MythBuster-Buster: "Plants can't feel" they say

[ghosty]

hahha, informative and humerous..nice

[OPP]

I remember watching something about scientists measuring electrical impulses in a plant. They spiked when a leaf was cut or burnt with a lighter.

Had a quick search but .ouldn't find anything.

[tipz]

they document it in this national geographic channel OPP

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUZZkz70syE

( edit - the rest of the doco is not too bad )

Edited June 12, 2012 by tipz

[pete34]

G,day Thunderdeal and others on this thread

i know most people dunno, thats why i mention it, before you just ride it off as fantasy, humans think only they can travel space, most people think we are (the only humans) in the universe, science say other microscopic life MIGHT exist on other planets (Might), its just they cant say things for fear of ridicule.fear is good for nothin

for energy to be needed you need mass, many types of seeds dont have much mass, natural forces provide the small amount of energy needed, spores also can leave the atmosphere, to have a damaging impact on land (mass) is also needed

the gravity affect a planet has on a spore and many types of seed is negligible

animals/insects/seeds smaller than a mouse can fall and live as its mass/size, wind drag, dosnt allow it to fall through wind/atmosphere fast enough to kill it, i had a friend who had a kitten fall from 15 stories and it walked away, updrafts slowed it enough to live, it was known as The Ghost after that eh eh

The universe has many soon to be discovered or long known secrets to reveal

science's calculation of phi is wrong, hint its hidden in the pyramids

man is not from the ape, skulls from apes where sanded to make it seem true, fame being the desire. Ask to see the skulls they wont show them as modern technology can detect the sanding

many cures for cancer have been KNOWN for hundreds of years

we know there are advanced mammals but claim no advanced plants, there are advanced plants here on earth

Some waste residue left by prehistoric atomic blasts may be found in

Monument Valley, Arizona, the Bakaa Valley in Lebanon, most of the West Australian Desert, and northwest of

Cuenca, Ecuador, and there are more... Death Valley and Fire Valley near the city of Las Vegas is another witness to the past and timeless atomic insanity of the Earth human being. eastern slopes of the Andes a few dozen miles northeast of Cuenca, Ecuador. Sodom and Gomorra

science dosnt see this either and its not that hard to detect: there are particles escaping every nuclear reactor that build up on the dark side of the planet and follow the darkness, ozone holes fluctuate from this, these particles just zip straight through any reactor wall

you are meant to live 1000 years, we dont even mature until 70, the aging and aggression genes where tinkered with in our past, the beings described in ancient greek texts lived, the gene for aging will be fixed soon, the animals/beings will be recreated

people as tall as 36 feet have lived on earth

do you really think Asian and Caucasian and American Indian et al evolved so fast from Africa

there are things that live in space, to have life evolve you mainly need a stable environment

there are beings called rods who visit earth in our dimension/time

google: ufo rods

plants give off ultraviolet light humans cant detect but insects and animals can

all the nuclear reactors on the planet can be shut down (meltdown) for years from (one) solar storm, fukushima was just power couldnt be provided to cooling systems, large solar storms would wipe out circuits at the manufacturing plants also e.g. generator manufacture. We havnt had them long but better learn soon

cold fusion is real google: Rossi cold fusion, he is releasing product soon

there is no god equation, you have 2 the micro (quantum) and macro

our universe is one of trillions

pride in science is a problem and then governments have secret science and main stream science and also money is involved

dont let my words create anger or disbelief its no logic then, its not what i want, (i open minds man), 777Plato and his mates meditated on things and used logic NOT Belief or someone or some institution told him so777

science has progressed far in all matters but for 1 critical one for our survival, Spirit.

The Spirit is half of the equation but its hard for science to prove Spirit so it lacks Spirit in all matters

with meditation we access The Creation, the Akashic records are true, ALL thoughts are magnetic energy

The greatest thing anyone can do is help his fellow man thats what i do, i know i will succeed because so it is

we only work with half of science with NO Spirit knowledge:

here are a few mind/eye openers people wont know and i know you will realise are true, you know all things have an opposite right,

then why dont we here about below from science:

there is an opposite to black holes

there is an opposite to suns: black suns that shine darkness!

there are opposites to explosions, with many repercussions for most science especially energy production

i could tell ya some things that would turn many of you grey or mad fast but i dont, not unless i know you can handle it

that reminds me the peace symbol we use is upside down

Since Napoleons time Times are changing faster and faster, why.

Thunderdeal i know you are into science/spirit, please consider pondering the things that stand out for you, i always ponder then ask The Creation and my Spirit to release me from confusion.

An idea occurs later if i dont expect one or try hard. Also neutral to slight positive thinking helps.

i know what i say is not for everyone or sounds far fetched and i know i must respect that, but try and be open minded to things with logic, be neutral positive

Salome

Peter

[stavroski]

i think it was Mckenna who said in an interveiw when he was out here promoting his book on Scott that "who gives a damn if a plant responds to fucking bach or mozart or whatever, they EAT sunlight.for crying out loud" paraphrased, but isn't that enough. they EAT fucking sunlight!!!

[Darklight]

Heh heh... I often have this weird vision of a bunch of plants communicating with each other, wondering if animals know how to think.

I mean, we're basically parasitic on them and we have to scuttle around a lot to get our daily requirements. How on earth would we find time to develop higher order skills?

All this anthropocentric stuff about animals being unable to communicate, plants that don't feel pain or function as a part of a complex social group is so antiquated. It's becoming more and more acceptable to say " We just don't know how they do it- yet "

[ThunderIdeal]

pete, i enjoy your posts. i hate to seem like i'm following you around and pointing out where a statement you have made doesn't match up with a fairly solid consensus view. your posts are basically confident statements with nothing to back them up, but i have a lot of similar thoughts. reality is pretty groovy and i want to hear more about your views on it.

[goneski]

I don't see how 'responding to light', etc are 'feeling'.

Plants lack a nervous system. Their responses are purely cellular and chemical.

If you're going to anthropomorphise plants -- where do you draw the line?

Edited June 13, 2012 by SYNeR

[waterboy 2.0]

Pretty much how the nervous system works....

[goneski]

It's an extreme over-simplification of the nervous system to say that's "pretty much" how the nervous system works. Where do you draw the line, then?

Somebody better inform all the vegans and vegeterians out there... Who's up for cannibalism?

Personally, I take 'feeling' as referring to conscious/sentient beings who are able to 'feel' certain inputs/stimuli at an infinitely larger degree of complexity.

I think any sensible person would. Otherwise you're talking about some insane level of reductionism (zomg! everything is physics!!11 we are all one!!) which

achieves nothing and is far from insightful.

Before the conversation can begin, you need to reach some kind of (sensible) consensus as to what 'feeling' is; which is another discussion in itself.

Edited June 13, 2012 by SYNeR

[waterboy 2.0]

you may need to spend some time with plants then....

The nervous system is powered by cellular and chemical reactions (to make you happy SYNer ). It just a more complex system than the tropisms and hormonal reponses made by plants (or microbe or fungi as other such examples)

My view is vegetarianism is "murder" just as equal, just no blood on your hands..... Its a living thing and you kill it....

EDIT - My twisted point of view which I will add is based on my indigenous background...so call me simple if you like

Edited June 13, 2012 by waterboy

[pete34]

G'day Darklight

good post love, instead of thinking We just don't know how they do it- yet

think this: i wonder how they do it

Ponder/meditate on it

i ran into this today: what appears similar to the plant kingdom... our brain and nervous system look somewhat like the anatomy of a plant. If you held it out the brain looks similar to the dicotyledons of a bean and the brain stem and nerves; the stem and roots

yes even ants communicate all sorts of ways even chemical

its ok to harvest plants/animals though for needs, just not the degenerate killing we do to all life.

hey my iboga seeds 2 out of the ground 1 trying to get out of its coat and the others nothing yet but i removed seed coat from some more they should also do well,will keep you updated, i took a few pics but need to find the usb cable

G'day Thunderdeal

My thoughts:

i dont think you follow me around and i wouldnt mind if you/people did, i like to give you some things to think about

re: doesn't match up with a fairly solid consensus view

All important discoveries didnt match up with a fairly solid consensus view,

You mean SCIENCE atm ;-) eh eh

most important discoveries in the past where made by people not institutionalised as they dont know of cant or consensus, they didnt have boundaries

i forgot to mention the opposite to a black hole, it repels instead of attracts

i like this post, it wasnt a beast just a big dude who looked different than us, he wanted to enlighten

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=37055

we are here to evolve, DNA and Spirit

we can change our DNA and Spirit with thoughts/words easily

science says 90% of DNA is not needed, see why or google:science says 90% of DNA is not needed

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2011/12/12/scientists-prove-dna-can-be-reprogrammed-by-words-and-frequencies/

When it comes to Spirit you cant prove everything but the proof is in the pudding.

do these you will feel it, humans need meditation,correct meditation method

http://ca.figu.org/Meditation.html

When it comes to Spirit you cant prove everything but the proof is in the pudding.

when you goto bed say this in your mind: (i ask my Spirit to remember my dreams when i wake up.)

when waking from sleep think over what you where dreaming about, Wright it down

just quickly i will provide proof for some but we need to think also so just more info for others

phi: figure it out, the pyramids have many maths answers in its design

im not a that good at maths so it wont be me eh eh but google: whats up with phi

to see students who know something is up

skulls: demand tests on the skulls

cancer: google; MMS1 and MMS2

the big pharma companies would go bust so they make false claims, biggest killer in usa big pharma, ITS ABOUT MONEY

moringa oleifera powder also cures diabetes

big pharma get fucked!!!

Advanced plants: hint, one is an Acacia, its not DMT i refer too either but sentient life abilities, close observation

waste residue left by prehistoric atomic blasts may be found in:

Monument Valley, Arizona, the Bakaa Valley in Lebanon, most of the West Australian Desert, and northwest of

Cuenca, Ecuador, and there are more... Death Valley and Fire Valley near the city of Las Vegas is another witness to the past and timeless atomic insanity of the Earth human being. eastern slopes of the Andes a few dozen miles northeast of Cuenca, Ecuador. Sodom and Gomorra

i know there is a lot of junk on the net, the trick is knowing whats what

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_ancient_atomic.htm

re:

you are meant to live 1000 years, we dont even mature until 70, the aging and aggression genes where tinkered with in our past, the beings described in ancient greek texts lived, the gene for aging will be fixed soon, the animals/beings will be recreated

recent gene technology has discovered life extensions to 300 years google it, our next life will be 300, this one 150,ancient texts from over the world talk of long life and giants,giant skeletons/tools are found all over the earth, humans and pigs are already reality for war and for when the industrial military complex wants to say they are invading et's

the aggression gene has been found, google

also notice most people act 14 until about 70

re:

do you really think Asian and Caucasian and American Indian et al evolved so fast from Africa

DNA and mitochondria dna tells the story and blood groups + -

look at cultures and the history they told of their past, Japan or i like Hopi

re:

there are things that live in space, to have life evolve you mainly need a stable environment

its hard to believe as we think i cant live in space there is no air and its so hot/cold etc...

so the entire material universe as old and unimaginably big as it is is deemed sterile but for earth eh eh science has no proof so its all sterile, most life is not anything like us and evolves in any type of atmosphere even acidic and in space. Trillions of galaxies

not to mention the many dimensions and time variances all are different universes also

re:

there are beings called rods who visit earth in our dimension/time

google: ufo rods

they are harmless, after we live billions of lives we and other sentient beings evolve to spiritual energy bodies

plenty of people find it easy to get film of them

re:

plants give off ultraviolet light humans cant detect but insects and animals can

science starting to find hints with birds.

not known a snail can tell what plant to put the effort into getting there or it might starve or poison itself

re:

all the nuclear reactors on the planet can be shut down (meltdown) for years from (one) solar storm,fukushima was just power couldnt be provided to cooling systems, large solar storms would wipe out circuits at the manufacturing plants also e.g. generator manufacture. We havnt had reactors/electricity long but better learn soon

Easy to figure that out once its brought to mind

re:

cold fusion is real google: Rossi cold fusion, he is releasing product soon

the scientist debunking it all along will loose trillions,(trillions) in funding and JOB or are working for the secret gov who already has cold fusion decades ago

re:

there is no god equation, you have 2 the micro (quantum) and macro

you have small and large its only natural they be separate laws

re:

our universe is one of trillions

maths proves this, google

while i think of it, humans need to walk/be on the grass 20 mins a day, it feels good for many reasons

ALL thoughts are magnetic energy

there is no proof for spirit learning so science is stunted from lack of Spirit knowledge

i will point the way there is no proof for spirit learning but YOU WILL feel it

its something that happens to all sentient beings, its going to happen

i have nothing to gain financially from anything i say and never will, (money has always come my way without trying)

i say it from concern for my brothers and sisters

i have no affiliation with anyone, i work with computers,love to garden and enlighten (its my forte), cant wait until spring

got some seeds today Chenopodium Capitatum

health tips, must try, buy on ebay

spirulina is needed now the way plants are grown in same location with chemicals = little vitamins

also get moringa powder

milk makes men think like a girl and soft body

soy is bad unless fermented

it wasnt long ago the earth was flat and the centre of the universe.

Ancient civilizations knew about our solar system, galactic cycles and a lot more.

There are trillions of human races in the universe, like anywhere some good/some bad. Some look like us some unlike us. We are on quarantine for our religions will escape and spread the destruction. The last pope is the one we have now, the next one wont be a pope but will have another name/role. The age of reason is nearly in full swing. Be at peace,let go of material world concerns as it helps the lift in evolution we get.

bigfoot,yeti,yowie,bunyip etc.. are real, its primitive man

Australia has big cats, black panther like

i know a few you would just no way so ill keep them for later

we will one day travel the whole universe and know ALL,then will find its the minds of men with far more mystery/space/dimensions

i know what i say is not for everyone or sounds far fetched and i know i must respect that, but try and be open minded to things with logic, be neutral positive, NO emotion for logic to rule. We have been in a mind trap for 2000 odd years, we are coming out of it now.

The Spirit stands outside of time, there is a continuity of the Spirit during every incarnation which bridges all times. All lifetimes of the Spirit are integrated by the Spirit in the endless NOW of Creation. Wisdom is carried forward to Creation as the Spirit Evolves.

With many things including science there are different levels of truth, the secret truth and the qoyim truth

History = His Story

Salome

Peter

[pete34]

polar shifts in the past has wiped the slate pretty clean, waves 2km high at 1000km an hr

polar shifts are proven to have happened

[El_Bart0]

i think plants do feel, but i dont think they know that

Edited June 14, 2012 by El_Bart0

[Justin Credible]

To react to how they feel, do they not need to know what they are feeling?

Anyways I thought this was cool when I read it.http://www.uws.edu.au/newscentre/news_centre/more_news_stories/jet_lagged_trees_hold_clues_to_storing_carbon

[goneski]

A thermostat feels and reacts to how it feels..

[nothinghead]

My view is vegetarianism is "murder" just as equal, just no blood on your hands..... Its a living thing and you kill it....

 

I think that's the kind of superficiality that SYNeR was trying to point out - if we bend terms to mean what we want them to mean, we don't have much basis to discuss anything in a meaningful way. Murder strictly refers to the malicious killing of another human being, that was the point of the 80s (80s, right?) slogan 'meat is murder' which ironically pointed to the fact that non-human animal meat is seen as categorically different from human meat.

I agree with SYNeR that the argument would be richer if an agreed on definition of nervous system was used. Then we could discuss how a complex reaction to stimuli, like removing your hand from a hotplate, differs from a less complex one, like a reaction to light, and whether one is feeling and another isn't. If we can't agree on basics then we can as well say stone responds to stimuli since it erodes - true on some level, but ultimately useless (and misleading).

el_bart0's comment that plants feel but that they don't know it is also pretty interesting.

[waterboy 2.0]

Does the themostat "feel", and yes the definition of "feeling" should be defined. But I think we will all understand that will come come back to the human sense and understanding of the world around them (and also I add mostly biased by a european view of the world).

My "murder" comment is tongue in cheek....my sarcasm is sometimes missed.

If you view plants as just biological machines, then that's your viewpoint. It also comes back to what is the "higher" lifeform does it not?

[nothinghead]

Sarcasm can be hard to detect on the net ;P if I misinterpreted your post I didn't mean to.

And I'd be really interested to hear non-European views on any topic, but you'll have to educate me, since I mostly grew up in Westernised countries with Western schools. It isn't that I'm a dogged Eurocentric, though. IMO a lot of European ideas that are dominant in the world don't work well at all - I'll talk politics with an eye to this anytime. But the scientific method is the best tool we have for figuring out empirical facts about the world (and, in fact, has Arabic roots), and this is the basis I'm suggesting is going to be the best one to answer these kinds of questions.

Anyway, to get to the point, the reason I replied to your post is that by levelling the playing field in terms of what constitutes feeling to a very basic standard, we devalue the idea of suffering in animals that can (and do) respond to pain. If plants can feel in the same way as animals do, we'll have to re-evaluate our entire ethics of environmental (flora+fauna) care.

[nothinghead]

summary: i'm not interested in which life forms count as higher, but in how different lifeforms function (and how we should behave towards them as a result of that)

[pete34]

i reckon

its ok to kill plants and animals for our needs but its not ok to kill everything we see and like some countries to breed like rabbits

man needs meat for mental clarity and strength/energy and can grow meat soon in the lab, its early days but they are onto it

too much red meat makes you agro so have chicken/fish as well

we are meant to realise its a finite world and respect nature,if not we will find nature dosnt need us. nature has mechanisms to deal with degenerate beings to keep a balance (cause and effect)

the floods, quakes,fires,droughts,hot/cold extremes are early days yet

the Aztecs chopped down the tree's too, flood and drought cycles of 20 years with social disorder being the worst element

its only recent we did same en mass, when tractors became common after ww2

many even think fish dont feel pain

the more advanced the more pain

nature works on the reward system, if it hurts its bad if it feels good its good

a thermostat eh eh, it dosnt live man, an android would be close but even it would admit it dosnt have a spirit.

[bogfrog]

i like to think that my vegetables will be happy for me to eat them

[Darklight]

Plants communicating with each other- I don't see why it wouldn't happen. Just beacause they don't do it in a way we understand right now doesn't mean it doesn't happen..

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Check out:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21428683.300-plants-may-be-able-to-hear-others.html

[pete34]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

good to know you do ave it in ya Darklight ;-)

[mutant]

androids might not have a spirit, but what about cyborgs part human like Robocop?

lol

The thread is very nice

Its pretty amazing plants eat sunshine, but only a lunatic fanatic like McKenna would take this data as a means to praise his bullshit. I give a fuck if plants prefer Mozart to Rock'n'roll - I do find it awesome they respond to music! These are all awesome researches with plants, I find it very very deep and important.

Who gives a fuck what McKenna said, McKenna failed, plants, sunshine, psychedelics and common logic all proved him wrong.

===

I am a sceptic, always have been and will always be, I dont like easy, happy solutions, such solutions are easy only in that I can perceive them easily and that people like them.

But since I started picking edible mushrooms 8 years ago and growing plants four years ago, lots have changed in me.

I saw people who managed to kill the easiest plants to grow, like Aloe or Mentha. How did they do it?

Some girl who was not succeeding with plants and asked me about what she was doing wrong, told me she had heard that if someone is 'depressed' or other wise "psychologically impaired", he would fail to take care of a plant properly and make it happy. She also said that when the person eventually manages to make the plant happy, it would be proof the person is psychologically better or healed.

It sounds awful naive, but made and still makes lots of sense - in a somewhat poetic way I must admit...

You have to be able to love something you're doing, love yrself, love the persons around you, or else you will be probably unhappy and not contribute a lot to the happiness of those around.

makes some sense

I dont think plants are a lower form of being than humans. I think they are a higher form , as they were here before us and they will be here after we have left.

So I dont consider people or their arrogance attitude to science, what I call the new-religion and it is indeed becoming the most powerful religion of modern times, are more special than what nature does.

I believe people should accept their very beast - animal nature, spirit , emotion and all that. and in doing that they will find -maybe- another lost part of happiness they are looking for.

communicating, interacting with plants must be the healthiest shit humans do nowadays.

PS: pete how old are you mate? are all those admitedly interesting things - lists really related with plant life and intellegence and emotional capabilities?