2012

[hairyplant]

I am interested in peoples opinions on this topic. Are the McKenna and Mayan theories showing themselves to be vaild? I think we all know that a time of change is well upon us, but what about the 21/23 Dec 2012 end (or omega point of change!) date, will this represent the ultimate point or peak in our evolution?

I spent much of last year traveling in latin america, and was lucky enough to visit many mayan sites and absorb myself in what is left (and the small amount of what is known) of this amazing, advanced but ancient culture. With many theories existing in regards to the origins of such mayan creations as the pyramid of Kukulkan at Chichen Itza, and similarly this cultures advanced knowledge of astrology and to predict future astronomical events, one can only wonder how these things were really calculated, but assume that psychedelics played a major role.

In peoples (or their gnomes ) experiences with psychedelics, have there been moments of clarity on this topic?

I suppose one would only need to take a quick look around at the world we live in to see that yes, we are very close to a time in the age of human beings when the exponential rise in population and technologies will end, or at least drastically change.

Personally I believe that it is that close (what ever [/u]it may be), and 6 more years does not seem like too bad an estimate for things to finally boil over on a global scale, however unprovable it may be. If anything this knowledge helps me to make the most out of life. Whats your opinion?

[Hagakure]

im skeptical when it comes to anything with spirits, astrology etc.

what i do know is that artificial intelligence is coming.

and thats going to change everything.

if you are looking for something that is going to ramp up at a speed we cant fathom then evolving neural networks is it IMHO.

[MORG]

will this represent the ultimate point or peak in our evolution?

What's this meant to mean?

I don't know any details about these theories. But I'm a very skeptical person, so you're probably not after the sort of replies you'd get from me on these matters...

[faustus]

what i do know is that artificial intelligence is coming.

and thats going to change everything.

yeah, this is my 2012. under the influence of ketamine my gnome has a tendency to believe he's communicating with an AI from the future. although communication is riveting, my gnome usually dismisses the experiences as him having read too much john lilly.

a very good book on this topic is "the singularity is near: when humans transcend biology" by ray kurzweil

the technological singularity is predicted to occur circa 2030, i'm more confident in the likelihood of this than any spiritual development in 6 years time. IMHO when this point is reached, evolution won't end, it'll only speed up... we're entering a point in human history where we'll either completely destroy ourselves or attain (material) utopia. it'll be interesting to see how people cope with this rapid change.

[hairyplant]

What's this meant to mean?

I don't know any details about these theories. But I'm a very skeptical person, so you're probably not after the sort of replies you'd get from me on these matters...

No way, i am after other peoples opinions, dont hold back!

Many people have theorised that this date will mark the beginning of a new epoch in the history of the world and mankind, it being written into the Mayan calendars, and by other philosophers. Hence, a change in the current evolutionary progression of life on earth.

Hagakure makes a good point imo, in that the future of inteligence as we know it (or beyond or understandings), may not exist in our species.

I am a stong believer in science and scientific method, hence I base the majority of my feelings on this topic by looking at the world in which I live and as I said 2012 doesnt seem like a bad estimate to me for somekind of global change (whateva it may be)...

[indigo264nm]

All I know is that energy is building... I feel like I'm a child of a new age, and think all the problems I identify in my life is because I am not cut from the mold of my environment.

Can't you feel some momentum happening??? Some period of change???

Well whether you can feel it or not... all I know is that I'm sure there will be a fucking awesome doof organised for 2012.

[-YT-]

I feel that some kind of global change is possible in the near future, what it may be who knows one can only speculate on the subject, i am prone to blind faith lol from personal experience and my heritage. I try not to live in the future too much as it subtracts from the experience of living in the here and now and making the most of each day as it comes. What are the benefits of AI? is it a bright future

[Legba]

i dont think humankind is evolving. degrading perhaps. im waiting until 2013 before commiting to any conclusions. good point re "be here now", yt.

[AndyAmine.]

I jst want 2012 to arrive so I can meet all McKenna's time traveling tourists, traveling back in time to see the creation of time travel.. jst think about all the future ethno/entheobotanical discoveries they could share with us! ^_^

[transDiMenTional]

Well whether you can feel it or not... all I know is that I'm sure there will be a fucking awesome doof organised for 2012.

Tru dat!!

[puffingfish]

Can't you feel some momentum happening??? Some period of change???

I have often pondered this as I definately feel like we are building towards something on a global level. I think about it in terms of a global kharma in that what we are doing to our planet earth is not only having effects now but will continue to untill breakpoint is reached. So it just depends if we get our shit together and reach Outer Space before this time bomb explodes!

Seriously though, this planets resources simply cannot sustain our already massive population and things are only going to get worse with the proliferation of nuclear energy and our inability to learn from our mistakes.

As for the Mayan calendar, whether or not this will reach breakpoint in 2012 or not is yet to be seen but there are many real signs which make me believe it may not just be astrological mumbo jumbo.

On the other hand though, people have been predicting the end of the world for years and the very same feeling was felt by the hippies in the 60's in regards to nuclear energy etc I have spoken to a few people who were activists at that time who truely believed the end was nigh. Although 'the big end' hasn't happened yet maybe we are still in that part of the cycle. The 60's was only 4 decades ago, maybe what they feared then will come to fruition in 2012.

I know I am being pessimistic and that a more positive dimentional shift may take place but judging from the way we treat our planet, in my opinion it's going to get worse before it gets better...

Edited April 6, 2006 by puffingfish

[MORG]

I tend to take a different slant.

Without making changes fast, yes the world will turn into an ever more hostile place to live. But I don't think we'll see this immediate catastrophic shift, doomsday scenario. While the Earth might be a very dynamic system, and one open to our interference within that system, I tend to think that changes will still happen on a timescale too broad for us to detect. It'll be a gradual change by our perception, but one that is rapid on a global scale. I just don't think the Earth is the fragile thing it is often made out to be.

We might result in a some changes in climate and the biota on the surface of this great sphere, but ultimately we'll be but a blip on the entire life of the planet. We come, causing some changes and we'll move on leaving the place to re-equilibrate and new things will happen.

The wild-card is that we humans are extraordinarily adaptable creatures through our ability to manipulate the environment. Where's the limit??? We already live in every corner of this globe. And that brings me to my second point.

The talk of us reaching a 'peak' of evolution I think is too simplistic. An evolutionary 'peak' can only be considered that in terms of the current environment. When the environment changes, we might not be so well suited, but adaptation occurs over time aiming for that 'peak' again. And evolution itself never stops. Every day we see examples of differential reproduction changing the gene pool of the next generation. Look what modern medicine has done to enable some individuals to reproduce who never were able in the past. Look at the differential reproductive rates of the third world and the developed countries.

Life = Evolution

[botanika]

I think we are always building towards something. I dont think we've ever been a stagnant civilised race without symbols of hope (or armegedon) for the future. Societies ebb and flow like everything else in nature. Currently we are experiencing new ebb and flows from global living. It wasn't that long ago most of the world was still 'undiscovered'. There are less unknown areas of the world so to create a desirable mystery in our lives, 2012 stories (and UFO stories etc) become quite appealing. We like talking about what we dont know, probably because we're not supposed to know everything. Thats what pushes us forward.

The whole human tapestry in which we live is a result of our ancestors choices and our current choices in relation to the environment which we live. Our thoughts have created the world and our thoughts will produce something on 2012 because we have chosen to include that date in our stories and language. If you are thinking that change will happen around that time you have already started programming your brain for some sort of change, or at least be open to the idea of change. There's probably a lot of positive things that could come out of that. New Agers want to catch your attention and mystical mayan clander dates do that - A calander date might not create the change in dimensions often talked about but it does get people thinking more, sparking real change on a smaller tangible level.

Extreme changes to our biology such as a mass conscioussness expansion to some other form of intelligence or dimension, especially on a particular date, are just not part of our behavioural history so I am skeptical of that - I really dont think that kind of biology change can happen so quickly. Its never happened before because of a 'date' or some sort of planetary alignment. The biggest changes to us have occured because of environmental factors or because of how we choose to live collectively or enforced as a regime. Those choices are our big brains in action and we've had a big brain for a lot longer than we've been munching mushrooms. I dont discount the importance of ethnogens in our evolution and I appluad McKenna for being so bold as to raise such possibilities, but environmental influences, procreation instincts and seeking new territories and food sources are more likely to have played far bigger roles IMHO.

Dolphins and whales have big brains and communicate most of the time for mating and to inform each other where food is. Not because they have discovered visionary plants that have helped them evolve. We all share lucky successful mammalian genetics.

If people in society feel like 'momentum' is gathering towards something its probably a true reflection of societies momentum. Life is fast these days relative to 5, 10, 30 years ago. Momentum is relative. Societies have cycles. One could spectulate that our modern society is currently 'flooded' with information and choices, no direction known. 2012 becomes a recognisable new age sign post people start to think might offer a direction... but I dont think looking for directions is anything out of the ordinary.

The Mayans were expert astronomers. Their interest in the stars was certainly mystical but importantly it was also very functional in helping them survive, plant crops, understand the solices. The Mayan's recognised certain dates of importance, some relating to galactic alignments - but from what I've read in science, those alignments, while rare, aint going to make much of an impact down here on earth. Things like magnetic pole reversals, supervolcanoes, meteor strikes, famine, environmental disasters, our own overpopulated lives and war do however make serious impacts.

I like the ideas that promote ethneogens as ways of remembering who we are, and where we live. The value of a sacred balance with nature. We come from the earth, we need the earth. I lean more towards the theory 'its all in our head' rather than external entities communicating with us. Its certainly possible but so is our own mind communicating with us in a myriad of currently poorly understood ways - teaching us something from a genetic past, revealing instincts in that genetic past or reminding us of our place in nature through visionary stories and dreams.

2012 is a bit like xmas - a date that has some mystical symbology that will end up commercialised. Better enjoy it and hit the doof with indigo sunrise. Im sure thats what the mayans would be doing if they were still around - having a big crazyhigh party!!

Sorry - I took a long time to say 'Im skeptical' of any profound change

[Rev]

In peoples (or their gnomes newimprovedwinkonclear.gif ) experiences with psychedelics, have there been moments of clarity on this topic?

none whatsoever

Through Science and hostory i know the wordl is unsustainable

Through pschedelics i come to terms with this and feel confidment enough to realy on good sense and providence to get me through whatever is ahead

i see nothing of the future but a blip in cosmic and human time

whate else would you expect to see in a 100 000+ year hostory with a stage of 100 years?

i feel the now is nothing but a temporary abberation in our species development. i feel the next 100 000 years wont be much different to the first after this is over.

[hairyplant]

Yes, we are all eternal!!!

Although this is a realisation I first had on psychadelics, and through these experiences I am guaranteed to be reasured of this, I find comfort in the general scientific premise: that energy can not be made or destroyed, it can only change forms. Eventually we will all find that what lies within our neurons is totally more powerful than what our muscle can produce (or fuck up). However doomed or not our society may be, my senses tell me in everyday or altered states, that this is irrelevant, and my energy will continue on.

I truely believe that the tides of change and the peak of our age is firmly upon us, whether it shows it self to be definite in 2012, 2021.5, or 2057.31459265, it is irrelevant, I am happy to be the energy that I am and will always be. Damm though, i was tripped out by the extents of Mayan technology for their time, and how realistic their beliefs seemed, by their attempts to comprehend higher forces. I mean, intentional near death experiences to greater understand and connect with the gods (death being part of life, self mutilation to get closer and better understand the gods), the use of ethnogens as another tool, and precise calculations and understanding of the movement of the millions of tiny little light sources they saw at night. Respect!

Thanks for your comments, respect to you all, you wonderful little energies you!

Edited April 7, 2006 by hairyplant

[Endrogen]

I don't see how the mayan calender could forsee any huge change, but i do believe in terrence mckennas' theory of novelty.

And they both used the same method of channeling information and came to the same conclusion... 2012.

My bet on what it would be which could cause such a huge shift would be This

[hairyplant]

Please note, my last comment was written after 3/4 of a bottle of red wine, lol...

Not that I don't stand by it!!!!! hehe...

[Agamemnon]

Please note, my last comment was written after 3/4 of a bottle of red wine, lol...

Not that I don't stand by it!!!!! hehe...

What brand was it Hairy, I might get a bottle myself! LOL!

[Auxin]

Has anyone considered the rate at which peyote is becomming endangered by overharvesting? Perhaps native tribes rocketing into hyperspace every now and then allowed for trans-temporal psychic communications that the ancient myans tapped into and in 2012 the majority of tribes will be forced to drastically reduce their use of that entheogen in a desperate attempt to keep it from going extinct in the wild, thus cutting off the communication lines with the psychic shamen of antiquity that engeneered that calander...

Or maby the ancient mayans figured that IF they survived to 2012 they could add to the calander then, it'd be a good point to take into account unforseen astronomical occurances.

(I lean toward the latter )

[indigo264nm]

^^^I like those concepts.

I figure I may as well contribute my thought that has me believing that things will drastically change sometime in the future, and it's all to do with eras and movement in time. I really got into this when I was studying W.B. Yeats, who wrote a book to alone describe his symbols that he had created.

There is the concept of the gyre which is used to show the movement of mans evolution and movement through periods of time, and he created the geometric symbols based on his immense spiritual and ritual practices with the Golden Dawn. Civilisation falls apart and from the ashes a new one is born. These move in roughly 2000 year cycles. Think about the impact of Jesus and Christianity on our world today. More and more people are starting to move away from Christianity which means something big is building. It all kinda fits to me.

Edit: Thought I'd chuck in a poem by him as well.

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre

The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst

Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;

Surely the Second Coming is at hand.

The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out

When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi

Troubles my sight; somewhere in sands of the desert

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,

A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,

Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it

Reel shadows of indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again; but now I know

That twenty centuries of stony sleep

Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,

Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

Edited April 9, 2006 by -=IndigoSunrise=-

[chilli]

All I know is that energy is building... I feel like I'm a child of a new age, and think all the problems I identify in my life is because I am not cut from the mold of my environment.

Can't you feel some momentum happening??? Some period of change???

Yeah, sounds like the kind of stuff naive kids were talking about back in the sixties. Not sure I like a lot of the changes that have happenned since then. I tend to agree with whoever said they think things are degrading, not getting better. Shit, look around you. It's nothing unusual though, every great empire has its ascent and plateau, and then descends into disorder. The empire of the West is no different. The eventual collapse of the US will probably trigger it.

Some corny cliche like "those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it" comes to mind...

[indigo264nm]

Oh yes, things are definitely going to get worse before they get better. I just want to be one of the people who have set themselves up for the new era after the decent in the west.

I'm making the choice to evolve ;).

[hairyplant]

What brand was it Hairy, I might get a bottle myself! LOL!

Cheap $12 bottle of Yalumba shiraz, fueled with good company!

Kind of topical: US planning to bomb Iran... http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...931-601,00.html

Pour me another drink and spark that up now!

[SaBReT00tH]

checkout http://www.diagnosis2012.co.uk/1.htm for 48 more pieces of info on why something will happen in 2012, then again John Titor was from the year 2036 so the world must've survived. Who is John Titor?? (http://www.johntitor.com/Pages/Story.html). Personally I don't know what to believe, or want to choose something to believe in what will happen in 2012. First there was the 2000 millenium bug which the US government instigated as the beginning means of fear, before blowing up the world trade centre and trying to further instigate public fear which didn't previously exist using the word 'terrorist', then there was another classic one also seen on the prophecyseekers website and told in Adelaide by a guy who claimed to be a descendant of the narajevo indians or something. That prophecy was that in 2004 (march I think it was), 3 meteors would strike causing massive tsunamis. One would be just SE of SA and adelaide would be flooded and everyone killed. Of course it didn't happen, and that's just another example, in addition to the people who interpreted the 2000 apocalypse nostradamus theory of how people should not panic or fear these theories.

[MORG]

Cheap $12 bottle of Yalumba shiraz, fueled with good company!

Speaking of which, I do believe the Yalumba Shiraz Viognier is one of the best cheap tipples on the market.

^_^