CHALIPONGA CUTTINGS

[Chiral]

If a plant was discovered and was of ethno value say in South America and it hadn't been classified or heard of before..

AQIS deal with weed potential, customs deals with drug issues. Two different and separate departments. You can get an AQIS import permit for salvia divinorum for example and they would not even bother asking you whether you also hold a valid import permit from customs and your state drug agency. And vice versa.

So any question in regards to alkaloid levels and part have NOTHING to do with getting a quarantine import approval.

Similarly any question in regards to weed potential has nothing to do with Customs.

To get a quarantine permit you need to provide enough information about a plant to show that it does not pose an environmental risk to australia. Primarily this is about not tainting milk, not matting wool, and not contaminating pastures and fields. In recent years ecological concerns have been added to this list, eg weed potential in rainforests or savannah lands, but this is still definitely a secondary concern [as to be expected by an agency run by the department of primary industries rather than one run by the dpartment of the environment].

If you cannot provide sufficient information to show the low weed risk potential and low impact on australia then you will not be issued with a permit and the species will remain listed as unassessed.

If you do provide enough information [and paid you $$ for the assessment] then a ruling will be made by biosecurity australia which will either prohibit the import or permit it. If the latter then this might come with a set of conditions, such as limitiations of source countries, treatments upon arrival, and post-quarantine requirements [eg 6 months grown in supervised approved facilities with regular inspections and sampling].

None of the above has any bearing on the legality as far as customs is concerned. So you may get all your assessements approved and have your shipment sitting at port, when the customs guys kncock on your door and arrest you for importing an illegal drug.

What's an illegal drug as far as plants are concerned?

1) anything listed as an illegal drug plant in a federal schedule.

2) anything listed as an illegal drug plant in the state schedules of the state of import.

3) anything that contains an illegal drug [even in traces] listed in the customs schedules or the federal criminal code act.

4) anything that contravenes any state drug law of the state of import [eg in SA this would include San Pedro & khat].

5) anything that the "office of community protection" deems to be an undesirable import.

Note, #5 is the main sticking point even if you pass all the other hurdles. They just type the name into google and then decide on the basis of what they find. eg, they ruled that ephedra seeds are an illegal import because they can be used to grow ephedra plants, which can be used to produce ephedrine - even though ephedra seeds do not contain any ephedrine themselves and hence should be completely legal. Now, you won't get prosecuted for #5, but you will still lose all your plants. The office of community protection is actually a special department within the TGA which advises customs on what to do. So, if you think the TGA isn't going to like what you are importing you might as well forget about it.

 

No wonder people smuggle things in...what a load of bureaucratic bull-dust...you have to wonder how different earth would be or if there would be any negative impact at all if all borders were open to all plants and there were no restrictions...I guess negative impact is subjective to the user of that particular bit of land...I reckon mother nature would take care of it anyways even if pathogens did spread to other countries and weeds spread here and there...Gov'ts are so precious about this...they don't own this planet or even the bloody country or state...people going to jail for moving nature around to new places...sorry but when bureaucracy has taken over like that I have a hard time understanding why...particularly when they allow pollution and deforestation for grazing cattle, winery's spewing filth into rivers, cotton farms polluting the environment....sure these are money making economic strongholds for the country and the jerks at border security are always banging on about how this pest and this pathogen could wipe out a whole cotton farming industry or stone fruit industry...other countries without any such restrictions don't seem to be living in fear of a rampant plant that comes in with a pest or virus, am I missing something here or is Australia's flora and fauna the only in the world that would shrivel up and die at the first foriegn insect that gets in and breeds...are all these hocus pocus rules and reasons based on some sort of super world study on the environments everywhere that have been implemented due to other countries experiences where all their local native anaimals and plants have been decimated by a tourist who brought in a rouge stone fruit.

This reminds me sometimes of the ridiculous way we approach flu virus's, all we do when we make vaccines is encourage the virus's to mutate to even stronger and more lethal ones...one day it will mutate to a level where it wipes out everyone before they can knock up enough vaccine to beat it...surely you can't wrap Australia's environment up in coton wool forever and continue to use economics as the reason, how will the local environment be able to cope with antibodies and pathogens or feral insects if it has never had practice...like trying to keep a human from ever having a cold or being sick, their immune system has to work and defend to strengthen it's line of genetics and learn to mutate or develop defense mechanisms for it's species and offspring through learning and evolution.

It's obvious to me in nature that this is how nature works and evolves, some plants develop spines over thousands of years because they have been attacked by a certain animal or insect, or how certain orchids have a very particular shaped flower so that the particular bird it needs to come into it's flower will get a little brush of pollen across it's comb there fore when it flies to the next flower the pollen is delivered exactly to where the flower needs it to be pollinated, or how certain acacia in Africa have developed huge spines to discourage giraffe and elephants from stripping the branches of foliage. nature looks after nature, bureaucracy looks after shareholders and banks and will never be able to compete or control nature...nature will fight back and win.

nuff said

[Torsten]

How do we find the what's on the federal and state schedules?

http://www.comlaw.gov.au

each state also has all legislation online. NT is the worst.

If a plant comes safely through AQIS, do they then send it on to customs?

yes, even though both initial processes happen in the same building. but yes, quarantine is first.

[Torsten]

chiral, I don't actually disagree with quarantine. my beef is with the arbitrary and incomplete nature of it. ie, what's the point of inspecting 3% of shipping containers and 10% of parcels if you're trying to keep pests and diseases out?

I've seen some plants do some incredible damage in australian ecosystems, especially in the rainforests, and would not want to be the cause of it. Obviously such damage pales in comparison to the habitat destruction by humans.

[occidentalis]

It's obvious to me in nature that this is how nature works and evolves, some plants develop spines over thousands of years because they have been attacked by a certain animal or insect, or how certain orchids have a very particular shaped flower so that the particular bird it needs to come into it's flower will get a little brush of pollen across it's comb there fore when it flies to the next flower the pollen is delivered exactly to where the flower needs it to be pollinated, or how certain acacia in Africa have developed huge spines to discourage giraffe and elephants from stripping the branches of foliage. nature looks after nature, bureaucracy looks after shareholders and banks and will never be able to compete or control nature...nature will fight back and win.

 

Chiral I would like to suggest that you spend some time as a volunteer removing weeds from your local urban bushland reserve ;)

[tripsis]

3% of shipping containers and 10% of parcels is better than nothing. We have enough rampant weeds here as it is, we really don't need more. Even the best intentions can go astray. There will always be people who intentionally import species of flora which are currently not in Australia. We cannot predict whether these species will become weeds or not, hence AQIS are there to do the best they can. I'm guilty of having done this too and can only hope that if plants are grown, they are grown responsibly.

On another note, many tropane-containing Solananae species have seeds that are contain tropane alkaloids. If AQIS were to find seeds of these species, then send them on to customs, would they be seen as vessels for a drug and thus chargeable as an offense for importation of illegal drugs?

[Chiral]

chiral, I don't actually disagree with quarantine. my beef is with the arbitrary and incomplete nature of it. ie, what's the point of inspecting 3% of shipping containers and 10% of parcels if you're trying to keep pests and diseases out?

I've seen some plants do some incredible damage in australian ecosystems, especially in the rainforests, and would not want to be the cause of it. Obviously such damage pales in comparison to the habitat destruction by humans.

 

Anyways with air currents and weather patterns can't just any spore or any seed be caught up in an air current and be carried across waters to land on foreign soil anyways I mean same with bugs and insects, birds they can fly from country to country carrying all sorts and even shitting a seed it ate in NZ on oz soil once it flew the short distance across the tasman, spores blowing to all for corners of the continuously...anyways follow the rules people cause it's patriotic to save the farmers crops who are decimating all our natural bushland for the farming, and don't bring in any beaded necklaces or djembe drums or carved wooden statues, from south america or they will confiscate them cause they are full very angry insects and worms that will decimate our stone fruit crops...for fucks sake.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Chiral

[tripsis]

Chiral, no offense intended, but you really have the wrong attitude. It's not about the farmer's crops, it's about the natural ecosystems that make up Australia and make it unique. If we allow everything from foreign lands to come here without even basic assessment, we are dooming this land to degradation and lowered biodiversity. It's not about some idiotic form of patriotism. Do some research into the problems weeds, feral animals and pests cause to our ecosystems before you make assumptions about people's intentions for concern.

As far as birds, insects, spores and seed being dispersed by natural means goes, yes it happens. But it happens relatively rarely when compared to travel through human intervention. Often the organisms which make their way to foreign shores via natural means do not live past one generation, as it is often only one individual which gets blown over. Those that travel via human transport though have a better chance, as we bring populations over. It is the rate at which organisms are now travelling to foreign lands which is posing the environmental problems we see today.

Edited April 8, 2010 by tripsis

[blip]

I am definitely naming one of my kids Chaliponga.

[Chiral]

Chiral, no offense intended, but you really have the wrong attitude. It's not about the farmer's crops, it's about the natural ecosystems that make up Australia and make it unique. If we allow everything from foreign lands to come here without even basic assessment, we are dooming this land to degradation and lowered biodiversity. It's not about some idiotic form of patriotism. Do some research into the problems weeds, feral animals and pests cause to our ecosystems before you make assumptions about people's intentions for concern.

As far as birds, insects, spores and seed being dispersed by natural means goes, yes it happens. But it happens relatively rarely when compared to travel through human intervention. Often the organisms which make their way to foreign shores via natural means do not live past one generation, as it is often only one individual which gets blown over. Those that travel via human transport though have a better chance, as we bring populations over. It is the rate at which organisms are now travelling to foreign lands which is posing the environmental problems we see today.

 

let me ask you this then...do you want a chaliponga plant or any other international ethno we can't get here....?...if you get your mits on one can you guarantee that once you have propagated it and spread it around to others that it doesn't become feral and end up destroying parts of Australia's delicate ecosystem...?

Also I'd like to see where and in what countries where people have imported a plant for personal use or for decoration that has been a contributing factor to mass destruction the the local flora and fauna in their country.

Show me one single incident where the importation of some wooden beads has decimated a fragile native ecosystem...I'm not being a smart arse I just wish to see the data so I can see some facts.

don't go bangin on about cane toads either that's not from people bringing in wooden objects or a rare orchid for their collections.

[tripsis]

Of course I do, but I'm also aware of the potential damage that could occur. I for one would be extremely unhappy to find out a plant I had imported turned out to become an invasive weed. This isn't always going to stop me, but if I know of a genus's propensity toward becoming weed, like Datura for example, I wouldn't be so quick to import seeds of a species that isn't already here or in wide circulation. We are all self-serving to some degree, but just because we have allowance for some things doesn't mean we should open the flood gates.

Also I'd like to see where and in what countries where people have imported a plant for personal use or for decoration that has been a contributing factor to mass destruction the the local flora and fauna in their country.

Lantana is in the top 20 invasive plant species of this country. It was imported an an ornamental. Regardless of the intention for a species being brought in though, there are countless foreign species causing wide-spread havoc on our ecosystems today. Bringing a plant in for personal or decorative use is no more innocent that bring a plant in to feed livestock, to cultivate for timber or stabilise dunes. They are all good intentions gone astray.

An example of a pest brought in with wood:

[

Case Study 21 : Asian longhorned beetle, a threat to North American forests3

Anoplophora glabripennis, the Asian longhorned beetle (ALB), probably entered the USA inside solid wood packing material from China, and has been intercepted at ports and in warehouses throughout the USA. The insect is a serious pest in China where it has few natural enemies; in North America no natural enemies have been recorded as yet and if this insect becomes established it could destroy millions of acres of America's hardwoods.

The female beetles lay their eggs in the bark of trees, and on hatching, the larvae bore into the trunk, feeding on the heartwood and girdling stems and branches. When mature, the beetles burrow out of the tree leaving a ? inch exit hole. The adults then feed on the bark and leaves. Repeated attacks lead to dieback of the tree crown and, eventually, to the death of the tree. In the USA the beetle prefers maple species (Acer spp.), including Norway, red, silver, sugar and sycamore maples. Maples are not only a dominant tree species in the northeastern part of the USA, but are the basis of the US$40 million maple syrup industry. The beetle also attacks many other hardwood trees, including horse chestnut, mulberry, black locust, elm, birch, willow, poplar and green ash.

Currently, the only effective means of containing ALB is to remove and destroy infested trees. The area is then quarantined to prevent the movement of infested trees and branches. Early detection of infestations and a rapid response are critical if the spread of the beetle is to be controlled. However, the chances of eradicating the beetle are low: in 1996, State and Federal Governments spent more than US$4 million on a suppression programme in New York City and Amityville, NY, but these efforts are not believed to have resulted in eradication.

Sources: Wittenberg and Cock (2001); USDA (2002); USDA-APHIS (2003); Illinois Department of Agriculture (2001)

If you don't already know about Phytophthora cinnamomi, have a read about it. It's a foreign curse on this land, causing massive tracts of forest to succumb to what is known as dieback. If we let the rest of the world breach the shores of this continent, without any consideration for the consequences, we can expect many more of our ecosystems to degrade or collapse.

[Torsten]

tripsis, tropanes are not S8/S9 or customs prohibited.

Consider this in regards to my comment about the arbitrary nature of aqis assessments:

I often import multiple packages of the same herb. same supplier, same country, same products and quality. With my last import of 5 packs of heimia herb, 2 came through, 1 was ordered into heat treatment, one was ordered into radiation or return, and the 5th was rejected because it contained flowers and flowers were not a listed part in the conditions.

These 5 packs were originally one pack from the main supplier, which I got repacked for import by a friend, ie they were identical. All of them contained flowers [which every other inspector has previously regarded as part of 'herb'], all of them contained the same amount of dust matter, and there were no insects or eggs in that lot cos it had already been heat treated before dispatch. The moron at the other end sounded like he'd been in training for about a week, but actually had no power to reverse his own decision. To do so I had to make an application to the head office in canberra. In the end I preferred to pay the 42.50 for each of the two rejected parcels to get them exported and then had them sent straight back. Both were inspected by quarantine and cleared.

If a system is so poor that it is not replicable then it should not be in place.

It is this sort of arbitrary crap [and the fact I actually talk to a lot of these inspectors] which has eroded any confidence I have in the system.

And no, inspecting 3% isn't better than inspecting none as it is a collossal waste of money which could be spent on a more effective system or approach.

Bottom line is that there is no incidence of a plant species actually causing the extinction of another [although kudzu is coming pretty close]. It is ludicrous that we piss about with such a minor issue just so we can comfortably ignore the larger issue of habitat destruction by human activities like farming and settlement, which are indeed responsible for the extinction of many species. Most species eventually find a balance to coexist - the big exceptions being humans.

[tripsis]

I forgot about this thread.

So, tropanes aren't S8/S9? How's that work, considering how dangerous they are?

No one ever mentioned an incidence of a plant species causing the extinction of another, but there is more than enough evidence of many introduced plant species utterly devastating ecosystems. Just take a look at the areas of coastal habitat that are nothing more than monocultures of bitou bush with the odd native trying to eke out an existence. Yes, habitat destruction by humans is a far greater threat, but this doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to the other threats. It would be a sad future to see all the areas we manage to save from human destruction, infested with weeds and with significantly lower biodiversity.

[Mr. Green]

Alright people it seems that the chaliponga cutting did survive the trip from the tropics! How awesome is that? I will make it soon available to the WORLD!!! peace

[Otorongo]

Alright people it seems that the chaliponga cutting did survive the trip from the tropics! How awesome is that? I will make it soon available to the WORLD!!! peace

 

Awesome news!

This plant seems to be quite susceptible to stress though, your cutting may look okay now but there is a long way to go from here. Good luck!

[haze1205]

Any pics?!?!

[Mr. Green]

The cutting still is in a critical phase, i will post pics next week if it has some green on its stem. Last week i noticed some rootforming on the stem so i'm excited! peace people oh yeah can anybody help me out with a live voacanga africana or nexus?

[Mr. Green]

Alright here are some pictures of the tiny green shoot from the what should be chaliponga plant!

There is still not much to see but at least its something!

[Dr Green Thumb]

Well make it work!!! First thing is to get the cutting in a healthy condition overseas. then revive it to make it a big plant with enough plant material take cuttings distribute them > Wish me luck!

 

Good Luck Mr.Green! This is one species that should definitely be in Australia! May they the ancient spirits guide your journey home.

Very exciting news!

[ENtiTY]

So how did things go with the cutting? Thumbs up or thumbs down?

[Teotzlcoatl]

This site has live Diplopterys plants, Guayusa plants, Virola seeds and much more hard to find stuff!

http://www.kiwiboancaya.net/

[Teotzlcoatl]

http://www.kiwiboancaya.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=35&product_id=57

[ErraneousHerbalist]

Very interested in seeing how the cutting went as well. If you could please upload a picture?

[Seldom]

this is the only stuff i ever neg for.

[☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ]

Okay so has anyone thought of trying leaf cuttings like you can with viridis and carth..

here you are getting the Rubiaceae confused with the Malphigiaceae again. Not many plants will grow from leaf cuttings, however of those that do you will usually find species or even genus clusteres within families. As several close relatives of diplo do not grow from leaf cuttings it is pretty safe to assume that neither will diplo.

Malpighiacea certainly do root from leaf cuttings , I've done it a few times now with caapi

[ThunderIdeal]

Edit to remove stupid

Nice zombie thread. Anyone got this plant pumping yet?

Edited March 22, 2016 by ThunderIdeal