MDMA - aint nothing bad!

[spiders]

Ive read all these studies and ive heard all this bullshit about people who drop eckies all the time having mental blanks, or that eckies cause depression in some people.

But in my experience I really cant see any bad side. Ive never got depressed from the come down - im usually feeling refreshed and invigorated, and no matter how much i do - recently only small doses, in the past continual use, ive never had any side effects that i can pick at all.

Is it all bullshit?

[Trip Dr]

Well you must be one lucky fella. Ive definatly had my share of come downs, although you can never really be sure what was in the pill so that would play a part im sure. I've read taking certain suppliments also helps with comedowns. I havnt had mental blanks, but have felt less that invigorated the next day.

Just my 2c.

[Ashoka]

I have had problems with getting rid of body heat the next day. I.e. having to leave a crowded room for the outside to get my body temperature down. This was following a 99% pure 120mg MDMA experience. No mental blanks or depression, but I only used MDMA once a year in that time period.

[incognito]

u r lucky! ill never have another one,my last was two years ago,,i could never do a comedown like that again,,only time in my life i eva felt like necking myself!!!though god knows what shit they put in the pills they get here,,its normally the crap that gets rejected from sydney i believe..i dont reckon id try anything unnatural eva again!! :cool:

[apothecary]

No LSD-25 for you!

[incognito]

d'oh!

[hebrew]

it has been many years since i have done mdma and from what i can remember i would have to agree with you bluemeanie. sure there would sometimes be a comedown but that never really worried me.

have you seen those ads on tv they are so full of shit, the guy goes to the dentist and apparently the ginding of his teeth has caused serious problems. you have to laugh it is so absurd,

we should have ads that show a guy at the dentist and the dentist is saying all that mcdonalds, chocolate, beer and tobacco plus everything else you put in your mouth is causing serious health issues, but i doubt we will ever see that ad

damn fuckers dont know shit and are using scare tactics to manipulate the population instead of trying to provide safer and responsible drug use

[smogs]

never tryed so cant really comment... but i can imagine depression being a possible afetr effect just because seratonin transmitters worn out and tired.

but same thing with any thing in your body.... stare at something thats red under a bright light for a few mins then look at something white and you will see green

[faustus]

think the point of the dentist saying that it's a 'serious health problem' is it's juxtaposition with the next scene where the person's dying in the ER. love the one they had a while ago "marijuana, it mightn't kill you but it'll turn you into a dickhead"

i've had moderate long term depression and anxiety, taken pills about 5x. each time the immediate comedown has involved strong feelings of guilt and shame regarding my empathy towards strangers... feel like a phoney etc, and depression for the next few weeks. tried loading with 5HTP which helps a bit, but in the end MDMA can be the catalyst that pushes vulnerable people over the edge. hopefully won't ever take it again though i don't regret it for one sec

[Torsten]

MDMA was one of my staple foods for about a decade. While I received minimal damage from it, I have seen plenty of casualties. The problem here is whether e's cause the problem, bring it to the surface, or simple exacerbate it. I think it's the latter two. However, that implies that if you take e and you already have marginal serotonin levels, you could well end up with dpression after a few pills. Now, in that case did MDMA cause the problem or exacerbate it? In my opinion it only made it worse, ie brought the escalation forward.

No doubt e is heavily involved in aggravating depression. If you don't have a lot of serotonin in the first place then wasting it like that is obviously going to cause problems. And MDMA is simply taking serotonin wastage to excess. If you body can cope with it then fine. If not then you're screwed.

I very much doubt drugs have inhibited my learning ability. In fact, I only started being really interested in the world around me after I started hallucinogens. My life before drugs was shaped by mediocrity and disinterest, but that changed with my first few acid trips. Mind you, drug were only a trigger, because I certainly don't need any of them these days to keep up the same momentum. I don't want to lump all drugs into one basket, because I think you can do a lot of acid (as in frequently) and not cause any problems. But taking powders is a different story.

One of the biggest problems faced by researchers of this topic is that most folks use several drugs throughout their youth. eg, I took hallucinogens for a few years and was very much against pills and powders because of their damaging effects. Then I relaxed a little and got into mdma for quite a few years. Then towards the end of my e-phase I also consumed a fair bit of other amphetamines. After a couple of years of that I felt burnt out, started having all sorts of health problems and pretty much quit drugs. Now, most health professionals would argue that it was my decade of decadence that caused the problems. personally I think that's crap as these problems were certainly not caused by LSD or mushrooms in my early years. It is questionable whether the 2000 or so pills caused any damage, cos I had no negative effects from the first 1000 or so. But I KNOW that even a few weeks of meth left me worn out and damaged.

My greatest concern is in relation to dopamine. This is depleted by MDMA, and a lack of it causes short temper, edginess and irritability. I've certainly developed these, but not for at least 2 years after I stopped taking drugs. It could just be my lifestyle. It's impossible to tell really, but even if I've got that minor sideeffect, it was worth it

As for comedowns - well shit, I get them every time. Some pretty nasty too. Raving weekends are very taxing in many ways and I wouldn't be human if I didn't feel shit for at least a few hours after such a weekend. Is it worth it? Yep, most times

[nabraxas]

well put T. alot ov the stuff about exacerbating or producing applies to all drugs really.

& in the case ov MDMA i'd say producing mental blanks or whatever--in the long term, was unrealistic--though maybe when you're actually on a good one

i have heard talk ov neuro toxicity through taking large or repeated doses, --through the uptake ov "bad" serotonin, or something.

recommendations to take an SSRI towards the end ov the experience to reduce this risk.

does this sound likely? could part ov the comedown (& IMHO the chill out room ov a heavy drug using rave at 7am resembles a hospital ward ), be caused by neurotoxicity?

would neurotoxicity be like a hangover?

it would go away?

[ 28. April 2005, 01:31: Message edited by: nabraxas ]

[Fenris]

I know at least half a dozen now practicing doctors who took pills to enjoy the short time they had on weekends in between all that learning. Even with the volume of information they had to retain, the pills did not prevent them from successfully completing their medical course. And now as doctors they still love to party.

It wasn't just doctors but lawyers and engineers as well. Drugs certainly didn't prevent them from gaining a good education or a good job in a respectable field.

Shit I even had a friend who fried himself on too many drugs years ago and had a mental breakdown for a short period. He then went on to complete his PHD in Biochemistry and is a normal & sober member of society.

[caludia]

Torsten:

My greatest concern is in relation to dopamine. This is depleted by MDMA, and a lack of it causes short temper, edginess and irritability.

which prescription psychiatric meds aim to deal with low dopamine levels? out of interest...

[Darklight]

Back in the day, a long time ago... I had hidjus comedowns. Depending on what was going on in my life, they could be negligible or harrowing for up to four days.

And in the latter stages they were negated to a fair degree by being gentle on myself for a few days. Good food, good company and a total presceheduled lack of critical decision making or urgent meetings became a wonderful, positive group ritual after a weekend party and was integral to its planning. And the selective use of OTC amino acids made a shitload of difference as well- glutamine, tyrosine, tryptophan.

In the earlier stages I'd have bad nasty cartoon visuals for hours coming off LSD making me unable to sleep and making me a touch angst ridden, tedious repetitive visuals on mushrooms making me unable to sleep but merely agitated, the usual draining comedowns from speed, and emotional guilt overload from e's. Once I started on the amino acid I realised that a lot of this was under my control, and I started looking for ways to reduce the bad effects further.

Eventually I ended up settling for tryptamines, which give me so little trouble on the descent, many of which are short acting and so well suited to my disposition. These days on the very very rare occasions I imbibe I stick to the gentler legal stuff: I have other priorities at this point. Drugs are great, and one of the things that makes them great is they aren't compulsary!

Yes for many people the issue of conscious augmentation means dealing with possible negative consequences afterwards- shit, so does alcohol, so does caffeine and you so rarely hear ads which discuss these wholly in the negative, especially from the purveyors of fine legal compounds. So why does it come as a surprise to the government that people are willing to risk and navigate possible negative consequences in the pursuit of a good time? That risk navigation is what enables us to plan, to love, to hope, to celebrate, to dare- rather than accept a lifelong stretch wrapped in approved govvy cottonwool, never risking anything at all?

I'll get off my soapbox now, I'm sure this is all coals to Newcastle

[ 28. April 2005, 04:25: Message edited by: Darklight ]

[incognito]

must say i have witnessed it sink more of my friends than it has helped to swim.

[simon_marklar]

i find it really funny how the ads only show the negative sides of drugs.

like, why the fuck would people do them if they only produced bad results? are we that masochistic? i think not.

i can see it now -

kid to friend :"oh i wanna sit in a chair and grind my teeth all night!"

friend: "lets have an eccy then!"

kid: "no wait, lets have 5!"

it really leaves me dumbfounded that people look at those ads and dont ask themselves the above question. just asking that one question, i think, would be enough to bring the whole campain down.

but noooooo we cant think for ourselves say the anti drug brigade...

[simon_marklar]

jono:

must say i have witnessed it sink more of my friends than it has helped to swim.

i think your friend might of forgotten the golden rule - "everything in moderation, including moderation"

%simon

[Tryptameanie]

I have used MDMA only a few times, but experienced no comedown other than mild tiredness, and in fact had a long-lasting psychedelic-like afterglow.

Actually, the first time I tried it, it stopped a severe bout of depression in it's tracks and made me feel great,loving and connected to others for weeks afterwards.

I suspect that often people unfairly attribute their mood the morning after to a direct effect of the drug, when actually sleep-deprivation, physical tiredness, dehydration, alcohol use, having to go back to work/study etc may have

more to do with it.

 

quote:

---

which prescription psychiatric meds aim to deal with low dopamine levels? out of interest...

 

---

Pharma companies have tended to stay away from dopaminergics because of their association with addiction and (shock horror) pleasure and euphoria (coke and amphets are dopaminergic).

However, the drugs used to treat parkinson's (caused by a loss of dopaminergic neurons)include l-dopa (a precursor of dopamine which is biotransformed in the brain) and amantadine, a dopamine agonist.

Also, the antidepressant/nicotine-withdrawal-aid bupropion inhibits the reuptake of dopamine as well as norepinephrine. It sounds like quite a good drug, and interestingly can apparently reverse the anti-sexual effects of seretonergic antideppressants.

Unfortunately it's not on the PBS so costs (as I recall, could be wrong) $70 for 14 tablets.

I would have liked to give it a go as an AD but couldn't really afford it on Austudy.

[Darklight]

Tryptameanie:

I suspect that often people unfairly attribute their mood the morning after to a direct effect of the drug, when actually sleep-deprivation, physical tiredness, dehydration, alcohol use, having to go back to work/study etc may have

more to do with it.

What he said. Blaming the drugs is socailly acceptable, easier, and takes the onus of the individual to look at all aspects of their behaviour. It's as dodgy ( or the same thing really ) as saying " Oh, it was the alcohol, forget I said it " every time one fucks up on alcohol.

I'm not saying drugs have no negative impact, but as an experiment, try planning a mild, gentle, fun comedown, and then for the sake of contrast next time schedule a last minute meeting at work and a tedious argument with a whinging ex-, then see if you notice a difference.

IMO planning a nice descent is as important a part of the experience as deciding what to take, where to buy it, and who to take it with. As with the legal drug alcohol, these are all choices you make consciously or unconsciously. If you can't manage to create the right environment overall, how can you expect a positive experience?

[apothecary]

Definitely a combination of things!

The most important question in my eyes is simple:

What the fuck is in the pills?

How can they blame MDMA/MDA, even with pill-testing websites and the like, that's only a tiny percent of the ecstacty community that knows what's going into their pills!

Who are these studies getting their info off? Clearly the users. Who are the users getting their info off?

*light goes on*

If the government would make pill testing kits readily available just like those drink spiking things, I think 2 things would happen.

1. People would stop buying shitty pills!

Research suddenly becomes a lot more valid, they can ask people doing surveys or whatever "do you test your pills?" and then collate better results!

2. The quality in general of pills would have to go up. User goes to dealer, tests pill, pill is shit, user doesn't buy, dealer doesn't buy more off the supplier. Supplier can only sell more when their pills don't suck!

Second part of the combo.

Anything you do to escape reality on a frequent basis is going to cause depression when you're in reality.

Simple indicator. If you're doing multiple doses to get the same effect you used to off one dose, then you're probably popping too many pills.

No shit dropping E is going to cause depression in some cases? Everything causes depression. Lack of RAIN can cause depression (read up on negative ions)!

[planthelper]

QUOTE]which prescription psychiatric meds aim to deal with low dopamine levels? out of interest... [/QB]

madopar

edit: but it's for parkinsons not psychiatric..

[ 28. April 2005, 08:15: Message edited by: planthelper ]

[Rev]

moderate to sub-psychoactive doses (1-4g cubes, 0.5-2.5g pans)of shrooms taken on the tail end of MDMA (or acid) considerably clean up the gritty comedown.

It also can help with the second 1/2 of the MDMA journey when the serotonin is all but gone and all teh love is gone. shrooms bring it back but in a more thorough and universal context.

shrooms also clean up some of the inebriation ive had from MDMA.

In return both MDMA and Acid take away shrooms sleepy/yawny edge.

ill even go so far as to say that i can totally negate the comedown excepting the tiredness and soreness from exertion.

[spiders]

The only real comedowns ive ever had were when i was pissed before i consumed something - say acid or something like that, and as that wears of the nasty alcohol hangover starts creeping in and making me feel like shit, but i cant sleep because of the acid. its not psycholocally bad, its more physical illness.

I did have one sorta nasty comedown on acid where I got caught up on a cycle of thoughts for a day or so, but i got stoned and that killed that.

The 2c-t-2 (that dreaded monster!) was nasty the whole way through so the comedown was a relief in many ways...

Other than that, i just tend to screw my way through acid comedowns or sleep and I simply dont get anything from MDMA other than feeling like ive just done something wonderfully profound and that my life is now completely back on track. As someone said above, if a person is feeling a little bit down or moderately depressed, MDMA seems to kill that in its tracks and leave a person feeling refreshed and normal again. I mean i do feel tired for a few days and probably cant think as clearly, but thats ok with my job because no one notices.

Shrooms and 2cb dont give many any comedown - i just get tired and frazzled so i go to bed and sleep and feel a little under par the next day.

My girlfriend does get bad comedowns from MDMA and what she does is dose again, and although tolerance plays an issue here, when she starts to wind-down the second time she doesnt seem to get the same ill effects.

[spiders]

Hey Torsten - with the irritability, norepinedrine uptake issues can also cause this, speaking from experience (my levels are five times higher than normal if i stand for too long).

[Amulte]

Schism.

The subject topic works.