I want to make a permanent plot of various plants

[kadakuda]

I have a reasonably good idea with things like fruit, cacti and that stuff as to making a permanent plantation.

the goal is to have everything live without human intervention year after year.

with many species this is ok.

the climate here:

coldest at nights in winter is 8c (went to 6 one night once), though even in winter is is usaulyl above 15C. day temps 20-30C

summer nights are 20+c days are 30's.

summer is WET, cloudy and humid. sometimes 1-2 months of straight rain, typhoons brign huge dumps at once, so floods happen but drain away usually within a day or 2.

winter is DRY, but still humid. no rain for 2-4 months is the norm.

with that cliamte in mind, mainly hte winter dry period, i am running iunto problems in how to make the land suitable for certain species.

the species i have difficulty thinking of how to do are:

*iboga

*psychotria

*yohimbe (i want to get some from sab someday----if you guys are reading this, let me know when you have some, tried emailing but never get replies)

as far as ethnos go (i wont bother with all teh other species i have going) so far i have setup with relative success so far:

trichs

caapi

various solanaceae but they are reseeders not perennial

the different "morning glories" Ipomoeae/Turbina/Argeryia

kratom is doing -ok- but still small so i had to water 4 times this 3 months without rain. but there is also dew in the morning so i have tried to allow that to funnel down to teh plant.

Anadenanthera

betel nut/leaf

mimosa (havent had them through winter yet, but am told they are quite drought tolerant)

and some others that still unsure about but seem -ok-

anyway the above are waht i am realyl worried about, especialyl the psych/iboga

any thoughs on making them work?

[PhoenixSon]

green house i reckon!

psychotria carth should be able to handle it outside if caapi and k are going okay.

im sure someone with more exp will come along...

[TheFriendlyPlanter]

I have a few tips from my experiences.

Bring in a truckload of sandy soil to begin with, and maybe terrace the area with rocks. Good drainage is important and getting your foundations right is totally worth it in the long run.

Add a few native plant species to your garden as this will encourage beneficial insects that will greatly reduce the impact of plant pests. Treating pests all day can really use up a lot of time and money and beneficial insects are way more sustainable long-term. Try to encourage Birds, Lizards, frogs and insects especially parisitic wasps which are attracted to flowers of the lamiaceae family. So plant any native mint/ sage/ Plectranthus etc as you possibly can. The up-side of this is you can get plenty of them as cuttings from roadsides etc.

You'll be surprised at how well exotic plants can grow amongst natives. although I generally keep plants grouped in particular areas based on the country they come from. ie South American plants grow and look better when planted together, as do Australian plants. And then again, rainforest plants grow and look better together just like succulents do, allocate particular areas carefully.

Place a plant in a position where you know it will grow happy and healthy. Don't base your positioning on where you think it may 'look' nice. Healthy plants always look good and unhealthy plants never look good.

Get as many plants as you can from your local area as they will be more suited to your particular climatic conditions and grow better. Sometimes a plant from another area won't grow well in your area even when the exact same species is growing next door.

If a plant really doesn't like your particular conditions then you might not want to bother with it at all, as you'll spend too much time looking after it's particular needs.

Seeds and cuttings are a good way to get started if you have a large area to fill then move towards buying bigger plants as over time you'll have less gaps to fill and be more 'picky'.

In your climate I'd use 'living mulches' like inch-plants for instance as they'll help hold the soil together. But be careful they don't smother smaller/younger plants.

If you build a greenhouse then leave one or two sides open to reduce the impact of insect pests. Greenhouses often get pest outbreaks worse than the garden so allowing natural predators to move through works well.The protection of a larger tree can also give the same protection as a green house at no cost.

Keep a plant in a pot for a while before you commit to planting it, you'll often change your mind on where to plant it. If you have unlimited cuttings then plant them in a number of different conditions and you'll see where they grow best.

Don't forget the fruit trees, You want it as productive as possible!

Anyway, I'm just brain-storming here, hope it helps.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Quantum turkey

[mutant]

Quantum turkey , these are some great general advise, thanks mate. They seem very helpful to me, even though I am planning/doing such things in a totelly different area/climate...

Edited May 10, 2010 by mutant

[kadakuda]

great help thanks guys.

here is the low down. i am moving to canada in 5-10 years and need these plants to thrive on their own by that point, without human help.

i have these years to build up the land to support them as best i can. this means greenhouses are out for this project, though i use them for other stuff for the time being.

quantium, i really appreciate your thought out response

Bring in a truckload of sandy soil to begin with, and maybe terrace the area with rocks. Good drainage is important and getting your foundations right is totally worth it in the long run.

i have not terraced simply due to the fact this land is very long and narrow, only 14meters wide by hundreds long. its a weird shape, but wont take to terracing well i fear. but i have planned some raised areas and done some for dry plants like cacti. sand is good for some, but i wonder for things like psycotria and kratom which are generally water favouring species would this be wise given the long periods of no rain?

Add a few native plant species to your garden as this will encourage beneficial insects that will greatly reduce the impact of plant pests. Treating pests all day can really use up a lot of time and money and beneficial insects are way more sustainable long-term. Try to encourage Birds, Lizards, frogs and insects especially parisitic wasps which are attracted to flowers of the lamiaceae family. So plant any native mint/ sage/ Plectranthus etc as you possibly can. The up-side of this is you can get plenty of them as cuttings from roadsides etc.

i love the way you think. i plan the entire thing much like that actually. i have done that since i started the farm and there are MANY new species showing up now....including 3 species of frogs which were not there previously. lizards were always around, and i am seeing many more other things such as spiders, insects and snakes which makes me happy...though i also notice cats around now.....

You'll be surprised at how well exotic plants can grow amongst natives. although I generally keep plants grouped in particular areas based on the country they come from. ie South American plants grow and look better when planted together, as do Australian plants. And then again, rainforest plants grow and look better together just like succulents do, allocate particular areas carefully.

i do similar things, but where i run a blank is with the pyschotrias...i only have experience growing them in pots, never in ground so i am quite new to this area. i was planning on maybe putting them under a water demanding tree that makes a canopy, perhaps along with iboga. a though that came to mind was growing them under betel nut trees, or perhaps a more shading species if that proves to let too much light in and dry things up.

In your climate I'd use 'living mulches' like inch-plants for instance as they'll help hold the soil together. But be careful they don't smother smaller/younger plants.

another fantastic idea. i have been doing this a lot lately, and it is in fact how i got the kratom to pull through winter without "much" attention. i let the weeds go nuts more or less as they not only hold the soil in place (great cause i use trenches a LOT at this point while plants are small) but they also shade the ground and help prevent evaporation. so the soil where the weeds are is always somewhat moist whereas the areas where i am growing vegetables and i weed are dry and i need to water them. we are using "living mulch" (cool term btw) and also using the weeds as a "leaf litter" wot eventually try and get this really shitty soil a little better. i think of the entire farm as a compost in motion.

with all this stuff in mind, i still cannot help but wonder about the psych/iboga in dry season. what my thinking is, is that once they attain a large enough size and have ground cover plants (to keep soil from drying) and a canopy above (to avoid too much sun-evaporation) the roots will grow deep enough to sustain itself through winter. also winter every night has dew, which isnt enough to wet the ground, but may help hydrate. also in 5-10 years i hope to add at least a foot or 2 of leaf litter/compost to the entire area (about an acre) which i hope will help with water retention.

here are some pics of the farm now.

winter/dry season. see some weeds still live (due to dew) so i have hope yet.

after the first rain, which is not that big, things spring up fast

this is basically how i weed and try to add to the soil

i throw them into the trenches as it keeps them moist and keeps the snails and such, at least directly, away form the plants i want to grow. also they get composted there and when water comes in to the trenches seeps worm poop into the soil...i hope.

this is watering everything through ditches

irrigation pond, but this is for the greenhouse, so wont be used when i leave....be a frog breeding tank i guess lol. the tarp is not for anything, just to protect my computer/speakers from the rain (gotta have tunes)

its probably important to note that during typhoons and tropical storms, the entire area may be under 3-4 feet of water for a day or so...which makes me worry about topsoil/leaf litter/loam erosion....which is the main reason i let weeds live for the most part (except morning glories and grasses.....)

[planthelper]

just looking at those coco palms, makes me say, no problems there with achiving your goal.

but you need to grow aswell a couple of shade tress and bushes, as a shelterd aspect is what makes them survive without any care given.

kratom hates the dry winters, but can survive them.

in my garden for example i planted out 4 caapi plants, after returning to my place 1 had survived, which means planting out in nummbers gives you better odds.

my soil various a lot, aswell i tried many different aspects, where the plants recieved different ammounts of light and shelter and so on.

your place looks very uniform though, so i guess there will be not a lot of variation on your plot, soil and water wise, so working with trees to provide shelter and microclimat would be my first step!

aswell, look for spots like where your water well might be leaking a bit or similar, as they would make prime targets for your venture.

[kadakuda]

your place looks very uniform though, so i guess there will be not a lot of variation on your plot, soil and water wise, so working with trees to provide shelter and microclimat would be my first step!

ya this is literally a flat rectangle. *slightly* higher at the back which is why its more dry.

any suggestions for shade trees? a lot of natives loose their leaves in winter which doesnt really help with shade lol. a lot of the fruit trees im growing are also probably too dense (things like lychee, rambutan, mango etc). was thinking durian trees would be good, but not sure they fit in my time line. they are kind of slow i find. ideally i wan tot use "useful" plants when at all possible...be it food, medicine etc.

what kind of situation did your caapi survive? they seem -ok- so long as the roots are in a bunch of real tall weeds....they suffer from lack of nutrition, but they have water...

[Quill]

you gotta watch out walking under durian trees. Falling fruit are potentially fatal.

[tripsis]

Looks like a cool plot to plant out kada. Did it cost you much to set up in Taiwan?

Mmmm, durian. You should plant some anyway. Even if they are not large enough to be shade trees in 10 years, they may be bearing fruit by the time you come back.

Acacia spp. may be good as shade trees while the smaller plants are establishing. They grow quickly and die quickly.

[kadakuda]

Looks like a cool plot to plant out kada. Did it cost you much to set up in Taiwan?

 

thank sman. no it didnt but thats because i am married here. the standard of living and pay are quite good compared to many places, hence we stay...and a 12 month growing season doesnt hurt either though if you want ot buy land you must be a citizen, as far as i have been told. this land belongs to my wifes parents, but its ours when they pass.

Mmmm, durian. You should plant some anyway. Even if they are not large enough to be shade trees in 10 years, they may be bearing fruit by the time you come back.

 

for sure, will have at least 4 platns of many different tropical fruit species i love them....though i dont liek eating durian to be honest....still want to obtain the red fruit variety BADLY.

Acacia spp. may be good as shade trees while the smaller plants are establishing. They grow quickly and die quickly.

dieing quick may nto be great as i will probabyl need a permanent shade tree species for the psychotria as im jsut not sure how it can manage in the open without me watering them.

anyone know how deep psychotria rotos will go down? about 3 meters down it is perma wet, so if they can reach that then its smooth sailing. though there is a VERY hard clay layer between this wet layer and the top soil area (brkon 4 shovel handles on that layer so far)

you gotta watch out walking under durian trees. Falling fruit are potentially fatal.

lol i can see that! between that and durian tree heights i can see why so many farmers train poor little monkeys to get them.

[ThunderIdeal]

just a suggestion, maybe the psychotria would be better off planted in a ditch, or would that put it underwater for weeks at a time?

my other suggestion is a porous pot buried next to its roots. you could probably rig up a small catchment that fills the pot with water.

[tripsis]

Red durian??! Tell me more!

Re. the Acacia spp., I mean use them as your forerunner species, to create quick shade for those that need it. Also plant trees that will live longer, but grow slower. So in the time that it takes an Acacia to keel over, the other species will have (hopefully and theoretically) attained a suitable height for creating shade. Having said that, having an Acacia keel over on to the very plants you are trying to protect is not really beneficial.

There's a tree from the Amazon that grows 8m a year. Not that I'm suggesting you source or grow it, but it's pretty interesting.

Edited May 11, 2010 by tripsis

[kadakuda]

thunger, ya be too wet for toolong liekthat..

my other suggestion is a porous pot buried next to its roots. you could probably rig up a small catchment that fills the pot with water.

that is a fantastic idea! i like it a lot, modify it to work out here but a great suggestion. i want to figure a way to do something liek this but find a way to get dew to form and run down into the ground via pipe.

Red durian??! Tell me more!

ya man there are many species, some are red inside. REALLY cool! i wasn't able to find any when we backpacked through malaysia, but we never made it to borneo...when we get to borneo that will be top priority to find....the other problem with durian while backpacking is the seeds die super fast....

here is a photo from google:

i see what you mean with the acacia...i get it. i am doing a similar thing with mimosa now, though more for soil reasons than shade....could this be used as well? i have never grown M. hostilis more than a meter, so no idea what its potential height is.

8m a year is pretty quick. what species is it do you know? im not sure i would be so popular amongst our neighbours if we had a 100 meter tree on a 14m wide farm in a typhoon prone country lol! my wife is pissed off at me for planting durian and ficus lol.

[plainswalker]

Maybe dig a pond that will fill with rainwater and plant next to it? The clay should keep the water from seeping away if you do it right, then plant useful shade trees around to shade the water from sunlight/evaporation. Then plant the psychotrias and other water-needy species near the pond.

I'd suggest watching 'Establishing a Food Forest The Permaculture Way' by Geoff Lawton for some ideas on plants and what to do with land so that plants will grow and be productive absent human nurturing. His 'Harvesting Water the Permaculture Way' video is good and helpful too.

[Zaka]

Irie,

If you want a useful fast growing tree to use for shade, think about moringa!

It grows very fast....& is excellent medicinal food. PM me for seeds!

Definitely think about conditioning the soil with compost...

Respect

Z

[kadakuda]

problem with ponds is they get filled with mud the first decent rain. i have 2 already in place and they are half full (of dirt) now and its still dry season

Will definately check out those vids as soon as i can find them.

zaka, thanks for the tree tip will look into it and get to you

the thing with trees here is they need to be very sturdy in winds, or else not grow super huge.

[tripsis]

ya man there are many species, some are red inside. REALLY cool! i wasn't able to find any when we backpacked through malaysia, but we never made it to borneo...when we get to borneo that will be top priority to find....the other problem with durian while backpacking is the seeds die super fast....

here is a photo from google:

Whoa, that's amazing! Is it supposed to taste different? I never saw anything like that when I was in Borneo. How long do the seeds stay viable for?

i see what you mean with the acacia...i get it. i am doing a similar thing with mimosa now, though more for soil reasons than shade....could this be used as well? i have never grown M. hostilis more than a meter, so no idea what its potential height is.

I don't know a great deal about Mimosa spp., but they are in the same family and subfamily as Acacias. Whether this means they are "pioneer" species and short-lived or not, I don't know.

8m a year is pretty quick. what species is it do you know?

I can't remember the name, it's in the Life of Plants by David Attenborough, the episode on rainforests.

Coconut palms are very wind resistant and when they are young would make good shade species. I don't know fast quick they are to grow though.

[mutant]

This thread must be one of the greatest!!

Really gets me into further thinking and ideas about similar stuff I wanna do.

Establishing a Food Forest DVD "Promo" sure makes the film look very interesting, thanks for the tip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVo2bOIN_AA

[kadakuda]

the red durian is said to be bland and "odorless"...have also heard of it making people nauseous/dizzy....hmmm....

we will be trying to search some out when we go to borneo....people i asked in penninsular malaysia and indonesia/singapore areas never heard of it....seeds die fast, like a week. not long at all! i brought back some seeds form abroad but had to use sphagnum moss and some"make do materials" to send back here. even then there was only 10% germ rate (though they were in pack for 3 weeks, so good considering. if you can plant fresh from fruit, 80%+ is easy.

Coconut palms are very wind resistant and when they are young would make good shade species. I don't know fast quick they are to grow though.

they are quite slow and attract scale and mealy badly when young. i am avoiding coco nut around our farm, our neighbours already got a bunch

mutant, well chime in brother. what you have on your plate?

[mauve]

Hello Kadakuda, i am on the nearest island from you (Okinawa) and i think that there are interesting local plants that you could use but be careful to not plant anything too invasive if you dont want having to fight with your neighboors (don't plant Alpinia zerumbet for example) ;)

Gotu Kola (Centella asiatica) would be nice as a ground cover, i found it as a cute weed in a garden there, it is nice looking, grows easily and you can eat it (delicious when fresh, you can put it in salad or make a refreshing drink).

Just check what the taiwanese plant in your area against typhoon and for shadow. I think that there is important coffe production in Taiwan, what trees are used for protecting the young coffee plants, etc.

I'm sure anadenanthera trees would do great there. Kratom would require a little care at the begining but once established i'm sure it would do great too, it is very hardy. For the Psychotrias, just don't plant specimens that are too young.

A VERY good idea would be to delimitate your parcel with rows of vetiver (Chrysopogon zizanioides): it is non invasive (infertile), protect against erosion, retains rain water from escaping and allows good irrigation when it rains (not only on the surface: it has very long roots), it guards against flooding too, it detoxifies the soil and water, looks nice, the root smells heavenly, have a myriad of uses and on top of that your neighbour's crops will improve since they will beneficy from a better irrigation as well ! (check it: http://www.vetiver.com/)

[mutant]

Cheers, kada, if ya don't mind..

thing is my piece of land is very irregular and steep, the land borders a [deep, steep, gullly/riverbed/crook between two 'mountains' . My land has a path down there. Water flows down, the rainy years up until mid summer, even begining of august last year - that's got me into the crazy idea of maybe I could pick spots to let ethno plants go wild.

I cannot take photos that show the thing. I would have to take over 30 photos and also make a scetch and a langthy description. Maybe I proceed with that soon..

I had opened up a thread in the past, here it is.

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19439&hl=ethnogarden&st=0

Anyway, my place is mostly good for more xero/dry plants. Anadenanthera is on its way, acacias hopefully so, peganum seeds will be sown randomly too. I have managed to hold the spots and paths I cleared in most part, it's got many good spots, but the weeds are always coming back, so it's a fight.

One viable idea is getting turbinas and argyreias to grow in the gully. I have to get down again, have some photos and come back some time with more data. The gully should also be gradually conquered there is also a piece opf land down there, more shady, which

is also promising but need much work

here a photo of the crook from another spot, the cactus garden

see the gap behind the cacti? that's the gulf again, from another spot

Edited May 13, 2010 by mutant

[gerbil]

With the Acacia kadakuda, there are also some very long lived species out there too. Different species for different purposes and ecosystem function. I've seen some really huge old Acacia melanoxylon on dry ridge tops in victoria, sitting around 600m asl. With the field team at the time, there were thoughts that they were potentially up around the 150 years old mark, particularly given the enormous size and the knowledge of fire activity in the area in the last 150+ years.

Not saying it'll be the choice for you, just an example of a long lived species, there are often short lived nursery acacia species under these long lived ones too.

here's a little info on it, just for the hell of it.

http://www.worldwidewattle.com/infogallery/utilisation/acaciasearch/pdf/melanoxylon.pdf

Good luck with the project, must be very exciting :D

Weed potential is an important aspect i guess.

Edited May 14, 2010 by gerbil

[kadakuda]

arggg... was about to hit subit and closed the window....

Hello Kadakuda, i am on the nearest island from you (Okinawa) and i think that there are interesting local plants that you could use but be careful to not plant anything too invasive if you dont want having to fight with your neighboors (don't plant Alpinia zerumbet for example) ;)

 

awesome! cool to find out there are people so close to "home". INvasive is a huge concern, though to be qwuite frank teh farm is already covered in some HARD as hell weeds....htey are so tough i almost have a deep respect for them...almost.

Gotu Kola (Centella asiatica) would be nice as a ground cover, i found it as a cute weed in a garden there, it is nice looking, grows easily and you can eat it (delicious when fresh, you can put it in salad or make a refreshing drink).

attractive little plants, iw ill try some out. they are pretty common in planters and ground cover here...but i doubt they will hold back the grasses and mornign glories...we shall see it always reminds me of nasturtium, any similar in taste?

Just check what the taiwanese plant in your area against typhoon and for shadow. I think that there is important coffe production in Taiwan, what trees are used for protecting the young coffee plants, etc.

peopel here tend to stick to plast shade cloth and move things out into the open when bigger. shade trees often used when plastic is not is banana, which is a great *short* term solution, but they dont liv elong through typhoons and such. last year we saw hundreds of fields FLATTENED from the big typhoon.

I'm sure anadenanthera trees would do great there. Kratom would require a little care at the begining but once established i'm sure it would do great too, it is very hardy. For the Psychotrias, just don't plant specimens that are too young.

im glad to hear that about the kratom. i was figuring they should be -ok- once their roots have a change to grow down more. though they have grown very little in the time at the farm....maybe 4 sets of leaves the whole time...compared to a few inches a month in a pot at home. to be expected i guess, im happy they are alive to be honest.

A VERY good idea would be to delimitate your parcel with rows of vetiver (Chrysopogon zizanioides): it is non invasive (infertile),

i read a little about that. sounds good, but i have come clean and say the idea of planting a grass that has deep roots worries me. i spend so many hours pulling out grass clumps that my hands are permanently brown lol. maybe they dont seed, but many grasses spread via other means ie runners (i hate that shit). though i liek the pros to it i am jsut worried about anythign grass lol.

mutant bro, looking good. keep postin ghere if you want. i find the best ideas come from teh most of ftopic situations, so we may be able to see things the other didnt and comment on it

when i saw you steep -gully?- agave came to mind. in SE taiwan it is covered in some species of nice large blue-green agave. it REALLY holds the cliffs together, you may like it. opuntia are aslo really usful that way. trichs would be but pretty slow to grow in comparison. the bad thing with opuntia and agave are they are mealy magnets, and opuntia can be scale magnets as well.

gerbil, good to know. many of the family we see here are eitehr trees (ie delonix) or weedy species like Desmanthus/Albizia etc. Can that Acacia you mentioned stand long periods of rain?

There are some attractive Acacia for sure, but i am worried about their invasivness.....so long as a pant doens mind water, things can potentially get out of hand easily here.

yesterday i was picking up some students at school and it hit me. Pachira aquatica...money tree. they grow medium height, stand typhoons well and they can take the dry when a bit larger....they have attractive green stems when large and provide a good level of shade without being dark...i think its perfect....too bad all my trees are only 3 feet. mutant, this may also be a good one for you as well, if they are ok with your temps. not by the steep bank, but maybe somewhere further down and you can work them up to shade the bank to help keep moisture in....or at least stop sun baking th esoil.

[mauve]

I don't know the taste of the plant you mentioned but Gotu Kola's taste is nice, reminds me of raw carrot with a spicy aftertaste. I did feel good everytime i've munched on it but it is too early for me to draw any conclusion on this herb's activity: i'm waiting for my balcony grown Gotu Kola to be well established before further harvesting it is definitively a very cute herb to have around, in little pots and it makes a cool plant in a glass of water for decorating the home (it grows in plain water too as it is semi-aquatic).

Yes, it is crazy the amount of invasive weeds introduced in those china sea islands, there are tons of morning glories and others in Okinawa too...difficult for me to understand wich ones are natives or not.