Why you should NOT smoke Salvia divinorum!

[Garbage]

I for one like my floral wallpaper on the walls where it belongs.

[t st tantra]

read a link in the past few days about a fellow receiving salvia initiation in mexico.

he had a few sessions,with the shaman and various family members watching.

but he was always the only one dosing!?

i assumed they were not interested in taking salvia for some reason?

i wonder if they see it as something which is only done a few times in a lifetime?

or they prefer other things?maybe cos they dont feel totally comfortable with it?

t s t .

[Garbage]

Only used in difficult cases?

[mutant]

Hey Teotz, that's all you have to say to my ideas? pity man...

snorting salvia powder is another good methode which worked for me...

Huh? PH , please say more

Anyways, the other problem with extracts and quids is that they need a great amount, namely fresh plant, which isnt the easiest thing, as sally is not the easiest grower at dry seasons, at least where I am. Only tried once cultivating it, lost them all. Would love to try again... As I was more of newb then...

hey, since your' mentioning extracts , I got some coleus tar. how could I administer it a la quid? Should I dilute to oil perhaps? diterpenes is one of the suspect agents we're looking for. I'd like to avoid alcohol... but if iot's necessary how should I dilute & administer?????

Re:T

ut rather we are talking about a variety of cultures that decided [quite independently] that smoking salvia is a bad thing.

Could you be more specific on this? I mean do we know we actually tried this, or it was some superstition? I think modern mexicans smoke the leaf. Is there a specific reference for this, or just rumours???

I am surprised anyone with experience of both dmt and ayahuasca could think that the difference is as simple as the intensity. One of the most distinct difference is the perception of time on these two substances. You can go extremely high on ayahuasca by taking the dmt at the end of the inhbition period, knowing full well that it will only last 30 minutes. On the other hand you can also smoke a few cones in a row and get just as high for 30 minutes. The two 30 minutes will feel completely different. The type of visuals, depth of subconscious access, physical control, field of vision, time perception and pretty much every other descriptor of the experience will be very far apart.

don't forget there's the synergy going on with the aya . the green also shifts and synergises with every psychedelic!

So, you are saying that by quiding salvia you don't get dissociative effects?? that is has NO resemblance??? I find that very hard to beliive... but foaf never experienced aya or dmt, so...

IMO some people will not get salvias potential because they seem unable to perceive the experience outside the concept of psychedelia produced by the classic psychedelics. Psychedelia can come in many shapes.. by wine/beer and green alone... even fucking sober.

Anyway... smoking leaf seems like a very practical way to ingest it, it only takes a bit. Talking about health issues, well, what about health issues from alcohol and smokes? lol. different lifestyles and approaches, adn types of people and different psychoactives involved.. I find these statistics very interesting..

It's really simple: sally is a detoucher, a disso. Like I said, not really noticable in lower doses. But on larger, it produces a very weird 'bent' on perceived reality, it's almost unreal. Anesthesic-like too. That's when it's hitting hard... you can also launch to the limbo below the breakthrough and stay there, even though there might be razors 'there'. There's a certain amount of 'razor' in salvia experience one has to navigate away from. This is only done with time and going slow and conservative, rather than going for the breakthrough the first time you're on it, and do it with x20! Thats stupid. Most people get utterly confused by that experience, lol. It is interesting, but it pays to get to know the space better by slow and respectful approach, at least in the begining. Or that's what that crazy friend of mine is telling me about it...

I hope to someday try the quid myself, I am quite sure it will be different...how different, dunno..

Edited October 7, 2009 by mutant

[Garbage]

I've got the bellows ready for him.

[paradox]

i'm not quite getting these one line posts of yours garbage.....they're popping up everywhere. it's hard to grasp any sort of meaning from them.

i agree with t st, smoked sal d does have a real edginess to it. i always used to describe it like being slapped in the face by a psychedelic rubber chicken...

kadakuda mentioned something that i was thinking... that pretty much any substance will give a very different effect when smoked as opposed to eating. cannabis is a perfect example. when eaten in large quantities it can be much more akin to a long progessive psychedelic trip such as mushrooms or something but how come the spirit of cannabis doesn't mind being burned? or doesn't it? seriously...

& in general how do the genuine amazonian curandero's feel about smoked DMT as opposed to ayahuasca? has anybody ever asked one?

my general feeling is that smoked sal d probably isn't all that useful & does seem to have something undesirable about it... being bashed to death with a rubber chicken, being transported to the other side & then promptly being kicked back into everyday reality, all in about 2 mins can be more like trauma than shamanism...

then again i think smoked dmt can be just as traumatic & more so. it can be a very hard experience to integrate but even still it seems to be very educational. imo more so than smoked sal d.

[Torsten]

Could you be more specific on this? I mean do we know we actually tried this, or it was some superstition? I think modern mexicans smoke the leaf. Is there a specific reference for this, or just rumours???

do we know we actually tried what? your question doesn't make sense.

As for the fact that mexicans traditionally did not smoke salvia, every ethnobotanist that went into salvia areas noted the same attitude and rules regarding salvia and smoking. Sure, it's impossible to prove the negative [and I am sure the odd mexican choofed sally on the sly], but from a traditional perspective we can be rpetty sure that salvia was not smoked.

don't forget there's the synergy going on with the aya .

Huh? YOU are the one claiming the only difference is the speed. Remember, I was the one who said they are different

Anyway, if by synergy you meant the additional effects from aya, above and beyond the MAO inhibition, then a comparison with moclebemide [which has pretty much no effect on it's own on most people] might help you understand.

So, you are saying that by quiding salvia you don't get dissociative effects?? that is has NO resemblance??? I find that very hard to beliive... but foaf never experienced aya or dmt, so...

Funny how people with NO experience tend to have the strongest opinions. Consume the plants and you will have your own answers.

Quids will have very little dissociative effect. You can get to a level 4 on the salvia scale,which is fully dissociative with smoked salvia, but almost no dissociation for the oral method.

There is very little resemblance. Like I said, if you give an experienced salvia smoker a tincture or quid, most would not be able to recognise it.

[mutant]

[mutant is loaded]

I think I undestand 50% of those garbage one-liners. English humour? I dig it, the percent of it I understand I would love to read garbage bigger posts.

Re:T

Could you be more specific on this? I mean do we know we actually tried this, or it was some superstition? I think modern mexicans smoke the leaf. Is there a specific reference for this, or just rumours???

do we know we actually tried what? your question doesn't make sense.

sorry for the misunderstanding, it was a typo.

I meant

...do we know THEY actually tried this, [not WE]

also, I missed something in my last post: To mention I totally agree with almost everything you said and being very glad to read your thoughts, except those parts quoted to further the arguement ..

I hope I can contribute 1/10 here in this forum of what I have learnt from here . It's a good mark. And I am quite sure T, you're big part of what's hapening here. Not meaning to be disrespectful to you man, this thread has become a very interesting thread. Thanks to Teotz, sure yeah, every guy and gal can and will contribute to the thing, I am not at all closefisted when it comes to giving credit. SO yeah, cheerz to Teotz for starting threads of archetypical interest/// cheers to that... foafs just phoned me and said he's doing another green smoke... that bastid!

I am open up you guys you can use me as I can use you. I am drunk. and happy. and father mutha friend mescalina is with me. yea yeah, because spirit is me.

regarding aya, I mean haramalalalalaloids have their own space which is actually regarded the major 'spirit' by most traditional practicers... so when comparing aya and smoked dmt, you have the obvious difference, apart from oral dmt intake VS freebase smoked, the harmalo-effect, even if it's as low as maoi effect only ~ slight harmaloid effects , like 1,5~3 gr of syrian rue . and here comes the understudied subject of smoking harmalodimitrioid mixtures. I am sure tst friends would have something to say about this, no?

I have to add here, foaf hasn't had ever tried haramaloidalakatropics, alone, legal were we're at... In what I understand, maois are a great potentiator, not unlike cannabis, now that we're talking about it...

and, about the main topic, ok, I haven't tried quid, and now I am challenged to try to quid on my material. It's valid no? not doing it first thing tomorow, just offering to do the experiment... Oh, and , I have strong opinions because I usually have formed them myself, usually first having everything questioned and challenged, then forming own opinions.... the punk way, the be yourself thing.

boooooy I'm so 'loaded'. euphoric. foaf says green , after nice social meeting, food and wine.... bridge spirit talking through me god damn it I tell you, been 5-6 days, you hear G*P, Chiral, garbage, ThunderIdeal, and all others. situationist shit huh... and fine greek battle hiphop playing?? uh?? yeah great........^&%*&&^$&^&*(98......&(*&)(......}{}:>}_+*(*&)(_+{{":>":>{+|)&*(_+*(&&^*()+>>

what was the topic... sorry sorry,

oh oh

the arguement... yeah.. xodarap, have you ever tried back then when it was legal, to smoke sally leaf in moderation, in special setting etc ??? I mean little by little, one smoke per day the first attempts and so?? IMO slow is always the way for self experimentation... and it has ALWAYS paid, guys I tell you always! or maybe that only me....

it's pretty sure sally is heavily dose-influenced experience... quiding/tincturing seems like a more sophisticated way of intaking the agent in question... dunno much, I admit... thankfully will be attempting in the future...

sorry for the ranting............

Edited October 8, 2009 by mutant

[paradox]

hows the hangover bro?

[mutant]

Very rare do I get a hangover from alcohol, thanks for asking though

But if I combine it with sally/tropane smoke/amanitas it's always there, mild, but evident... next day

I hope I haven't written much bullshit in that last post of mine, I am afraid to read it now, got to go anyway...

EDIT[edit]: it's a NOT bad post, in act I like it. it has a mistake though:

thankfully will be attempting in the future...

that was hopefully not thankfully

Edited October 16, 2009 by mutant

[mauve]

Interesting post ! By the way, mutant, quidding works with dried leaves too. Welcome to the bitter world of oral Salvia

Edited October 16, 2009 by mauve

[Thelema]

For what it's worth, I too have had an 'intuition' from SD that it hates being burnt. Sure, this is from the paradigm of the plant-spirit, and it is not rejoindable through reasoned conversation. But I manage to keep these contained within me without leakage, and I thought I'd share...

edit: more than that though is the intuition I have had on SD concerning alcohol. Whoa! This couple is at war!

Edited October 16, 2009 by Huichol_Eyebrow

[t st tantra]

For what it's worth, I too have had an 'intuition' from SD that it hates being burnt. Sure, this is from the paradigm of the plant-spirit, and it is not rejoindable through reasoned conversation. But I manage to keep these contained within me without leakage, and I thought I'd share...

edit: more than that though is the intuition I have had on SD concerning alcohol. Whoa! This couple is at war!

interesting that i found it accepted burning with the right plant friends.

t s t .

[mauve]

I did remember (with Sally's help of course) what the quidding experience remind me of: Banisteriopsis caapi without additives. Those two plants shares something, i find the same tonality in the visuals and there is a kind of warm "personnality,( tropical ladies for sure ! ) that i find absent from the smoke experience. It is not a question of intensity or speed, low doses of smoked Salvia aren't like low doses quids.

[naja naja]

I find smoked sally very aggressive, arguementative and buzzy. Quid I have not tried, but will soon after these reports. I find the difference between changa and DMT FB alone such a dramatically diff experience also, then also changing the admixtures in the changa mix, sum produced widely diff effects. Evgen from admixtures that shouldn't be active, damiana, blu lotus, white trumpets, nono leaf, etc diff ratios and mixtures all provide very diff effects. So wats going on, is it plant spirits, chemical composition, placebo effects (unlikely from blind testing) or a combo f several factors? I think these questions as to why are irrelevant except for science. Just use each for it's best purpose, as is all medicine done.

2cents

[mutant]

edit: more than that though is the intuition I have had on SD concerning alcohol. Whoa! This couple is at war!

YEs they are at war indeed! But, in moderation and in certain mood foaf has more than once with some herb and some beer combined and had a glowing experience.

but

interesting that i found it accepted burning with the right plant friends.

this also seems to be true.

so was it the herb that helped my friend to combine sally & alcohol in a glowing experience?

Edited October 24, 2009 by mutant

[apothecary]

Sieberts original paper is available for free: http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/93/6/763 makes it plainly obvious that salvinorins are present in the fresh leaves (largely contained on the trichomes) at all 6 stages of growth. From my own research, I understand that the majority of traditional preparation took place using a wetted metate as T mentioned, with the resulting "juice" being consumed sublingually.

Not too many people came to see T Munros talk at EGA, to me it was one of the best, we had a real live Salvia researcher in our midst and everyone was off busy telling each other "how it really is", much like this thread.

and, about the main topic, ok, I haven't tried quid, and now I am challenged to try to quid on my material. It's valid no? not doing it first thing tomorow, just offering to do the experiment... Oh, and , I have strong opinions because I usually have formed them myself, usually first having everything questioned and challenged, then forming own opinions.... the punk way, the be yourself thing.

Perhaps in the future instead of getting drunk and running amok on threads where you haven't bothered to check your facts or even provide your own experience we could all go for a bit of scientific rigor and actual content contribution? If you don't understand what I mean I suggest going back and reading this thread from the beginning.

[Teotzlcoatl]

Y'all lost me.

[Atlas]

This argument becomes particularly important when we look at the potential harm of a substance. Like the silly little restrictions on which part of the kava plants to use or avoid, which when ignored by arrogant westeners ended in deaths, misery, and legal restrictions.

I didn't know kava could end in death, is this due to doing alot of exercise after consuming large amounts or is it actually from using wrong parts of the plant, i can't find a thread or net info regarding this.

Or is it due to liver toxcitiy?

Edited November 20, 2009 by Atlas

[Teotzlcoatl]

I think he is referring to the fact the western extracts of Kava are sometimes made from the entire plants (at least they used to be) this is what cause liver damage.

Kava roots have been used for 1000s of years and are totally safe.

But that is off topic... let's move back to Salvia divinorum discussion.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Teotzlcoatl

[t st tantra]

Y'all lost me.

at last !

it's taken long enough !

t s t .

unable to resist the presented opportunity.....

[Teotzlcoatl]

Haha

I always liked you T st tantra!

You often post one-liners as well!

Edited November 20, 2009 by Teotzlcoatl

[mutant]

apothecary,

My posts in this thread are good and relevant, maybe you should reread what I have written... I have already taken two steps back from the personal level, why are your doing this again? What do you mean I should check my facts or provide my own experience?

Here's my personal experience

[Chiral]

at last !

it's taken long enough !

t s t .

unable to resist the presented opportunity.....

Bahahahahahahah....oooohhhh Tst, even you my friend are not strong enough to resist the Teotz poke... Oh I'm sooooo disillusioned now, the supreme guide of Ethno healing, guidance of peace and humbleness, has stepped into the pool of internet degradation.

You make feel the need to wash your self over and over again and then dose a double dose of Aya after weakening to post a Teotz stab, and I suggest you do so, asap.

[highdroponics]

I'm actually interested in whether or not an MAOI would work in combination with salvia much like DMT. The quid method is a bit harsh, but I'm sure miracle berry will help with the bitterness.