might b a stupid qustion but...

[psycho0]

if we got enough people interested would it b possible for us to start our own 'church' using some sort of ethnobotanical sacrement?

if so could we push a bit further for an illegal sacrament?

thanx

aaron

[Skulking Lurker]

I'm already praying for you, aaron.

:cool:

[Torsten]

this topic comes up once or twice a year. basically the problem is that we do not have religious freedoms enshrined the way some other countries do. Sure, those freedoms apply to established churches, but the problem will be establishing a new one.

The best option is to push for the recognition of a church that has already been accepted in other countries, eg UDV and Santo Daime.

[woof woof woof]

UVD or SANTO DAIME,... yeah ,.. true T! But I was not completely happy about the was they conducted their service the time I attended. It was very positive in a was,... but had this sect like thing about it.

I'd much rather pratice in nature with only a few people and leave out the direct christianity influence.

Then again , after giving it a though,.. that would indeed be the way to go like T said. When you are established, find the members that you agree with and split off,...start your own movement.

maybe establish the "Dont worry B Caapi church!"

[Torsten]

please don't misunderstand me. I do not like SD or UDV. The last thing this world needs is for the last independent rituals to be usurped by a christian blend sect.

However, we face a dilemma. These two institutions are the most likely to set precedent in the WOD. And that is the extent of my support for them. Let's help them change the law so that we can regain some of our freedoms.

[mescalito]

I was looking into this a few months ago and reckon the Human Rights and Equal Oppurtunities Commissionwould be the people to contact over this.

" The ICCPR provides in article 18 that:

1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion(7). This right shall include freedom to have or adopt a religion or belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.

2. No one shall be subject to coercion which shall impair his freedom to have or adopt a religion of his belief or choice.

3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.(8)

4. The States Parties to the present Covenant undertake to have respect for the liberty of parents and, when applicable, legal guardians to ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions.

"

Number 1 looks good but number 3 may be a bit dicey

[NatureBoy]

This "Part 3" seems to be the stumbling block on legal sacramental use of entheogens.... if only because the terms "public safety", "order", "health", or "morals" are so ambiguous...

what EXACTLY does "order" mean in this context?

look up order in the dictionary and the meaning that most fits (from my Collins Gem Dictionary) is:

(4)arrangement, method, plan

and if that IS 'it' then what does that mean-- im not sure--

Part 3.

Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.(.

[psycho0]

could someonme direct me to sites where i can research this a bit mjore pleaase?

thanx

aaron

[delysid]

 

quote:

---

Originally posted by NatureBoy:

 

Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.(

.

---

(just clawing for definition here..)

"Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs may be subject only to such limitation as are described by law"

Meaning that if it was a gun club which believes in gun toting and target practices with the occasionaly BBQ, this does not qualify as a religion or belief structure.

This is a wild example, I guess what I'm asking is does the law have to agree that your "religion" is indeed a belief structure, not just a boys club of sorts. (?)

"..and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health, or morals or the fundamental rights or freedoms of others"

Not only can it not just be a boys club, but the beliefs and behaviour within said religion must protect the rights of believers and non-believers alike. (same reason turkey isnt allowed into the UN because of its majority religious beliefs regarding the treatment of women defy the above statement)

In the Gun club example, public safety is at issue, so it would not qualify as a religion.

In the entheogen example, the law would argue that its not it the interst of our health to include it as a sacrament.

(and they would remain oblivious to the fact that they had never tried said sacrament, and therefore couldnt possibly know what they were talking about)

[rkundalini]

I'm far from a lawyer but I did try to make some arguments along these lines using UN declarations of human rights, when Salvia divinorum was originally up for illegalization ... I posted some of it here or on EBA, try a search. I mainly posted it for comment and to try to rustle together a group for further action but no-one was really interested.

[The Dude]

No one was interested because it would be hopeless - but I'm just an apathetic shmuck.

I mean really once a substance or plant becomes illegal - a bunch of hippies/druggies/stoners (insert other stereotypical label) winging about it won't change anything.

IMO It's silly for any plant to be illegal.

[Torsten]

My interpretation si pretty much in line with delysid's and hence I think it is a pretty hopeless case.

But that doesn't mean we have to roll over and play dead. All we need is more mainstream lobby groups doing the lobbying for us. Hence I recently engaged the horticulture industry in a matter relating to tobacco species and their restrictions under current law. After almost 2 years of dealing with the ATO an customs things are suddenly moving a hell of a lot faster thanks to some more mainstream pressure.

Next stop is the beta carbolines in body building products. After that I am going straight to the NSW attourney general dept to challenge the GHB analogs law (and hence the whole analogs clause) - an analog is being widely sold in herbal shops and I expect strong involuntary backing from the conservative herbalism lobby group.

You have to show straight people that these laws can randomly attack their own interests in really silly ways. They quickly lose their anti-drug stance when it comes to egotistical reasons.

[Thelema]

HEY, its not all bad.

thanks to certain individuals, the decision to schedule Kratom was delayed/filibustered for almost a year, giving the oz ethno community greater access to this now illegal plant.

[Torsten]

oh yes, this cannot be stressed enough. The more difficult and tedious the scheduling process becomes for the authorities, the more reluctant they will become. They are not well prepared for complaints as they are generally not challenged all that often. What might be 5 minutes for each of us will make a mountain of work for the desk monkeys.

[-YT-]

So Torsten Is there anything us blue collar ethno-heads can do???? Has anyone heard any news of the case fight angainst the decision to illegalise Sally.D? If not is ther eeven a case i really wanna do something about this but where to start??? :confused:

[Torsten]

I think the sally fight is now in the domain of scientific research and there is bugger all we can do to help other than to support the researchers and to increse the amount of research done on this species.

The crucial time is BEFORE any scheduling takes place. Even if this simply means delaying the inevitable. As was seen in the case of kratom it was these extra few months that propelled kratom into the limelight and meant a good saturation of people growing their own and sharing cuttings. if kratom would have been scheduled at the time it was proposed I think it would have pretty much fallen off the radar here.

So yeah, next time someone posts an update about what the TGA is up to it is important to kick into gear immediately and in large numbers.

[william longsholong]

i seen on one of john saffrons shows about religion i cant remember the name of it but it was on sbs a few months ago on it he went to tennessee to try some peyote as part of the native american church. do you think anyone can just convert to this religion or would you have to be native American?

[apothecary]

John Safran vs God.

Peyote was...episode...4 I think. I have the DVD

You don't have to be a native american to be part of the "Peyote Way" religion.

It has nothing to do with the NAC.

I think it's retarded personally, and not much more than an excuse to do some mescaline.

[ 31. March 2005, 13:00: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[simon_marklar]

www.thc-ministry.org

its won court cases in hawaii, which is an american state. they now have religious cannibis use in hawii.

the church has international standing.

it wont answer my questions about the "public health" clause any further than to say "if they think we are not a religion then they must challenge the religion in the international court." and "because jesus used pot and it is documented in the bible you will be fine"

yes im a member, no i dont want to be the first person to go to court over it.

btw, im reading a book at the moment "magic mushrooms in religion and alchemy" that puts up a very solid case for hindu and christian religions being mushroom worhip. i wonder...

[2b]

It's actually Christ based , and was a wierd blend of native American values and the crap the missionries taught when they tried to convert the 'infidel heathen savages' in days gone by. Granted those on the show were using it as a loophole , but there are real practitioners out there (somewhere).

[caludia]

 

quote:

---

I'm far from a lawyer

---

oh come now Dr R, u are just being modest i mean you deal with scientifically verifiable physical assertions every day, aimed at confirming or disproving various mathematical conceptions of the very nature of space and time.... the nature of the fabric & curvature of space-time and the possibility of subtle waves propagating through this structure...... the very idea of spacetime itself as the medium for wave propagation...

Just like a lawyer.

[smogs]

it sounds (and makes sense) that it would be much easier to establish a reason for doing certain practises within an already standing religion that to try and start a new religion...

also can someone please explain to my why the "chirch of scientology" isnt a cult?

for those unfmailar the teachings go something along the lines of... the human race is really inhabited by spirits from anotehr planet who were brought to earth 6 billion years ago (i thought they have dated earth to be aorund 4.5billion years?) because their planet was overpopulated and dying.

Then they were placed at the base of a large volcano and a H-bomb was detonated inside it... freeing their spirits to enter human "shells"

They use a special device they call the e-meter (and is really an electrogalvinomitor... measures skin conductivitiy.. ie sweat) and do a free personality test to find out about your alien spirit... because you have no memory of this.

Also i should mention that the founder was a sci-fi writer!

[Amulte]

 

quote:

---

i seen on one of john saffrons shows about religion i cant remember the name of it but it was on sbs a few months ago on it he went to tennessee to try some peyote as part of the native american church. do you think anyone can just convert to this religion or would you have to be native American?

 

---

um, it was Texas dude. the church is http://www.peyoteway.org/ and ive spoken to the before about seting up an Australian chapter, they want the founder to spend two years with em. i would be there now if i had the cash!

go the web site if you havn't been http://www.peyoteway.org/

[ 31. March 2005, 15:04: Message edited by: Amulte ]

[apothecary]

Heh.

[2b]

I got caught up in scientology in the 80's via a guy i work for, he paid for business courses (run by the scientologists) for me then, as i was so good at it they moved me across to the church stuff. I could go on and on about how weird or wonderful it was but i think we all get the drift.In the end the god i worship isn't short of cash (thank you Bono) and these guys are full on about it (cash that is) so at that point i knew it was over.