A.Colubrina snuff - no additives?

[strumf]

I was wandering if it is possible to get good effects by preparing a snuff with only powdered Anadenadenthera Colubrina seeds without using any additives. I would like to try avoiding the intake of lime as it appears quite harmful. I have read a few posts with Baking Soda but not sure if this is also harmful and whether it actually works. Some people suggested using glucose as that is the safest but not sure if that will produce the necessary reaction. Has anyone ever tried the snuff with no additives or has any information on alternative mixture that may be less harmful.

Why I really want to try the snuff is that I have had a few experiments smoking the A. Colubrina seeds and basically the main downfall is that I cannot get enough of the smoke down before I start feeling really sick (and often vomit). I have read some reports and its potential is to totally alter the reality but I can never quite succeed and usually end up with a much milder effect. I have struggled hard to have as much as about 3-5 seeds at once and that was full on but not the same as good wattle extract. Was I perhaps just a seed or two away or just misinformed of its large potential.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[tonic]

The reason it is different from say a wattle extract is that the alkaloid profile is different. You could try using ash if experimenting with vilca snuffs, where legal of course.

[apothecary]

You can use burnt snail shells or the ash of any bark that burns to a clean white ash instead of baking soda or lime.

You definitely need something.

As for vomiting/nausea this is one of the primary effects in unexperienced (intolerant) bufotenin users, you will feel several times worse from insufflation than smoking, aside from almost guaranteed nausea you may feel like you've been kicked in the face by a donkey.

[MORG]

You can use burnt snail shells

I found this funny. What an obscure ingredient.

To avoid searching out and destroying snails (I usually chuck 'em over the neighbour's fence ) maybe you could burn chalk?

[apothecary]

The ash of snail shells has been used as a freebasing agent for yopo/cohoba snuffs for centuries if not millenia.

[spacedracula]

I like the sound of the snail shells, they wouldnt sound out of place going into a witches cauldron haha.

[dqd]

I've heard of lightly roasting/flaming then peeling the seed before use... did you use the skin too? Have no 1st hand experience myself

[occidentalis]

egg shells would work in place of snail shells and might prove to be more accessible, especially if you bake a cake to go with your vilca.

[strumf]

I've heard of lightly roasting/flaming then peeling the seed before use... did you use the skin too? Have no 1st hand experience myself

Yeah that is the proceudre I take and no I never used the skin and I doubt that it would contain anything.

[strumf]

You can use burnt snail shells or the ash of any bark that burns to a clean white ash instead of baking soda or lime.

You definitely need something.

As for vomiting/nausea this is one of the primary effects in unexperienced (intolerant) bufotenin users, you will feel several times worse from insufflation than smoking, aside from almost guaranteed nausea you may feel like you've been kicked in the face by a donkey.

Thanks for the useful information. I have read some other related posts and it seems as it may be ok if smoked slowly with a few minutes in between each toke. Now with your indication of insufflation being several times worse, would it really be worth the difference in the good effects. I don't know if I have been misguided by a myth but apparently its potential is great even taking you into a fairy tale or total different space/dimension, and I thought it is the insufflation of a large amount that is necessary for this.

[apothecary]

Thanks for the useful information. I have read some other related posts and it seems as it may be ok if smoked slowly with a few minutes in between each toke. Now with your indication of insufflation being several times worse, would it really be worth the difference in the good effects. I don't know if I have been misguided by a myth but apparently its potential is great even taking you into a fairy tale or total different space/dimension, and I thought it is the insufflation of a large amount that is necessary for this.

You'd be best off using the search engine to gain more understanding.

[t st tantra]

ginger,herb or a little brug 4 nausea.

wait 4 the nausea to stop then start again.

i've seen a few reports saying the secret to snorting vilca etc is to start with just a pinch in each nostril .they say when that little bit of burning and nausea is over, your nose is numb and doesnt burn anymore and you can then take a full dose.

adding water lillies to a smoking mix can be interesting,powerful and strange.......split worlds[mirror,underwater,parrallel],insect/plant worlds[seeing different things from each eye],,robot world.

rev and i posted a few years back our first investigations into this area.

water lillies are said to be an ayahausca additive.

t s t .

[kadakuda]

in a pinch i once used that "Magic baking powder" stuff. worked pretty good. i honestly find smoking it worse than snorting it. the smoke kills my lungs and always leaves me gasping on the ground red faced and cursing. the snuff however just leaves me holding my nose and cursing, softer. its the snot drip down the back of the nose/throat i really find quite offensive!

[rahli]

I have read that burnt snail shell is converted into calcium oxide then combined with water to form calcium hydroxide. The lime is then mixed with the seed material coming into contact with bufotenine to form calcium bufotenate. Further exposure to carbon dioxide in the air converts the excess calcium hydroxide into calcium carbonate (limestone powder) which is a lot less caustic on the nasal passage.

Is there any reason why calcium carbonate (powdered limestone) can't be used as the initial additive or must it first be present as calcium oxide then/or calcium hydroxide for the calcium bufotenate to form?

[Monk]

Though I'm unsure of the validity of the whole "calcium bufotenate" thing, phenoxides tend to form with strong bases. Calcium carbonate doesn't really fit that definition so I doubt it's ability to form said compound. It's really a fairly unreactive compound compared to calcium hydroxide.

[rahli]

Though I'm unsure of the validity of the whole "calcium bufotenate" thing, phenoxides tend to form with strong bases. Calcium carbonate doesn't really fit that definition so I doubt it's ability to form said compound. It's really a fairly unreactive compound compared to calcium hydroxide.

cheers, thought there must be a reason for the burning of shells and limestone to form quick lime before adding it to snuffs.

[Mycot]

Never heard of calcium bufotenate, I doubt the compound exists. Adding alkaline materials (calcium oxide, ash, etc) to alkaloid containing plant materials (coca leaves, betel nut,pituri, etc) is a common practice. This would render the alkaloid into its freebase form probably enhancing absorbtion. Calcium oxide would be more alkaline than the carbonate.

[rahli]

Well you can't trust wiki but it gives you the general ideas to look further into. Thanks for your advice on the subject.

Here is the wiki text that lead me to believe that this compound existed -

"The bean is then ground with a mortar and pestle into a powder and mixed with a natural form of calcium hydroxide (lime) or calcium oxide (from certain types of ashes, calcined shells, etc.). This mix is then moistened to a consistency similar to bread dough, using a small amount of water. If calcium oxide is used, the water will react with it to form calcium hydroxide. Once moistened, it is kneaded into a ball for several minutes. If given enough time, calcium hydroxide will react with bufotenine and replace the hydrogen bond at the five position of bufotenine (5-HO-DMT) with calcium, forming Ca + 5-O-DMT, also known as calcium bufotenate (or calcium bufotenoxide). This is a common chemical reaction that occurs with all phenolic compounds when reacted with calcium hydroxide for expended periods of time"

Wiki - Anadenanthera peregrina

Edited November 26, 2007 by rahli

[platypii]

Never heard of calcium bufotenate, I doubt the compound exists.

It does, however there is a bit of doubt as to whther this form of preparation makes any difference. Its not a compound but a method of prepping the plant matter. Either way, be wary of anyone trying to sell you this stuff; in my knowledge, there re vendors out there who are really pushing this. iVarious pharmacalogically inclined people I know have said that calcium bufotenate is no better at delivering 5-Ho-DMT to the brain, and bypassing the stomach.

[teonanacatl]

bufo is phenolic and phenolic protons have pKa of aroun 10 so its not that silly that calcium bufotenate would form, infact as has been just shown its quite likely.

the whole snail shell thing is just making calcium oxide/hydroxide which is lime. best thing to do is use the calcium oxide/hydroxide then expose to water and air, this will convert it into calcium carbonate. Someone already mentioned that. Really if your worried about the lime being dangerous then go find another herb because the lime is the least of your worries.

[platypii]

. Someone already mentioned that. Really if your worried about the lime being dangerous then go find another herb because the lime is the least of your worries.

Lol- yeah, I'd be think the tryptamine goodies will certainly leave one somewhat slighty overwhelmed as to be able to think about lime and the consequences of ingesting it. I'd be more concerned about my face turning purple.... I gotta wonder why that is such a 'common' effect, it leads me towards thoughts of toxicity or at least danger....

I recently heard a bad bad report of a guy who rectally administered a largish amount of A.Col; I could only cringe.

I have read, and will not claim this as fact, but bufotenine freebase is highly emetic, and every attempt should be made to bypass the stomach, but I guess that seems evident. Which tribal group used vilca? Just a side query.

[teonanacatl]

yeah the elephant on the head is pretty common, so are aches and pains in muscles, i get them in my thighs.

Woah just looked on the wikipedia, purple faces and pain in thighs are commonly reported.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufotenine#Fa...kins_.281955.29

[Monk]

bufo is phenolic and phenolic protons have pKa of aroun 10 so its not that silly that calcium bufotenate would form, infact as has been just shown its quite likely.

It made sense to me when I read about it, but it's nice to hear someone with deeper chem knowledge confirm the possibility with more than just the usual, "I think it does form" or "no f'n way. That's stupid." Reliable sources tell me that a A.colubrina/CaOH paste that has been sitting wet for about 24 hrs. prior to drying, combusts like a much tamer beast than other methods provide. Combined with some harmel extract, it is said to be a pretty colorful combustible.

[phloom]

Which tribal group used vilca?

Vilca being; A.peregrina is widely used in the South American amazon according to 'One River'

Virola is evidently less common? with internet technology and the whitification of native tribes, I wonder how relevant these tribal use lineages are and will be in the near future,

Just a thought

[Monk]

Just to be clear, A. peregrina is called yopo while A. colubrina (and var. cebil) are refered to as vilca or wilca (among other names.) They grow and are used in entirely different areas. A. peregrina (yopo, cohoba, parica etc.) is from lives only in the tropics and is found in much of South America. A. colubrina (var. colubrina and cebil - vilca, wilca, cebil, angico etc.) grows further south in Northwestern Argentina. It is a borderline subtropical tree which makes a big difference in terms of cultivation.