nobodies that DONT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT and havent since about 1992, maybe just zip it up eh? Or get your facts straight. Might help to get over being ashamed of your own culture too... but I reckon its too late for that. Anything to not get called a boong eh Mark?

"the majority of leaders"... wha? how do you work that out? I dont think you actually KNOW any leaders, personally, or you wouldnt be saying that. You can be an Aboriginal in Australia without being in anyway connected to the rest of the society or the culture... and you an ideal example of what happens when that happens.

Oh do you mean the leaders quoted on right wing orientated alarmist news reports and editorials? As opposed to the thousands of elders and those in the know that believe measures to ensure equality are only of value if coupled with self determination and self respect?

Anyways... anyone that knows how to read can tell you don't even know what you're talking about (unless under 24, then its abstudy? buh? Heres me thinking its newstart or youth allowance, if you're not actually studying? where do you keep getting this stuff from? is it a case of being misinformed, or are you just making things up now?).

You're the worst kinda coconut. thatsa horrible word, but you sound like something of a horrible little person, so I feel justified in using it.

Australia doesnt need people like you, Aboriginal Australia certainly doesnt need it, and from now on, youre a walking corpse as far as I'm concerned. A detractive non entity.

I'll never attempt to help, contribute or assist you in any way at all, ever again. And Id be surprised and a lil disappointed if many others didn't reach the same conclusion.

Learn our history... learn our present... otherwise expect to keep puttin your foot in it. Or being called out for just making things up and telling lies.

best of luck with dissemating your falsehoods.

VM

[worowa]

Sorry business.

Forgiveness takes courage.

Funny how Obama is "black", when half his heritage is "white". Same goes in this country. We're all related, all one mob, and whoever you are, you deserve justice and respect.

Thank goodness we've got a leader to be proud of, at last.

[Ace]

I can see why this topic is getting so incredibly heated, and why a few people are taking it very personally (we all can see that). I think that everyone (everyone) needs to take a deep breath, step back and empathise (maybe even add just a little sprinkle of this stuff: ). The very fact that this thread has degenerated and formed a neat little wound in our online community just shows what a huge thing the Reconcilliation process is to the people of Australia, and very much in perticular to those of indigenous decent. As a result, it is to be expected that people are going to get incredibly sensitive and react in harsh ways to stupid/uninformed comments.

I think Mark's main point in this thread is that he doesn't want to feel like he deserves any difference in treatment (via compo, appologies, etc) to anyone else, based only on his bloodlines/family history. This is a very important point to raise/opinion to share - I know I have heard this mentioned several times by people in minor groups (as well as those who are treated 'specially' because of a disability or any other alteration from the majority [which happens to be imported people from across the globe, mainly of english/euro decent]). I think that true equality will only come from this (putting everyone on an even playing field) - compo and appologies are fantastic as the starting point, but they are certainly not going to be a 'be all and end all' to the divide between 'whities' and 'blacks' (sincere appologies if anyone dislikes these terms - happy to edit if need be). Like it has been mentioned so many times in the past, we are all the same species and the one whole. Petty squabling between groups of different ethnicity seems so utterly stupid, ignorant and old-fashioned when looking at people as a whole. To quote Worowa:

We're all related, all one mob, and whoever you are, you deserve justice and respect.

Thats what it all boils down to. We are one people - racism should be a thing of the past, and I honestly feel that the appology that took place yesterday will be the big eye-opener for Australia as a whole (or at least those of us who gave enough of a shit to turn the telly on for a few minutes to see the footage or rocked up to the lawns of Parliament to hear it spoken live). From the seed that was planted in yesterdays speech, I can see good things growing and the Australian culture will make a turn for the better thanks to a government that can actually take the blame and responsibility left from previous generations of leaders.

Vert, Sina - remember that hate and fear is what started this whole mess in the first place -

[XipeTotec]

Sorry, I wasn't singling you out. I just was being lazy and didn't read the thread. So yours was only one out of a few posts that I read, not the whole thread.

nah, i wasnt offended... I couldnt be bothered reading all the long posts either... just ask vert what my feelings are in relation to long posts

[Vertmorpheus]

Certainly is Ace, very good point to make. I don't take it personally however as I neither hate or fear Mark... I wish neither harm or ill to him, and at no point did I deny his basic right to state his points of view. You know by now I am a fairly accepting and adaptable person, but if there is one thing I cannot and will not tolerate in my own little universe, it's anything that even resembles intentional ignorance, especially when you have sound reason to be otherwise.

Just remember Ace... if someone (god forbid, bang on wood, all that...bear with me) did something unspeakable to your Mum... and you and her were later told that it didnt happen at all... then revised to well it did, but it was for her own good and hey look at her shes doin ok now... then revised to well ok shes not doin ok but thats entirely down to her inability to rise above it and rebuild things for herself... then revised to well ok it did happen, and none of its your fault essentially, but we dont believe she is entitled to anyk ind of apology or official recognition for her suffering or the follow on effects, let alone financial reparation to provide a sense of a "deal done" and to help rebuild her life and that of her offspring... I reckon youd be PRETTY pissed off too. I dont reckon any amount of happy wub faces would make you feel TOO much better. If anything, you might find yourself taking others advice to just love up over it as something of an affront to your own feelings on the situation, even if thats not how the caring onlookers meant for you to feel?

When people pull the "own good" thing out of the bag, they're about half an inch of being the same kind of people as those who ask sex assault victims in courtrooms things like "so did you climax or become aroused during the events described?" as if deriving any kind of benefit in any way is some kind of "well there ya go, dont complain too much" cure-all.

To top it, if the person that told you and your Mum all that then said "well see the reason is that it never happened to me anywhere near that bad, and I could sort shit out afterwards, so she must just be lazy, or self indulgent, or intentionally demotivated or something and hey shes nothing special, bad shit happens to people all the time, so why should anyone get an apology?" I cant even begin to imagine how fucked off youd really be...but I suspect being a sensible and basically nice person like you, that with the last of your own reserves of inherent respect for fellow human beings and love for your own sanity and self regard you would be faced with the choic to either hate them, hate yourselves, OR just decide theyre a bit backwards and you want nothing to do with em anymore. I really doubt you could bring yourself to "love" them or resist the urge to inform them of how you feel, and where they stand with you now. Im not having a crack bud Im really not... love is a ..well... lovely thing. But sometimes, under the circumstances, its a lil too much to expect. Kudos for trying to be a harmonious note in a discordant compostion though, it is very admirable.

Re minority groups and people that get tired of being lumped with em in terms of needing a hand up... of course! Wheelies dont like people assuming theyre braindead... but they wouldn't say "just pull all the ramps out cos I personally am lucky enough to have a chair that works ok on stairs, or theres no stairs in my town, or I just need a wheelchair most of the time and can actually get out of it long enoug hto lump it up em myself". They would say "my legs don't work, my brain is just fine...I'm a person with a disability, not a disabled person". Ditto ethnic groupings... some people have many good personal reasons for not wanting to by "lumped with the rest"... and in most cases its down to being embarrassed to be in any way connected with em.

If people don't feel right, entitled, or justified in taking advantage of whatever help is on offer, thats obviously no skin off anyones nose... but to turn around and say that noone else is deserving or in need of extra assistance because THEY don't happen to need it themselves, is just dense. And dense is ok from stupid people, but mark doesnt seem to be stupid. He does seem to be peddling as facts things that he has made zero effort to ascertain the truthfulness of, even after being told they are untrue... hate n fear might hold us back, lying will stop us dead in our tracks.

All you need to read is "to appolgise for every wrong doing is just silly?"... so what, the more evil we see, the less each act should bother us? Oooo k then.... that and his reported cultural identity seems to shift a fair bit? Still referring to Aboriginal Australians as another group entirely that doesnt contain him...yet says hes Aboriginal? Confuzzling... if not intentionally deceptive.

"In 50 years will we be apologising to the iraq's? afterall we thought we were doing the aborginials a favour, it is accpeted that the war in iraq is happening but were doing the same there as we did with aborginails in the regard we are using firepower to instil our way of life. I would really like you to adress this point if nothing else. Your posts are long and very well writtern and often entrainting but you seem to still fail to adress some of my major points. "

I will address that one, forget in the last... for starters, mark is STILL with the "we" thought "we" were doing "the aboriginals"... now yall know i hate the word game bullshit ppl get into... but thats just not something that you would write if you considered yourself Aboriginal... maybe I expect too much from peoples pronoun-play? Next... many people at the time, both civvies and state ppl, didnt do it "to do us a favour" as is often reported... though that did form part of the interests of some individual missionaries etc... mostly it was done purely for assimilation... one had only to raed the many treatise basically trying to prove that "quadroons n below are white enoug hto not be offensive" to understand that. Doyou understand that? That means that I myself would have been taken in a flash as I am pretty pasty... and any darker siblings would have been taken as quickly but probably coming to far quicker ends due to their "less desirable" nature. Next... I think we owe the everyday iraqi civvy a MASSIVE APOLOGY... is mark saying they dont deserve one, because something similarly nasty happened to someone else and well...they didnt get one.. (despite the fact we just did? note the "we" there). And thats coming from someone that doesnt instantly dismiss the entire "war on terror" idea in a flash like some others will... I can still accept that everytime a civilian dies, someone has made a mistake. And that person deserves justice, they or their families.

Hows that for dealt with?

To explain more clearly too... living corpse is no kind of threat, its just a statement of regard common to many Aboriginal peoples sometimes in different words... basically means "I wash my hands of you as I think you will take more from me than you could ever replace". You hear of pointing the bone? After that, youre a walking corpse... an interpersonal excommunication... which means they are entirely free to interact with others, its up to them... but you have nothign to do with em anymore.

Still, his ignorance has served an education purpose for others... I guess I'm mildly pleased with that. But it will do him no favours. I could stretch things real far and say that hes one of the MOST unfortunate indig aussies ive come across, as he seems to feel no connection to his heritage, knows nothing of his own peoples history or present, and thru being "properly assimilated for his own good" is now to be found making claims against his own people... is that an almost shatteringly successful absorption of aculture or what? Thats as far as I can bend my perceptions and the feelings and thoughts they trigger in the name of Love... if I was a "bigger man" I could do better ,I know... but I just can't for now.

Love IS a critical part of it... and so why i will dismiss from my dealings anyone that seems to possess not a trace of it for their fellow humans, regardless of race.

VM

oops i forget Xipe... I have no idea what your feelings are in relation to long posts, I'm too busy writing them What I dont get is why people read a largish body of text and then blame the author, that they didnt feel like really reading it all in the first place

Edited February 14, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[Vertmorpheus]

Bloody hell, nearly held people down and made em read all that AGAIN! snip snip.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[Ace]

I think you took my post in the wrong light Vert - I in no way support Mark's or anyone elses ignorance (and certainly try not to be too ignorant myself). I was just backing him up on the point that over sympathy and false/faux sympathy can be interpretted as a sign of underlying pity which I feel in some ways can be equally as bad as outright hate (to pity simply means that you feel you are better off than another - very similar to racism in some ways, but not all). I dont think in any way that this point should detract from the sincere (or what should be) condolences and appologies given in the speech (which definately should have been made). I think this might be where Mark doesnt quite accept the appology (or rejects it outright), because he feels that it is out of sheer pity, not sincerity.

The fact that Mark doesnt think that anyone deserves an appology simply because he has made his life better than it might be for some definately doesnt sit well with me. I congratulate Mark on the fact that he has made a good life for himself, but there is no denying what has happened in the past. While I did support Mark's opinion about pity being a form of racism, ignorance certainly is up there too (comments like "to appolgise for every wrong doing is just silly?" demonstrate ignorance in its entirety), which I feel is your main complaint against 'Mr Eighty'. Couldnt agree with you more.

Like I've said before, this whole process has brought a lot of new light onto the matter, perticularly for average 'whites' like myself who have very little understanding of the trauma that surrounds this topic (mainly because it was not taught in school or spoken about within family/friend groups). There has always been a degree of racism, be it via lame jokes or people doing things as simple as not sitting near a person of different ethnicity due to underlying unease/dislike/distrust/whatever. But I think that things will be able to move forward if people accept what has happened in the past - everything from stolen children to disliking the new kid because he looks different - and work towards building a close knit society that truly appreciates all the different cultures that Australia is home to.

[XipeTotec]

oops i forget Xipe... I have no idea what your feelings are in relation to long posts, I'm too busy writing them What I dont get is why people read a largish body of text and then blame the author, that they didnt feel like really reading it all in the first place

i dont read them

[ThunderIdeal]

Thank goodness we've got a leader to be proud of, at last.

cheers to that.

The way I see it is that people are people.

If you're an arsehole, it doesn't matter what colour you are.

Sorry?

Well, it's a nice idea, but unless it's truly meant it's bullshit.

ed

that's exactly right. the thing is, whether or not our government truly meant it, the issue is in everyones minds now. as an entire nation we can acknowledge that wrong was done, not centuries ago, but mere decades ago, recent enough that it's still a direct issue for US. i hope as individuals we can all do our part, by being less racist, less discriminatory, and generally embracing their culture as a great asset to our country and including them in our culture where they wish to be included.

TBH of the two aboriginals i know one gets up to some really dodgy stuff, but i'm going to acknowledge it is probably largely due to circumstances which were imposed by my ancestors and even MY generation.

[Vertmorpheus]

yeah i know Ace, and i wasnt trying to have a crack at you... youre one of the most consistently intelligent, open minded (without being a space cadet) and able to face your own lil failings people around here... nevermind the "ignorant white person" bit... sommeone with one piece of info but a true hope for more is of more benefit than someone with a head full of "knowledge" that doesnt give a shit about the outcomes. if that makes any sense. thanks again for trying to be the "student in front of the tank" for the benefit of others.

It has to be remembered too.... that thru all of Australias dark past, there have always been ...well puttin it bluntly, nasty sell out indigies, and very kind and caring newcomers that were nothing but disgusted about the things going on... every race has its Oscar Schindlers, and most we will never knnow the names of, as they had to do their work in private. Anyrate, not EVERY euro with a spare 5 mins back then was out hunting my mob for sport... interestingly enough, most of the real "Atrocities" early on were carried out by landed gentry and those that would be... others like the average Irish labourer, enterprising Norwegian fossickers etc... couldnt give two shits and tended to intermingle and interbreed much more freely with the "inhuman monsters". Likewise, some of the nastiest betrayals came about when Uptight Brit X hired trackers from Mob A, to go find bad boys from mob B... mobs that had traditionally had it for each other anyway, long tanding hostilities etc... it isnt as cut n dried as "all white people were naughty and allblacks were just peacefully hanging out munching goannas".

half the people I know of any background are up to something dodgy thunder but i know what you mean... the mind has to do some fairly hectic loop the loops to not jump to conclusions, sometimes.... I guess the signs of progress are found in stopping to have a think rather than isntantly assuming you know whats going on ;)

VM

ah, nearly forgot... word games... nevermind stress about using words like "black" n "white"... noone with half a brain takes em in the wrong way, we all know what they mean... of COURSE "black" can just as often mean a fairly pasty specimen like myself, that still picked up the Free Bonus Massive Browridges, classic crazy hair and bone structure like a set of AFL goals... and "white' can often mean people that are quite sure theyre white...til you look at some of the sayings their family tends to use, their own bone structure, some of their odd little thoughts about things... lot of people in Australia are a lil more ... colourful..than theyd been told. Theres also plenty of people that are "black" that couldnt give a spare shit about nature and couldnt find water in the scrub with both hands and a GPS, and theres many, many "white" people out there that are VERY much part of their own landscapes...they have their own dreamings of their places. Thats why typically, to save time and prevent toes, "we' go with the terminology and idea that you either identify as an Aboriginal Australian, or you dont.... degrees, appearance, cultural awareness rarely get brought into it... same as a few ppl have said "urban" kind of meaning "not connected with aboriginal ppl at all" when in fact, for al ong time now, the majority of indig aussies live in urban areas, same as the rest of the people here, and that there is nothing "less" aboriginal about someone that wears top notch clothes and works for the govt in twon then there is about an old bushie with a bifurcated penis and a bone thru his nose... talk to either of em, and youll find enough things in common, the cheekiness, the seeing thru the bullshit, the basic ability to "know" things without "being taught"...tendency to regard nature as a personal thing but not something organised for your personal amusement, all that... anyways... dont worry about what words you use, people are more interested in what you say wit hthem, than the fact you used them in the first place. Plenty of people use the 'right" words to say some fuckin terrible things!

[Ace]

Thanks for the kind words Vert - nice to see that I am wubbed I guess I'm quite interested in this topic so much because (aside from the huge marker in Australian history on Tuesday) recently my g/f's sister coupled together with an nice bloke of indigenous decent (white enough to be accidentally 'mis-classified', but black enough to have some great values, interesting stories and awesome fuzzy hair ). They have had a bub together (as have I and my g/f) so I guess in a distant way I am now related to an indigenous aussie. The sad thing is that they have copped a lot of ignorant b.s. from my g/f's other sister and moreso her hubbie (a pair that often call themselves 'bogan', 'redneck' and other stupid names for some reason not quite clear to me), yet they are nice, cooperative and friendly in his company. I havent seen any of them since before the speech, but I think it'd be interesting to see how it affected the different couples within the family and if it might help bridge the gap between them. I think it will certainly open some eyes, I know it has effected both myself and my g/f at the very least

See Xipe, quotes such as 'just peacefully hanging out munching goannas' are missed in shorter posts - the humor that is found in Vert's posts is just too valuable to be overlooked IMO

[mark80]

I had a talk with my mum, and she told me all this stuff about my heritage. I guess i was expericing anger because of the way people treat me, if no one knew i was aborginail then perhaps i wouldn't have people judge me, and all this talk about doing somehting special aka the apology for the aborginials just made me think that it was all going to happen again, like when my mum paid for tutor for me for maths pople thought i got it for free becuase i wa aborginial and they hated me for it.

I take back what i said out of anger and ignorance.

[Vertmorpheus]

Welcome back Mark.

Been gone for a while hey? It's hard to come home because it reminds us of things that should never have happened, that can't be undone, that can at best be learnt from and at worst be haunted by... which would be ok in a way, but its not like we even know what we're haunted by, specifically, in a lot of cases... just some deep dark residual shit to be found.

Someone told me once that the deeper and longer a shadow is, it just means the light behind it must be that much brighter, if you can reach it before losing your nerve. And its easy to lose nerve when youre thinking like a victim... think of yourself as a nearly vanquished equal, back from the brink instead. You think that a bunch of goons got off boats and just took the place over...no... many pitched battles, many savage victories of spears over guns and silence over the speed of horses... sadly it was always a numbers game and we all know the result now... but those that went before us didnt go down easily and we shouldn't either... otherwise, depending on how spiritually you view the world, you might just get to feeling that those that went before arent really happy with you either... keep things sweet between the living and the dead, the future and the past and everything else is a lot easier, somehow. Even when its harder, you just get harder in response but its like soil baking... the right kind of refreshment from the rain and its back to soft yielding impressionable earth again... if that makes any sense? Dynamism can be a very solid foundation for further efforts.

People can think what they want to think... at the end of the day the only thoughts and remarks we can't get away from are those that are inside our own heads.

Standing for something makes you an easier target then bending over for everything... fact of life... all anyone can try to do is educate and where that doesn't seem to work... ignore.

People will always make their dumbarse remarks, if you're trash it's "filthy coon" and if you're on par or in anyway "better" or "have more" than they do, it's "you musta scammed it somehow" OR it gets turned around into "well fuck the boongs up the road have a newer car than I do, whats all this discrimination business about?".

People are individuals, but their problems are rarely specific to them... a one by one approach in these matters would be the ideal but in terms of practicality we just have to put up with being lumped into the same box now n then... rather be thrown into the same pile than divided, analysed, rated, classified into more or less suitable, more or less offensive to someone elses sensibilities, etc.

The biggest weapon these days in the subtle war on Aboriginality... hell being a bit of a child of the soil full stop... is shame. Its a sick insidious force that makes people double and triple think everything they do and say and how they act and think... and as soon as you let it overrule your own thoughts, your own feelings about things... then the bastards have won and you might as well be buried in a gully on land formerly owned by a well regarded and established Aussie corporate dynasty... which would be ok if it was just "you" or "us"... but it undoes all the work and effort and hard fought battles that our predecessors on BOTH sides of the stories went thru. Before you know it youre a stranger in your own land, feel out of place in your own backyard... marginalised somehow when all you wanted was to be left in peace on your own little margin in the first place.

Again, welcome back to life.

VM