rivea corymbosa experiences?

[kadakuda]

i have tested from a couple dozen sources over the years and have always found pleasantry between 100-200 seeds, never got sick in the past. but that night i thought i really wanted to see where ti took me. so i took all them, mostly fresh off the vine, blended them up in water and soaked for a bit. drank the water and held the blended guck in my cheeks for an hour then swallowed. i got super sick after 1 hours, so i went to bed and tried to sleep and ignore it. i woke up later and had that "oh fuck i am really sick whats going on?!?!?!" feeling and ended up beside/on/in and around the toilet for another 2 hours. gotta say it was the weirdest "mind fuck" ever, like a strong mushroom trip without the hallucinations.

it reminded me of a line my ADHD friend said when i took him to a remote beach and did mushrooms. with all the laughter about nothing, the only word that ever came out of his mouth, one time, was "Everything". that about sums it up. that word fits so perfectly, really....everything....

Edited May 5, 2009 by kadakuda

[Neoshaman]

full sized but immature ipomoea seed as i keep saying is mentally stimulant,would be interested in this aspect for hbwr and rc?

t s t .

A FOAF aquired some unripened seed still in the pod in order to gauge the effect seeds were removed from the pod given a light scrape then chewed whole this was basically to get an idea of the difference in negative side effects between ripened and unripened seeds.

4 Seeds were initially consumed chewed in the mouth after being crushed and mixed with honey

Comeon was extremely strong from approx 30min-3 hour mark no really viusual aspects though at 3.5 hours the effects seem to have levelled out to a nice euphoria not a very strongeffect was felt so he decided to consume 2 more seeds within 30 mins to an hour both auditory and strong oev and cev were becoming apparent unfortuneately so did the typical HBWR sleepiness as well , time distortion was ceratinly present also some stomach pain was experienced during first two hours of experience nothing major

FOAF also mention the cross tolerance to lucy was ridiculous 1 tab c onsumed the day after with 2 more seeds resulted innothing but sleepiness and a mild euphoria

FOAF advised the overall experience was far more visual and far less side effects then a typical HBWR experience

[kadakuda]

i was just reading some stuff on this and they tested to see if Ergines were from an outer fungus or not, and it showed they were not. they cleaned the seeds and tested which came back negative, the innards (i forget which parts) were where the ergines were kept. they also mentioned that in MG it seems they are created in the leaves of the plants, and i guess stored in the seeds?

[Neoshaman]

seems they are created in the leaves of the plants, and i guess stored in the seeds?

I've read articles onMG wine using flower infusions maybe the leaves are of more interest .... maybe heatless/slow drying and then infusion is an option did the study state the levels which are in the leaves ??? I wonder if this holds true for rivea aswell or HBWR could certainly eliminate the hassle of trying to get them to seed in colder climates if other parts are viable to use of course I would also be intrested to know what else is present in the leaf matter before biossays etc.

[t st tantra]

t said the leaves of some of these plant loosen the bowels considerably.

t s t .

[kadakuda]

the leaves are said to be the place of synthesis and then moved into the seeds. i would not say its set in stone, but it seems that way. they also say the Argeryia, however you spell it, DONT, but that I. violacea and T. corymbosa this seems to be the way....as well as some other Ipomoea's with the Ergoline fungi on the leaves.

it was interesting as they pointed towards possible still being the fungus helping the plant create these chemicals, likely on the leaves. the cleaned seeds still had ergolines present without any fungi in there. some neat experiments abut, but not enough. there was mention of trying to cultivate this fungus, which all failed, but mentioned that they seem to start growing (germinating?) on the newer growth. fascinating stuff

[t st tantra]

decided to try my suggestion of inoculating seedlings with soil from a mature plant.

its cooling down here but growth esp budding appeared to improve as did some blackening of leaves.noticable i think but not spectacular so far.....2 weeks.

t s t .

[Neoshaman]

the leaves are said to be the place of synthesis and then moved into the seeds. i would not say its set in stone, but it seems that way. they also say the Argeryia, however you spell it, DONT, but that I. violacea and T. corymbosa this seems to be the way....as well as some other Ipomoea's with the Ergoline fungi on the leaves.

Any info on stictocardia relating to leaves etc?? everyone forgets the poor old stictocardias when addressing these issues LMAO

[kadakuda]

here is a quote from the book. if its not allowed to copy so much, edit or let me know to edit.

Location and Origin of Ergoline Alkaloids

The sensational discovery that the seeds of certain higher plants show exactly the

same constituents which were already known from fungi in view of the uniqueness

of this find immediately led to the question, whether these ergoline alkaloids are

actually produced by plant tissue or by fungi or bacteria present in the seeds (Taber

and Heacock 1962). This was not inconceivable since seed-coat-borne fungi had

been well-known and fungi can infect the ovary like Claviceps spp. in grasses.

Indeed, fungi and bacteria were found to be present in the seed coat of Turbina

corymbosa but not in the embryo of surface-sterilized seeds. However, on the other

hand ergolines were found to be present in the embryo but not in the seed coat, in

the resinous layer adjacent to the seed coat, or in the membranes located centrally

in the seed. Both the hypocotyls and cotyledons contained ergolines. Claviceps spp.

were not detected in the seeds. From all these data the authors concluded: “It was

considered reasonably certain that the alkaloids are a true metabolic product of the

plant and not of an invading microbial parasite or contaminant” (Taber et al.

1963a). Furthermore, it had been claimed that callus and cell suspension cultures

of Ipomoea tricolor, Turbina corymbosa, and Argyreia nervosa, believed to be

sterile concerning microorganisms, have shown production of ergolines (Dobberstein

and Staba 1969). The results of these two reports have established for decades the

scientifically accepted opinion that ergolines are original convolvulaceous

metabolites.

Early studies again with T. corymbosa (Taber et al. 1963b) and Ipomoea tricolor

Cav. sub nom. I. rubro-caerulea Hook. (Gröger 1963) had shown that these

alkaloids are not only constituents of the seeds; they could also be detected in

the epigeal vegetative parts of these species but not in the roots. This could be

confirmed later for several other Ipomoea spp. (Table 4.1) and Stictocardia tiliifolia

(Table 4.5) but remarkably not for Argyreia spp. (Table 4.4) and T. abutiloides

(Table 4.5). Grafting experiments with, e.g., I. tricolor in 1973 showed that leaves

are the principal sites of ergoline alkaloid biosynthesis which are translocated afterwards

to the seeds where they are accumulated (Mockaitis et al. 1973). By this

study it has been proved that neither roots nor stems and seeds are the site of alkaloid

formation. Strangely enough, these results did not stimulate any experimental

242 4 Tryptophan-derived Alkaloids

study with the aim to find out if there are any fungal endophytes in ergoline-positive

Convolvulaceae spp. in the following decades.

Nevertheless, the evolutionary relationship of ergoline biosynthesis in fungi and

higher plants has been discussed over the years (e.g., Boyes-Korkis and Floss

1992). Theoretically there are three principal possibilities:

1. The genetic information has been developed twice independently in unrelated

taxa during evolution

2. It evolved only once and then has been passed from fungi to higher plants in a

horizontal gene transfer or – less probably – even vice versa (“biogenetic

engineering”)

3. Endophytic ergoline-producing fungi may be associated with higher plants

Taking into account the unusual and very complex biosynthesis of ergolines with

its numerous enzymatically catalyzed steps resulting in almost congruent alkaloid

patterns of such different types of organisms the first possibility seems to be rather

unlikely. Genetic comparison studies between ergoline-positive and -negative

convolvulaceous species, respectively, have not been published. Thus, there is no

evidence for the second possibility. However, the third possibility was discovered

in the 1970s for a non-convolvulaceous higher plant: Bacon et al. reported the first

conclusive evidence of the presence of an endophytic fungus, Epichloë typhina

(Fr.) Tul., in tall fescue, Festuca arundinacea Schreb. (Poaceae) (Bacon et al.

1977). This fungus has been later identified as Acremonium coenophialum

Morgan-Jones & Gams (Morgan-Jones and Gams 1982), meanwhile re-classified

to Neotyphodium coenophialum (Glenn et al. 1996). The new form genus

Neotyphodium is the name for the anamorphic, asexual state of the genus Epichloë.

Such Acremonium/Neotyphodium grass endophytes are taxonomically aligned with

the family Clavicipitaceae and consequently with the genus Claviceps but they live

or spend their entire life cycle within the aerial portion of their grass host (Bacon

and DeBatista 1991). Thus, it was not very surprising that ergoline alkaloids belong

to the major toxins associated with Acremonium/Neotyphodium-infected grasses.

All types of ergoline alkaloids described above for certain Convolvulaceae spp. are

also present here with lysergic acid α-hydroxyethylamide / ergine and the ergopeptine

ergovaline as the major components (Porter 1995). The structure of ergovaline

is very similar to ergosine (difference: R2 in Figs. 4.2/4.6 = isopropyl instead of

isobutyl). Such “ergoline-accompanied” infections with Acremonium/Neotyphodium

endophytes are not limited to Festuca spp.: Stipa robusta Scribn., sleepygrass

(Petrosky et al. 1992), and Lolium perenne L., perennial ryegrass (Porter 1995), are

further examples among many others.

The so-called graminicolous Clavicipitaceae are obligate parasites of grasses

and sedges, e.g., species of Claviceps Tul., Balansia Speg., Epichloë (Fr.)

Tul. The grass endophytes are all members of the family Clavicipitaceae (White

1997), asymptomatic, systemic fungi that occur intercellularly within the leaves,

stems, and reproductive organs of grasses. These microorganisms have dramatic

effects on the physiology, ecology, and reproductive biology of their host plants.

Through the production of toxic alkaloids, endophytic fungi defend their hosts

4.2 Ergolines 243

against a wide range of insect and mammalian herbivores (Clay 1990). Poisoning

of domestic livestock had spurred a great deal of research on endophytic fungi in

pasture grasses (see below). This led to the early discovery of the causal link

between endophytes and toxins like ergolines in grasses. It could be confirmed that

these alkaloids are also formed in saprophytic submerged cultures of the fungi in

the absence of host tissues.

From Cenchrus echinatus L., sandbur grass, infected with the fungus Balansia

obtecta Diehl, the unusual ergopeptine alkaloid ergobalansine (Fig. 4.6) has been

isolated (Powell et al. 1990) which could also be discovered in a non-poaceous

higher plant. This surprising find prompted the authors to title their report

“Ergobalansine, a proline-free peptide-type alkaloid of the fungal genus Balansia,

is a constituent of Ipomoea asarifolia” (Jenett-Siems et al. 1994).

Taking into account all these results, the question arises if – in contrast to the

traditional scientific view – Convolvulaceae of the tribe Ipomoeeae are playing

perhaps the host role for ergoline-producing fungi within the tricolpate angiosperms

which is given by the Poaceae within the monocots. This could be supported indirectly

by the again very surprising discovery of loline alkaloids in the epigeal

vegetative parts and roots of Argyreia mollis (Burm. f.) Choisy (Tofern et al. 1999;

see Sect. 5.2.3) which accumulates ergoline alkaloids in the seeds (Table 4.4).

Fascinatingly sometimes these lolines even occur – just like in case of A. mollis –

together with ergoline alkaloids in endophyte-infected grasses, e.g., Festuca

arundinacea infected with Acremonium/Neotyphodium coenophalium. Therefore,

the authors of the report on Argyreia mollis came to the cautious conclusion

“Although it seems unlikely that endophytic fungi are involved in loline and

ergoline formation in Argyreia, we cannot exclude this possibility by sure”.

Amazingly enough, the first study in which it has been checked if there is any

evidence for the presence of ergoline-producing endophytic fungi in the leaves, has

not been published until 30 years after the discovery that the leaves are the site of

alkaloid biosynthesis. Recently, it has been reported that the treatment of plants

cultivated from seeds of exactly the same provenance of Ipomoea asarifolia, which

had led to the surprising identification of ergobalansine (Jenett-Siems et al. 1994),

with two fungicides eliminated the production of alkaloids (Kucht et al. 2004). This

find strongly suggested that ergolines are metabolic products of an associated fungus

rather than of the plant itself just like in certain grasses. Microscopic examination

of the upper leaf surface after staining with aniline blue or wheat germ

agglutinin revealed fungal hyphae closely associated with secretory glands in a very

characteristic way. These hyphae were present when alkaloids were detectable;

those plants treated with certain fungicides did not show hyphae and alkaloids,

respectively. From these results the authors concluded that this particular, for the

first not yet identified plant-associated fungus may be involved in the biosynthesis

of ergoline alkaloids.

The results of this study contrasted starkly with those of another one already

mentioned above, which had been published in the late 1960s (Dobberstein and Staba

1969). Therefore, Kucht et al. established again callus and cell suspension cultures of

the three ergoline-positive convolvulaceous species applied in the study of 1969.

244 4 Tryptophan-derived Alkaloids

Even with the very sensitive analytical method they used (capillary electrophoresis)

they were not able to detect any trace of ergoline alkaloids in such cultures. They

criticized the analytical procedures of the former study (non-specifity of van Urk’s

reagent, problematics of TLC comparison) and reported that they also occasionally

observed van-Urk-positive spots. But these have never been ergolines.

Further studies of the same group (Steiner et al. 2006) elucidated the following

facts:

● Isolation of a new epibiotic fungus, designated IasaF13, from the upper leaf

surface of Ipomoea asarifolia beside 12 endophytic fungi

● Characterization of IasaF13 as the only clavicipitaceous fungus out of all 13

fungi

● IasaF13 groups together with known ergoline-producing clavicipitaceous fungi

such as Claviceps spp. and Balansia spp. in phylogenetic trees based on 18S

rDNA and ITS (internal transcribed spacer) data sets

● IasaF13 turned out to be the only fungus responsible for the ergoline alkaloid

accumulation in both in vitro and in vivo cultivation of I. asarifolia

● IasaF13 was seed transmitted

● IasaF13 carried the gene (dmaW) responsible for the prenylation of tryptophan,

the first pathway-specific step of ergoline alkaloid biosynthesis; dmaW

sequences showed very high similarity to a Balansia obtecta (Clavicipitaceae)

homologue

● Attempts to grow IasaF13 on 15 different agar media designed for fungal

growth were even unsuccessful, when the media contained leaf homogenates of

I. asarifolia

● The inability was demonstrated to establish IasaF13 on I. asarifolia spraying

onto or injecting into the leaves; even attachment of leaf surfaces from a normal

plant and a plant devoid of fungi failed

● IasaF13 was spread to the shoot of the plant during growth

An epibiotic fungus isolated from another convolvulaceous species, Turbina

corymbosa, showed sequences of 18S rDNA and ITS which were 100% identical

to those of the one from I. asarifolia. This was also roughly true for the alkaloid

profile. There are no doubts that the nonculturable epibiotic clavicipitaceous fungus

IasaF13 is responsible for the production of ergoline alkaloids at least in these two

convolvulaceous species. Future investigations involving further ergoline-positive

convolvulaceous species are necessary to clarify whether it can be generalized that

IasaF13-identical or -similar plant-associated fungi are responsible for the production

of such alkaloids.

The results of Kucht et al. (2004) and Steiner et al. (2006) provide a possible

explanation for an early study on the transformation of elymoclavine by Ipomoea

tricolor Cav. sub nom. I. rubro-caerulea Hook. (Gröger 1963). This alkaloid,

14C-labelled, has been applied to living leaves in feeding experiments. However,

no ergolines of the main biosynthetic route (simple lysergic acid amides or

ergopeptines) have been found. Elymoclavine was rapidly degraded to unknown

non-ergoline products. Only small amounts of penniclavine, a product which is

4.2 Ergolines 245

formed from elymoclavine by unspecific peroxidases (see above), could be

detected. The applied alkaloid probably did not meet the location of the fungal

endophyte ergoline-producing system. Otherwise products of the main ergoline

biosynthetic route should have been found.

Ergolines Accumulated “by” Convolvulaceae vs Poaceae. Though future studies

are necessary on further ergoline-positive convolvulaceous species, there is a

striking, apparent comparability concerning the origin of ergoline alkaloids as constituents

of certain monocots (e.g., Poaceae) and certain tricolpate angiosperms

(Convolvulaceae). In case of grasses the endophytic fungus is transmitted only

through seed of an already infected mother plant and, thus, is an inherent, maternally

transmitted component of a joint plant-fungus lineage (symbiotum) (Schardl

1996; Schardl et al. 2004 and references therein). During flowering endophytes

grow into ovules and become incorporated into seeds. They do not occur in roots

although they can be found in rhizomes and stolons of their hosts (Clay 1990). All

this also seems to be true for infected Convolvulaceae species. In contrast to the

Poaceae (endophytic fungi, e.g., certain Balansia spp. or epiphytic fungi, e.g.,

Claviceps spp.) the epiphytic fungus of I. asarifolia was not culturable without its

host. This shows that the fungus (and with it the production of ergolines) “…..

depends on the plant for growth and vegetative reproduction and that there is a

highly specific interaction between both organisms. It is remarkable that the fungus

never spread to I. asarifolia plants devoid of fungus and alkaloids although the

plant carrying the fungus was kept in the immediate neighbourhood in the same

green house.” Though it might be assumed for both families that certain primary

metabolites synthesized by the host may contribute to the fungal synthesis of ergoline

alkaloids, two unique ergolines discovered in I. hildebrandtii (cycloclavine)

and I. tricolor (chanoclavine-I acid), respectively, might be an evidence for

contributions even in the secondary metabolism (assumed that these two species

also have been fungus-associated). To the best of the author’s knowledge such

“exotic” ergolines are not known from the Poaceae.

From grasses it is well known that there are infected and non-infected populations,

e.g., of Festuca arundinacea, which are defined scientifically in publications

in abbreviated form as EI (= endophyte-infected) or E+ (= endophyte is present) vs

EF (= endophyte free) or E- (= endophyte is not present), respectively. To date it is

an unresolved issue whether there are also infected as well as uninfected species or

populations of species in the ergoline-positive Ipomoeeae. If this would be the case

this could explain perhaps – at least in some cases – the existence of contradictory

reports on the occurrence of ergoline alkaloids in certain Ipomoea spp. (Table 4.2).

[Alchemica]

I've read articles onMG wine using flower infusions maybe the leaves are of more interest .... maybe heatless/slow drying and then infusion is an option did the study state the levels which are in the leaves ??? I wonder if this holds true for rivea aswell...

ERGOT-TYPE ALKALOIDS IN VEGETATIVE TISSUE OF RIVEA CORYMBOSA

The ergot alkaloids, ergine and isoergine, were found in the leaf and stem but not in the root of Rivea corymbosa, which had been grown in a greenhouse. The amount per plant increased with time reaching a maxima of 0.027 and O.012 per cent dry weight in the leaf and stem, respectively, after approximately 9 months’ growth.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_lin...d=12&id=616

The concentration of ergot and clavine alkaloids in the leaves (0.027% dry weight) is not as high as that of the seeds

which contain approximately 0.06 per cent on a fresh weight basis.

Molecular characterization of a seed transmitted clavicipitaceous fungus occurring on dicotyledoneous plants (Convolvulaceae)

This article explains that the ergoline (aka ergine, LSA or LAA) alkaloids present in plants from the Convolvulaceae family (more specifically those from the Ipomoea genera) are produced by a clavicipitaceous fungus that lives in symbiosis with them. That fungus lives on the surface of these plants and passes to next generations by incorporating it's spores on the plant's seeds.

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_lin...=12&id=6522

IDENTIFICATION OF ERGOLINE ALKALOIDS IN THE GENUS ARGYREIA AND RELATED GENERA AND THEIR CHEMOTAXONOMIC IMPLICATIONS IN THE CONVOLVULACEAE

The results of the identification of 21 ergoline alkaloids of 14 species of Argyreia

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/local_lin...d=12&id=617

Edited May 28, 2009 by The Alchemist

[mutant]

Excellent links thanks <___base_url___>/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

[santiago]

21 fresh rivea corymbosa seeds

grinded via mortar & pestle

water was boiled (theoretically to reduce things like chlorine) and the cooled.

once cooled a small mouthful perhaps 20/30lms was swished around mouth to soak available saliva, grinded rivea (coarse) was then added into glass with mouthful of saliva liquid, another small mouthful was added so perhaps 40/50 mls total.

theory behind saliva is loose, perhaps have read it as a traditional method of south american people who form basis for historical studies, perhaps the acids in pre digestive fluids help to break down atoms therefore causing a basic chemical reaction.

this weak water saliva mixture was then further cooled for 10 minutes in freezer, once again based on loose theory CWE or a quicken version of it is hoped for.

removed from freezer a 20th of a fresh lemon is cut and squeezed into liquid, a further kind of mild acidic reaction is hoped for and taste should be masked somewhat. a knife is used to mix the lot for a minute. so far the whole process has been roughly 40 minutes.

the mixture is quickly gulped and it tastes like bitter dirt and seeds, one small dry reach is had and the aftertaste is 5/10 in terms of badness so a small spoon of seafood cocktail sauce is eaten and this works well.

1 min to 1 hour no obvious effects

1 hour 1 minute to 2 hours feel slightly happy, no visuals OEV/CEV

2 hours 1 minute to 3 hours no notable effects, music is activated and no differences noted, small gardening tasks done with no obvious subtle effects

3 hours 1 minute to 4 hours decided to drink beer and tastes metallic, much harder than usual to drink and have turned on computer, the main effect so far seems to be computer screen very hard to focus on as per normal, blurry and distant, headache is starting to form at rear base of scull where joining neck, dinner is eaten no problem with nil effect on appetite.

4 hours 1 minute to 5 hours most small effects have diminished and back to baseline, not long after decided to go to bed and could hear noises better than normal and took about an hout to go to sleep, no dreams or CE noted.

next morning woke up as normal, no effects noted however a very quick bout of singular diarrhea was experienced...no suspect food intake was taken, in fact hardly anything was ingested and it seems that the body was expelling the rivea, thats how it felt...perhaps the body rejecting the seed coatings would be my theory, it was a very unusual motion.

in conclusion i dont think the initial mixing with saliva or lemon or cold boiled water makes much difference, however in the limited experiences with rivea (10 seeds) the small effects in this experience were off baseline most.

for some reason i have a feeling to mix with watered down vegemite water next, no basis to that just a hunch....possibly will report back, some other things going against this report would be a loud busy noisy enviroment.....a quite setting and introspection may be preffered with smoother results, perhaps.

with this particular test bunch of seeds 40 may be the next step, however in the spirit of harm reduction perhaps 30 may be safer.

overall 2/10

[planthelper]

nice writte up, santiago!

i specialy like that you try to work with the most basic (shamanic) chemical tools.

i more and more think that basic shamanic chems like, rainwater, lime or ashes, saliva or lemonjuice are very effective, and there usage is paramount in many traditional preperations.

temperature is aswell a major tool which is not promoted enough.

some nasty alks or other stuff might not be a soluble in cold water, than the wanted ones.

cold can make some portions fall out of the (water) solution.

strainer or filters are important aswell, and sometimes even with water extractions, different fractions can be observed (for example tst heimia work shows that, and maybe my "rim effect" when fermenting sceletium).

i speculate, that some activas, will rather group with there own kind, when evaporation (or even settling) takes place.

i make even a claim that a bushman's stile tlc is possible, as i have observed it by accident.

[mutant]

bushman's stile tlc

?????

huh whats that?

santiago, thanks for sharing that. we need more reports like this. good job.

you got a photo of the plant? age of the plant?

[santiago]

?????

huh whats that?

santiago, thanks for sharing that. we need more reports like this. good job.

you got a photo of the plant? age of the plant?

 

no mutant, aquired the seeds...however i do have a 3 foot speciman growing from last seasons seeds, it is about a year old and three foot, over autumn/winter here in perth it loved to run as creeper, but i transplanted it into poor soil with 70% sun...it was 3C cels for neary 2 months on poor soil and the little vine thingy turned into usable dry rope, ahhh ...no tropi cs her in perth, its been compared to a dry cold spain.