The case against the spirit world model of psychedelic action.

[santiago]

Found this information very good reading, enjoy

The Case Against the Spirit World Model of Psychedelic Action

By James Kent

Overview: Psychedelic Drugs and Mysticism

Since the dawn of time humans have ascribed mystical properties to those things they do not fully understand. In ancient times as to this day, humans worshipped the sun, the earth, the moon, the stars, the plants, animals, and a pantheon of invisible all-powerful deities. Yet as the mortal powers of science have scrutinized the material world it has become clearer and clearer that spirits forces have little to do with workings of our reality. From the quantum scale to the furthest reaches of space we have found no room for pixies, demons or demigods, and this is widely accepted to be true within every modern field of scientific research save for one: Psychedelics.

Psychedelics are an interesting case study in mysticism for two very simple reasons: they produce mystical experiences and have a long history of traditional ritual use in order to produce mystical experiences. Because these substances are mystically effective and come pre-loaded with archetypal spiritual dogma, they can effectively be passed from generation to generation as secret keys to unlocking mystical experience. In modern times Gordon Wasson, Timothy Leary, and Terence McKenna all sold the notion of mushrooms, LSD, and DMT as gateways to hidden spirit knowledge, higher consciousness, and higher dimensions. For many modern psychedelic users the entheogenic or mystical context is the primary context in which they seek these drugs, and many hope to find a full-blown religious experiences awaiting them on the other side. And, in truth, many of them are not disappointed.

It is somewhat fashionable in the psychedelic community to use the term "entheogen" to describe all psychedelics and intoxicating plants, even though psychedelic substances are just as likely to produce delusional paranoia as divine awakenings. And while psychedelics can reliably produce mystical mind states – including communion with spirits, aliens, elves, and gods – I assert that it is naive and dangerous to use the content of the psychedelic experience as the basis for wider spiritual belief. In the U.S.A. we have a constitution which protects religious belief, so it is understandable why psychedelic enthusiasts rush to promote psychedelics as a religious endeavor to legitimize their use. Similar to those who would explore the medical use of psychedelics, the spiritual approach is always one of the first places an enthusiast will go in order to retain some credibility in the light of prohibition, and it is perfectly reasonable. But do we really have to believe it?

As someone who has explored psychedelics for some time with the full intent to verify these spiritual claims, I must say I have come up with few reasons to believe the mythology of the psychedelic spirit world any longer. Although psychedelics can produce spiritual experiences, and can have bona-fide therapeutic effects, I have found very little which would lead me to believe that spirit entities from autonomous spirit worlds are responsible for the informational content or healing powers of these experiences. And with that in mind, I now present my best case against this notion of psychedelic spirit worlds and spirit teachers, and why it can be dangerous to blithely conflate psychedelics and spirituality.

The Rational Argument

1. Psychedelics are hallucinogenic drugs, which by definition means they make you see things that aren't real. Whatever other argument I present here, this is the one you must always come back to. Some hallucinations, particularly those that are spiritual in nature, feel very real. But the same drug that can make you see spirits can make you see demons, memories, mandalas, mundane scenes from everyday life, and just about anything you can think of (and many things you can't). However, no matter how real or bizarre or lifelike or spiritual the experience, it all fades back to dust when the drug wears off; the pocket holographic universe in your mind folds back into 3-D space and the dream is over. Let it go.

2. Psychedelics are about the self; they are a form of self-exploration. You get out of the experience what you put into the experience. If you have a spiritual experience it is because you are a spiritual person or at a spiritual place in your thinking; if you have a bad experience it is because you are at a bad place in your life or are being destructive or negative in your thinking. You would not blame the gods for a bad trip or even a mediocre trip with no mystical fireworks, so why would you give them credit for the good ones? In other words, you are not an empty vessel passively receiving the mystical experience, you are the biological organism that is producing it.

3. Simply because you heard voices or saw gods or met elves does not mean that the experience has any deeper meaning beyond your own imagination. It is much easier to prove the case for delusional psychosis than it is to invoke an entire spirit world to explain your personal insights, so why make the spirit leap just because it "felt real" at the time. Dreams also feel real, but we tend to dismiss them because they are weirdly surreal, easy to forget, and we are sleeping at the time. We should have the same kind of removed perspective for our psychedelic experiences as well. We can use the content of the experience to see what it tells us about ourselves, but should not blindly rush to believe everything that comes out.

The Physical Argument

1. The human brain perceives reality on a very narrow spectrum of visible light and audible sound waves, this is how external information enters into waking thought. The human brain is a biological device, and in order to "see" something there must be electrochemical stimulation in the visual cortex. If you are making the case for spirit beings or invisible landscapes that can only be seen under the influence of psychedelics, you are making a case for the human brain being a kind of radio that can detect "spirit energy" that no other camera or mechanical energy-sensing device can perceive. While this is an interesting argument, it makes no sense. If there is a spirit energy out there that the human brain can perceive, other more sensitive devices should be able to perceive this spirit energy as well, yet none exist. Invoking the clause of "only I can see it (when I'm on drugs)" makes the claims of psychonauts all the more far-fetched, and when you ascribe spirit powers to visions produced by a chemical that naturally bonds to receptors in your visual cortex, it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how neurochemical stimulation of the neocortex results in perception. The visions are from the psychoactive molecule exciting neural activity within your brain, not from spirits emitting external waves on a higher-dimensional frequency that only you can perceive.

2. If there are autonomous spirits and a spirit world that the human mind can perceive, then these spirit formations must be made out of something. In order to morph and cohere and reflect light and create sound vibrations that the retina or cortex or neural network can perceive, these entities have to have some substrate in which to exist. Without resorting to alternate dimensions or dark matter which exist within the brain or within the psychedelic molecules themselves, the average psychonaut has no answer as to what it is the spirit world may be made out of or where we might find it. Some may try to invoke higher vibrations or alternate dimensions, but all of this speculation requires a mystical gateway to information in a spirit realm, and neither gateway nor information nor realm has any physical fingerprint in hard reality other than the firing of neurons in a brain. Attempting to externalize psychedelic visions into a spiritual framework only creates more questions than it answers, when all that is needed to produce psychedelic visions is a human neural network and a pinch of selective seratonin agonists.

The Psychosis Argument

1. While there has been no satisfactory objective proof demonstrating that a spirit world exists, there has been an abundance of proof demonstrating that psychosis exists, and that the human mind is perfectly capable of fabricating detailed alternate realities without the aid of drugs or spirits. There have been many models of psychosis offered, including the dopamine model of psychosis and the cholinergic model of mediating waking/dreaming states. Hallucinations, mystical experience, and delusions of grandeur are par for the course with psychosis – as is paranoia and irrational belief – yet many people who use psychedelics spiritually or recreationally are not fond of using the term "acute psychosis" to describe the effects, though this description clearly fits in high dose cases.

2. While psychedelics may give some people insights and an expanded consciousness, they can also lead to irrational behavior and the degradation of reason. In very simple terms, there is a psychedelic use threshold that eventually leads to mental irrationality in the user. It is unknown what this precise threshold is, and it is probably different for every person, but chronic use of high-dose psychedelics can either exacerbate existing psychotic tendencies or lead to other forms of mental irrationality, such as self-professed clairvoyance or telepathic contact with aliens, spirits, deities, and the like. Are these long-term effects best termed spiritual enlightenment or chronic recurrent delusional psychosis?

The Validation Argument

1. If we are to throw out all the arguments posed so far and concede for a moment that psychedelics offer some access to the wisdom of the spirits, there are still a few problems. In order to prove the autonomy of the spirits encountered on a psychedelic trip, various tests have been proposed to see if new information can be gleaned in the spirit dimension. According to traditional lore, shamen are able to use psychedelics to diagnose and cure disease, divine the use of plants, find missing objects, and perhaps even see the future. These all seem like very magical and mystical things when posed in that context, but if you take into account that human beings can do all of those things already, without the aide of psychedelic drugs, then you start to see how flimsy the whole spirit-knowledge thing becomes. There are a few famous reported cases of people making amazing discoveries with the aid of psychedelics, but the people who make these discoveries are usually brilliant to begin with. It would be one thing if history was filled with tales of Navaho wizards finding the secret cure for smallpox, Mayan wizards finding the secret formula for gunpowder, Or Amazonian wizards finding the magical power to save the rainforests, but we know the opposite is true. When faced with real hard-world technology, the sacred wisdom offered by the psychedelic spirit realm shows its painful limitations.

2. If information is actually received from the spirit world during the psychedelic session, then it has become patently obvious that much of the information from the spirit world is not to be trusted. Even traditional shaman warn of trickery and deceit from the spirit realm, so what good is their data? One would assume that if you were to commune with actual spirits that they wouldn't steer you wrong, but often they do. So what are we to make of their purpose, and why would we place such importance on their knowledge? Clinging to the spirit delusion forces one to adopt paradoxical conclusions such as "Spirit entities exist, but they confound and play tricks in order to make it impossible to objectively test their data and thus prove their own existence." As far-fetched as this statement may seem, many people willingly ignore all the other evidence and swallow such spirit logic as long as it allows them to retain the belief in these entities. The other option, which is "Perhaps I just imagined it all while high on drugs," seems overly simple in comparison, and yet the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

The Dangerous Argument

1. If psychedelics are considered to be spiritual, and spiritual is good, then it should be good and spiritual to do as many psychedelics as we want. This may sound right on paper, but it is hardly a guarantee in the real world. People who approach psychedelics with a spiritual attitude may be less likely to abuse them, but others may cloak rampant abuse in spiritual terms to make their destructive behavior seem more legitimate. And even those who are spiritually rigorous and limit their use still run the risk of becoming occult, messianic, megalomaniacal, and delusional in their larger spiritual beliefs. While the usual result of this process is merely a spiritual quirkiness or New Age eccentricity, it is not unheard of for these initial quirky beliefs to turn dark, experimentally risqué, and antisocial after prolonged use. There is a line that must be watched here, the spiritual argument does not hold for all personal use models.

2. The greatest untold secret of religion is that the shaman (priests) invented spirits and the spirit world in order to gain power within the tribe. Yes, it sounds cynical, but it is the truth. Think about those who invoke spirits to back up their edicts and see what you think. Invoking spirits give legitimacy to the shaman's decrees. If the shaman thinks the tribe should move down-river he tells the tribes that the spirits want the tribe to move down river, and that they will be angered if they don't comply. It is easy to argue with a shaman, it is harder to argue with the spirits. Since the shaman is the tribe's mediator to the spirit world, the power to intoxicate the tribe and give them spiritual visions only enhances the shaman's power and ability to influence the tribe by spiritual deception. With tribe members of lesser intelligence a clever shaman can have them thinking and believing whatever he tells them, and this is as true today as it was ten thousand years ago.

3. If psychedelic spiritual practice is to be rigorously imposed it must be done so in the framework of institutionalized, organized religion. The traditional shamanic model is a blend of paganism, animism, and pantheism, and it has been demonstrated by syncretic offshoots like Santo Daime that these traditional religious practices can be further blended with the practices of Christianity, Catholicism, and Buddhism to some degree of success. However, for every successful syncretic church there lies the risk of rogue cults or cult leaders who use the trappings of syncretic rituals as venues for sexual exploitation, antisocial programming, and cult brainwashing. The oversight in organized psychedelic churches must be just as rigorous if not more so than in mainstream churches; the potential for abuse of power is simply too high for this trend to go unchecked. In smaller psychedelic cults there is no oversight for spiritual abuse, so this document is their oversight. Don't believe psychedelic gurus.

What to Believe about Psychedelics?

While I would say that the evidence against psychedelics as a gateway to the spirit world is overwhelming, there are many who still hold out the hope or belief that this is a viable theory. It is my assertion that people who have spiritual experiences on psychedelics have merely awakened a spiritual aspect within themselves by entering into the experience with a spiritual mind-set. The content of any psychedelic trip is typically the result of the context in which the substance is ingested and the spiritual or entheogenic trip is merely one of many possible results. Within the proper sacred ritual setting, the ingestion of a psychedelic will result in a bona-fide mystical experience and this is something we should not forget. Within this entheogenic experience the user may hear voices; see spirits and disincarnate entities; feel the presence of God or Gaia or the other; or perhaps have an astral journey where they leave their body and travel through time, to alternate dimensions, or across the barrier of life and death and into the spirit world. These are all what we would expect from a decent and fulfilling mystical experience, and it is true that psychedelics can, in the right conditions, deliver these experiences with far greater ease than any other technique known to humans. This fact is almost indisputable at this point.

The psychedelic experience is very sacred and awe-inspiring, so it seems logical that any information revealed within the experience should be considered divine in origin; all-important. And yet, when the all-important message from the spirit-journey is eventually remembered or filtered down or revealed in a sober mind-state, it is often riddle-like and vague, or something that seemed important at the time but is in reality quite mundane, or something that is fascinating or meaningful only to the subject who received the epiphany, or flat obvious to everyone else in hindsight. This muddled-message syndrome can leave the subject feeling depressed and isolated for days after any full-blown mystical psychedelic contact. Like an alien abduction, the experience is so strange and absurd and startling and crazy that people may feel unable to talk about their experiences in any meaningful way without making loved-ones worry about their sanity. It can be elating and devastating at the same instant, so how does one integrate such experiences back into the mundane doings of hard reality?

When this feeling of spiritual isolation turns outward it leads to art and story and perhaps even mythology, turning the psychedelic experience into a metaphoric icon that can be shared with others. When this isolation turns inward it becomes occult philosophy and metaphysical belief that weaves itself like a circle into pseudo-religious dogmatic forms. The cyclical path between these two outward and inward extremes should be familiar to anyone who experiments seriously with psychedelic drugs. People who use psychedelics for any length of time will also experiment with visual art, music, the manipulation of language, and the creation of occult belief systems. This ongoing process of turning entheogenic experience into shared cultural form only serves to strengthen and enlarge the archetype of the invisible landscape we think of as the "psychedelic space". Where there was one only plant-spirits, jaguars, snakes, icaros and santitios, now there are machine elves, hyperspatial aliens, wicked jesters, trance music, and even Elvis, Mickey Mouse, Jesus, Mary, Buddha, Yahweh, and all the old-world Hindu deities along for the ride. Hence, the spirit world is not a fixed autonomous space, it is a epiphenomenona of our own cultural imagination which grows and shrinks in proportion with our own subjective cultural awareness. The psychedelic space is not autonomous, it is a reflection of who we are.

Conclusion

There is no doubt that there is a fundamental connection between spiritual experience and belief in a spirit world, and the more powerful the spiritual experience the more powerful the belief; this is an easy assumption to make. Since psychedelics offer such powerful spiritual experiences, it is easy to see why people view psychedelics as spiritual objects and craft elaborate rituals and mythologies regarding their use and purpose. This is a very natural human thing to do, and in many ways it is easier to invoke spirits and a spirit world than it is to believe that your brain is capable of such profound experiences.

But we must not lose sight of the fact that the human imagination allows for the infinite exploration of all possible forms, a feat which is mystical and godlike in its own capacity. By activating the human imagination in such a dramatic way, psychedelics give us raw access to that infinite well of godlike creation. When we designate psychedelic content as spiritual in origin we dismiss the wondrous capacity of the human imagination, simultaneously denigrating our own creative capacities and undermining all testable reason. It must stop.

And thus I say that we as a culture should abandon this notion of a psychedelic theology once and for all, and reject the claims of any expert or shaman or guru who claims intimate access to sacred psychedelic spirits, spirit realms, or mystical secrets. Instead of pondering over spirit dimensions and non-physical entities we should stay focused on the miracle of the human mind and the human body, and the notion that psychedelics can unlock the self-reflective power of the mind to produce infinite permutations of complex forms, for good or for bad, mystical or mundane. This is their true function and their gift, and we should not lose sight of that simple power.

Excerpted from Psychedelic Information Theory, by James Kent

[Alchemica]

Thanks for the article, one for the insomniacs....

And thus I say that we as a culture should abandon this notion of a psychedelic theology once and for all, and reject the claims of any expert or shaman or guru who claims intimate access to sacred psychedelic spirits, spirit realms, or mystical secrets. Instead of pondering over spirit dimensions and non-physical entities we should stay focused on the miracle of the human mind and the human body, and the notion that psychedelics can unlock the self-reflective power of the mind to produce infinite permutations of complex forms, for good or for bad, mystical or mundane. This is their true function and their gift, and we should not lose sight of that simple power.

I think making a case against a "Spirit World Model" is dangerous for some of those who venture into the unknown realms of consciousness (often getting there accidently).

I might be a unique case but I feel that using a 'spirit world model' for basing my thoughts and visions on, when I was medically psychotic, was the ONLY way my brain could rationalise what I'd experienced. I'd been a pure evidence based science-only person before then, but when things went bad, science and evidence-based rationale was not suitable for integrating the sensory experiences with "mentally logic" that was understandable. After days of seeing/hearing stuff that wasn't really there and having no control at all, attempting to rationalise what I'd experienced with spirit and mystical dimensions was my only way to hang onto the last fragments of sanity and understanding.

No way could I have escaped from my psychotic states by merely rationalising everything as being wonderful brain-candy. I had no choice but to put some reliance in the unknown mystical aspects just to integrate my mind-state enough to escape the realms of psychosis.

"Spirits" and other mystical entities will remain as the main tools my brain will use to interpret a altered state if it needs to... and I'd definitely encourage anyone who found themselves in a "reality" they didn't like to expand on mysticism and spirits to guide their trip. I think that it can be hard for some psychonauts to interpret, integrate and expand into the real world their experiences, without some reliance on mythical spirits and the like.

Not saying spirits etc. exist, but they seem to be a healthy way to understand what goes on in ones mind... even if the brain did wonderfully construct the illusions out of nothing.

Are these long-term effects best termed spiritual enlightenment or chronic recurrent delusional psychosis?

I like to think that it's spiritual enlightenment...

If ones developed frame of mind helps a person to have a happy and meaningful life without harming others, who should tell them that they are crazy with "chronic recurrent delusional psychosis" and force them to reconsider the meaning of life? Shouldn't we be entitled to freedom of thought?

Edited May 15, 2009 by The Alchemist

[ThunderIdeal]

i want to give this a proper read but the conclusion is really well said and i find it agreeable, without necessarily saying there is nothing "beyond" about psychadelic experiences.

[Chiral]

the question that keeps entering my mind is...people see spirits, ghosts, entities, the devil etc etc without using any psychedelics....there are millions of instances and reports of ordinary people seeing things...a deep meditative state can have you entering a DMT like state I have heard...no drugs used there...people swear black and blue they have seen ghosts or aliens and some have reported being abducted...no evidence but the point is these are not psychedelic related.

Mass sightings of UFO's caught on film...what about that stuff...clairvoyants bringing up the dead to converse with family...Ouija boards...many sightings of the virgin Mary and Jesus from people not under the influence of any psychedelics. Voodoo, witchcraft, faith healing...what about all this stuff...i mean shouldn't it all be lumped in with James Kents theory...lets have some consistancy before we report that psychelics do nothing more than trick the mind and cause nothing but hallucinations....obviously I am very pro psychedelics and always have been ...I have great faith in them and believe they are here for a reson...one which we haven't worked out yet...

think about this question ... what if there had never been any discovery of any psychedelics to this day and there still had not been anything like that ever found...can you wonder how different your life would be and how much different the world would be.

H.

[santiago]

the question that keeps entering my mind is...people see spirits, ghosts, entities, the devil etc etc without using any psychedelics....there are millions of instances and reports of ordinary people seeing things...a deep meditative state can have you entering a DMT like state I have heard...no drugs used there...people swear black and blue they have seen ghosts or aliens and some have reported being abducted...no evidence but the point is these are not psychedelic related.

Mass sightings of UFO's caught on film...what about that stuff...clairvoyants bringing up the dead to converse with family...Ouija boards...many sightings of the virgin Mary and Jesus from people not under the influence of any psychedelics. Voodoo, witchcraft, faith healing...what about all this stuff...i mean shouldn't it all be lumped in with James Kents theory...lets have some consistancy before we report that psychelics do nothing more than trick the mind and cause nothing but hallucinations....obviously I am very pro psychedelics and always have been ...I have great faith in them and believe they are here for a reson...one which we haven't worked out yet...

think about this question ... what if there had never been any discovery of any psychedelics to this day and there still had not been anything like that ever found...can you wonder how different your life would be and how much different the world would be.

H.

Good point but this has all been disproven in very simple ways many times. Even for a layman like me its a simple open and shut case. people who see ghosts, devils etc while totally straight are mad, perhaps always been or suddenly chemically inbalanced in the brain somehow.

There is no doubt meditation can produce dream like states, this has been known for thousands of years however is out of reach of the general populace as it takes time, patience and dedication, skills according to credit card dept as a general example, few people have. Of couse people swear balck and blue they saw stuff eg aliens as they did see it, in their head but of course nobody else did.

Mass UFO sightings- weather balloons, clouds, planes, lightning.

Clairvoyants- clever people with the gift of educated guessing.

Ouija- Wishful thinking and positive use of subliminal pushing and pulling.

Mary and Jesus- religious fanatics trying to push the cause.

Voodoo- A mixture of herbs given as a tonic

Witchcraft- Story telling

Faith Healing- Positive thinking

The only problem i have no matter how much i want to believe, is the fact whilst not even 1 percent of the population has been involved in 'mysteries of the unexplained' there is another 99% that have not and there is not a shred of hard evidence anywhere, not one thing that can prove beyond doubt, anything other than human imagination and scam is responsible.

[GingaNinja]

Even for a layman like me its a simple open and shut case. people who see ghosts, devils etc while totally straight are mad, perhaps always been or suddenly chemically inbalanced in the brain somehow.

Are you serious that its that simple?

As a young kid me and my bro used to see a deceased great aunty in the same place doing the same thing and cos it freaked us out we did not tell anyone about it initially. When one of us finally talked about it, it was a spin out to hear that my bro ahd experienced the exact same thing as me, yet we never knew the other was experiencing it.

Now im far from sane but for this to happen suggests there a bit more to it then the 'open shut case' you suggest it is.

[ThunderIdeal]

doesn't seem like you want to believe at all you are happy to write off paranormal phenomenon with explanations that a child could come up with.

[ThunderIdeal]

explain this with weather balloons

 

the large straight object is a man made cable glowing in the sun so it appears thick. based on the UFO's which fly behind it, it's calculated that they are incredibly large, whatever they are (the tether cable was 12 miles long). this was filmed on an infrared setting i believe, from a space shuttle, it is official nasa footage but it's only a fragment of the released footage.

if this doesn't constitute some kind of evidence of unexplainable flying objects to you then i'm afraid you'd PREFER not to believe. open shut case IMHO, you're not a skeptic you've just already made up your mind.

Edited May 19, 2009 by ThunderIdeal

[santiago]

To use an old phrase 'i want to believe'.

Since i was a child a vast amount of my reading time was based on mysteries of the unexplained. Every book in the library was taken out over and over, anything i could watch or listen too was done. Ouija was a pretty freaky experience, as a teenager it seemed the key to the supernatural was opened, only to have a friend admit 15 years later it was a hoax, instigated by him. None of the predictions came true.

To further infuriate the believers, as i get older it seems that children, teenagers, young adults need to believe in something supernatural, we all deep down want to believe me have monkey magic powers, or as we go to sleep dream of flying, or having powers. You want to feel special. Then you get a little older and before you know it your imagination subsides just a little, no longer is it as fun to play chasey with your friends and life is overwhelmed with tasks, like working, bringing up kids, keeping the car running, rent inspections, visiting the parents, dinner parties etc etc etc and you start to realise that there is nothing really special about you, more than likely you will never make a change to the world, your bones are getting more brittle by the day, your breath stinks after coffee and that the dreamworld you once imagined in fact does not exist and that within the next 50 years your grandchildren will be laying flowers on your coffin.

Only then will the truth be revealed.

[folias]

Personally, I feel completely refreshed and inspired by contact with the spirit world.

And it doesn't cause me any ontological confusion or need to explain anything to anyone...

The human mind and imagination is not as powerful as what one can experience on psychedelics... simply because, you often just don't see anything like what you see and experience in any of the worlds art or imagery.

The world is in fact, a very magical place.

It is hard to take what people say seriously if they cannot acknowledge that, especially those who have had access to psychedelics.

Julian.

[ThunderIdeal]

"you start to realise that there is nothing really special about you, more than likely you will never make a change to the world,"

i don't think this is what the author of the article was trying to say.

forgive my presumption but you seem to have the same agenda as a troll we used to get named 'onemind'. i don't think i'm gonna tangle with you anymore, enjoy your stay, i hope you are nothing like onemind.

[paradox]

Then you get a little older and before you know it your imagination subsides just a little, no longer is it as fun to play chasey with your friends and life is overwhelmed with tasks, like working, bringing up kids, keeping the car running, rent inspections, visiting the parents, dinner parties etc etc etc and you start to realise that there is nothing really special about you, more than likely you will never make a change to the world, your bones are getting more brittle by the day, your breath stinks after coffee and that the dreamworld you once imagined in fact does not exist and that within the next 50 years your grandchildren will be laying flowers on your coffin.

Only then will the truth be revealed.

woah man, with a outlook like that life must really suck. i feel sorry for you bro

what you just explained there seems to me to be just as much a product of your conditioning in a consumerist capatalist society as say a traditional indigenous persons world view is conditioned to believe in the 'spirit world'

as far as i'm concerned, the universe is more complex than we'll ever know & unfortunately in our society we're conditioned to simply be desensitized cogs in a machine & this kind of life isn't very conducive to developing our sensitivities & experiencing the more subtle aspects of nature.

you say meditation is out of reach for the general populace but that isn't true. you can make your own choice about the life style you live & we have vast amounts of information available to us.

there are many many examples like the one ginganinja gave. the thing is, they are personal experiences & are not really measurable.

i personally don't believe in anything. i just know our world is much more complex & interesting then many of us give it credit for & unfortunately the dominant cultural view is in complete denial of anything which is beyond blatant gross physicality.

consumerism depends on the population being this way but you don't have to buy into that shit. i don't know, work shorter hours or something & spend some time meditating. sharpen your awareness & develop your capacity to experience the subtler aspects of life. IMO only if you do that is your opinion worth shit when you're talking about these things because unfortunately your average jo-blow's perceptive apparatus are so hopelessly unrefined that (as i said) he's generally totally unable to sense anything beyond absolutely gross physicality & if you're unable to experience something then you're not gonna have a very balanced & worthwhile opinion of that thing are you?

edit: oh & you'd have to be pretty gullible to believ in ouija wouldn't you? isn't it a board game made by the same company who makes monopoly & all that?

& i'd also like to say that i think the article you posted makes some really good points but in my opinion is very short sighted

edit 2: i just re-read my post here & i seem to come across as a bit of a wanker. i don't mean anything personal to you santiago. that was just my first reaction. must have been how i was feeling that day

Edited May 25, 2009 by Paradox

[Neoshaman]

hmm james kent seems like he wants to be to occultist what dawkins is to christians actually thats whose arguements it reminded me of Dawkins very good based on critical reasoning and face value but you start to look more deeply giving equal weight to others opinions that are equally well researched and it starts to fall apart see to accept what is being said you not only have to accept James Kents idea in the highest regard you also need to dismiss some of the greatest minds in the History of man not to mention any personal experience you have of this nature I'm trying to approach this rationally so I will write a far better response when i have time vto sit down and tear shreds from this arguement just like i love to do with Dawkins nothing against you santiago as i said it raises some interesting points thanks for posting it and giving us the chance to debate these ideas

[mutant]

Well this Kent guy rocks!!!!

Many fellow experimenters have given me links to parts of the psychedelic information, but they didn't forward me to his more 'polemic' views. I like agression in thought and arguing... Is this essay relatively recent?

Re:Alchemist

QUOTE

And thus I say that we as a culture should abandon this notion of a psychedelic theology once and for all, and reject the claims of any expert or shaman or guru who claims intimate access to sacred psychedelic spirits, spirit realms, or mystical secrets. Instead of pondering over spirit dimensions and non-physical entities we should stay focused on the miracle of the human mind and the human body, and the notion that psychedelics can unlock the self-reflective power of the mind to produce infinite permutations of complex forms, for good or for bad, mystical or mundane. This is their true function and their gift, and we should not lose sight of that simple power.

I think making a case against a "Spirit World Model" is dangerous for some of those who venture into the unknown realms of consciousness (often getting there accidently).

I might be a unique case but I feel that using a 'spirit world model' for basing my thoughts and visions on, when I was medically psychotic, was the ONLY way my brain could rationalise what I'd experienced. I'd been a pure evidence based science-only person before then, but when things went bad, science and evidence-based rationale was not suitable for integrating the sensory experiences with "mentally logic" that was understandable. After days of seeing/hearing stuff that wasn't really there and having no control at all, attempting to rationalise what I'd experienced with spirit and mystical dimensions was my only way to hang onto the last fragments of sanity and understanding.

No way could I have escaped from my psychotic states by merely rationalising everything as being wonderful brain-candy. I had no choice but to put some reliance in the unknown mystical aspects just to integrate my mind-state enough to escape the realms of psychosis.

"Spirits" and other mystical entities will remain as the main tools my brain will use to interpret a altered state if it needs to... and I'd definitely encourage anyone who found themselves in a "reality" they didn't like to expand on mysticism and spirits to guide their trip. I think that it can be hard for some psychonauts to interpret, integrate and expand into the real world their experiences, without some reliance on mythical spirits and the like.

Not saying spirits etc. exist, but they seem to be a healthy way to understand what goes on in ones mind... even if the brain did wonderfully construct the illusions out of nothing.

QUOTE

Are these long-term effects best termed spiritual enlightenment or chronic recurrent delusional psychosis?

I like to think that it's spiritual enlightenment...

If ones developed frame of mind helps a person to have a happy and meaningful life without harming others, who should tell them that they are crazy with "chronic recurrent delusional psychosis" and force them to reconsider the meaning of life? Shouldn't we be entitled to freedom of thought?

Well Alchemist thanks a lot for your great and intelligent, well written comment. This is the ultimate arguement FOR the Spirit world approach and I agree with your vein. May I ask how old are you, and Hunab? I remember Hunab is older, no?

It's like, when argueing with a theist whether god exists , and some times, after some intense talk and argueing, someone tells me "Ok, you're right, but I need to believe that, I believe it and it helps me" - then I immediately end the discussion, as it has reached a kind of 'conclusion', I understand the thing, and I respect the sincerity and admitance.

I totally agree with most of Kent's essay, I was actually very delighted to see so many of my ideas outspoken by someone else, and his point on the 'spirit world' mumbo jumbo thing being used as a cheap excuse for abuse and psychedelic excitation is still there, even if some people might be helped by a 'spirit world' approach, during a crisis period [alchemist point]

...

And, IMHO, especially for mental issues like psychosis , I would advise against psychedelics use, at least in the begining, after the last episode.... The doctors who did experiment with psychotics ans schizophrenic back in the 70s, those who did are regarded risk takers, and the results are also controversial. There is evidence that it has potential, but there is also direct indication that there are many risks involved and worsening of situations. Some, maybe few people can be helped, each one is unique and you cannot disclude that some psychotic situations might be helped by drugs. I would count more on low dose salvia d for a 'cure' though, rather than high dose psychedelics, but then again each one is different. The approach of a psychotic or anyone with tendencies for psychotic episodes partaking some psychedelic, especially a classic, has to be very careful, at least twice [or ten times!] as much as a normal psychopnaut would take care for set + setting + appraoch and goals and all that...

=====

About Kent and his approach

In general I am such a guy myself, loudmouth defender of simple basic notions , simple and ultimate truths of life. I also believe experiments with psychoactives, psychdelic epifanies, afterglows etc played a major impact on my worldview, like I often say, they were catalysts, vehicles, enhancers and calibrators. Initiators.. But heck, I believe the same, in a lesser degree for cannabis as I do for the classic psychedelics.

So, when I see some phenomenon like 'psychedelic theism' [ that's what I call it actually, it's not about a 'spirit world' necessarily, it's about belief ] , some mumbo jumbo belief and approach getting bigger and bigger [not to mention the general druggie mentality] and common sense being the rare exception I cannot I cannot help but raise a sensible voice, reason, I cannot help but wonder how can it be? That's how I ended up giving up on human race, I have come to make friends with the general idiocy of humans [or we are to blame modern civilisation in part?] . Phenomenally a cynic, a misanthropist nihilist naturalist, but deeper inside, and boy have classic psychedelics showed me this [!!]/ [or i worked it out myself with psychs help?] , my emotional, good, loving self has always been there, trying to come out in some solid form. Idealism, humanitarian stuff are evoked all the time and play a big role in my life, as years come by and I come to realise more and more in the journey of life. Anyways, I am propably off topic by now ...

Psychedelics are tools. Cannabis is a psychedelic too. I think classic psychedelics have more of a load in the psyche, I actually believe that the so called classic psychedelics have some kind of 'psychotoxicity' [just a goofy term made up by me, mind you] . If you do it too much, you are 'poisoning your soul' or , if you like, you are doping your mind too much with something which WILL change you. The thing is, reality doesn't change with you, only the way you see it, you perceive reality. So, if you go waaaaaaaaaay far out, you have the matter or reintergrating with normal reality.

I accept the fact the some people manage to do a lot of classic psychedelics through their lives and live with it, being functionable and even balanced, and surely unique, in the way each one of us is / oughts to be. But

1) they are exceptions

2) i think almost all eventually cease use or reduce it to pot or meditation only OR totally freak out... Or that's my impression anyway....

I have always wondered about the personality, the persona of an old school hardhead users, ever since I heared about this thumbprint thing! I mean, if you don't accept my notion on psychotoxicity, well, be my guest and eat a thumbprint People who can do so great amount of psychedelics and be able to talk and function almost normally are some extraordinaire people, and not the norm...

those of you don't know what I talking about search thumbprint in shroomery forums

To end my position, I believe that there limits to the frequency and potency of trips one can have - if the limits are to be overided, one must be very conscious of what he is doing, and where he is going, or else he might wake up in a different reality some day....

end of transmission...

Re: Santiago

To further infuriate the believers, as i get older it seems that children, teenagers, young adults need to believe in something supernatural, we all deep down want to believe me have monkey magic powers, or as we go to sleep dream of flying, or having powers. You want to feel special. Then you get a little older and before you know it your imagination subsides just a little, no longer is it as fun to play chasey with your friends and life is overwhelmed with tasks, like working, bringing up kids, keeping the car running, rent inspections, visiting the parents, dinner parties etc etc etc and you start to realise that there is nothing really special about you, more than likely you will never make a change to the world, your bones are getting more brittle by the day, your breath stinks after coffee and that the dreamworld you once imagined in fact does not exist and that within the next 50 years your grandchildren will be laying flowers on your coffin.

nice writing + thinking ;)

to bring a bit further, there are extraordinary people, and they are not a lot, and then there are lots of mediocre people. And you got some that they are weaker and some that they are stronger. like lions, wolves or chimps. The big difference , quotin Clive Barker, horror/mystery writer, man is an animal that tells tales.

And, to end this endless argueing, being delusional might make you feel better about yourself, but it's no bona fide cure for alla bad... not is it for long if at all...

Edited May 21, 2009 by mutant

[Chiral]

I guess the one way to look at all this is...a long time ago the worlds population thought that the Earth was flat...they also at one point thought the sun revolved around the earth....you see what I am saying is just because the masses cant see it and don't have any eveidence of it yet does not mean it will not exist in the future as we find out more....do you see my point.

H.

[drugo]

arguements [is] very good based on critical reasoning and face value but you start to look more deeply giving equal weight to others opinions that are equally well researched and it starts to fall apart see to accept what is being said you not only have to accept James Kents idea in the highest regard you also need to dismiss some of the greatest minds in the History of man not to mention any personal experience you have of this nature.

I think this is probably the best point. Kent's arguments may have a certain sense of clarity and cogency, however each of his arguments are one of many arguably equally valid ideas floating around world.

It seems that a lot of his ideas have been highly influenced by Benny Shannon's phenomenological mapping of ayahuasca. A popular alternative to this rational (as in the school of philosophy) approach can be read from many, including the anthropologist Luna, or of course Strassman with his DMT experiments - if you're interested.

At the end of the day does it really matter if psychedelic experiences offer projections/reflections of you, or that the experiences offer 'external' radically knew information? I tend to think that more fundmentally, more importantly, the psychedelic experience is about the experience, YOUR experience. Regardless of holy shamans or holy PhD preachers trying to explain or define it to you.

Not being able to rationally represent or express your experiences through language, discourse, rational argument, does not necessarily have to discredit the experience. Alternatively it could discredit the limiting attempts of rationality? As neohaman stated, there are many alternatives, if you're interested in the giant conversation psychedelic and non-psychedelic researchers are having you need to appreciate the diversity of other arguably equally valid arguments.

If Kent's argument has convinced you, a lot of alternative and opposing ones written better will probably do the same.

By the way, i found the paper interesting, a bit closed overall though. I'm a bit sick of people trying to rationalise the irrational or describe the indescribable. As i said, i think it's most importantly about the experience. If anything i recon psychedelic researchers should be putting arguments together solely to break down peoples fears about psychedelics, and offer safe methods for the experience. I mean we should should at least get the whole world on the boat before we start saying where it's going right?

Below is a quote from the heroic French phiosopher Michel Foucault. It should help explain a popular idea for the nature of knowledge, and philosophical argument. Deleuze read it out at Foucault's funeral in about 1984, i think.

"What is the point of striving after knowledge [savoir] if it ensures only the aquisition of knowledges [connaisances] and not, in a certain way and to the greatest extent possible, the disorientation of he who knows? ... What is philosophy today - I mean philosophical activity - if not the critical work of thought upon thought, if it does not, rather than legitimising what one already knows, consists of an attempt to know how and to what extent it is possible to think differently."

[paradox]

i think everyone is making some good & very valid points. my main point when talking about these things would be that there are aspects of the universe that are out of reach of the rational mind & if you believe you can grasp these things & explain them rationally then you're probably similarly deluded as the person who interprets them in terms of spirits or some such things.

I feel most of us are unbalanced in the way we choose to interpret the universe. we usually fall into two catagories, those that attempt to grasp profound mysteries through rational thought alone & totally discount the limitations of rational thought in an infinitely complex universe & then there are those who scarcely give any credit to rationality & interpret everything in terms of a higher intelligence or god or spirits etc. IMO both have their place & both are very important if we are to have a healthy perspective on this profoundly complex universe we live in. both these ways of thinking are extremely limited in their scope but thats the human predicament.

now to quote a man (excessively hehe) whom i greatly admire, i refer you to the words of Dr Albert Einstein:

"The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift."

"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."

"Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble."

"The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection."

"The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious; It is the source of all true art and science."

"The human mind is not capable of grasping the Universe. We are like a little child entering a huge library. The walls are covered to the ceilings with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written these books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. But the child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books—-a mysterious order which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects."

"What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

"The finest emotion of which we are capable is the mystic emotion. Herein lies the germ of all art and all true science. Anyone to whom this feeling is alien, who is no longer capable of wonderment and lives in a state of fear is a dead man. To know that what is impenetrable for us really exists and manifests itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty, whose gross forms alone are intelligible to our poor faculties - this knowledge, this feeling ... that is the core of the true religious sentiment. In this sense, and in this sense alone, I rank myself among profoundly religious men."

edit: typo

Edited May 23, 2009 by Paradox

[holymountain]

To use an old phrase 'i want to believe'.

Since i was a child a vast amount of my reading time was based on mysteries of the unexplained. Every book in the library was taken out over and over, anything i could watch or listen too was done. Ouija was a pretty freaky experience, as a teenager it seemed the key to the supernatural was opened, only to have a friend admit 15 years later it was a hoax, instigated by him. None of the predictions came true.

To further infuriate the believers, as i get older it seems that children, teenagers, young adults need to believe in something supernatural, we all deep down want to believe me have monkey magic powers, or as we go to sleep dream of flying, or having powers. You want to feel special. Then you get a little older and before you know it your imagination subsides just a little, no longer is it as fun to play chasey with your friends and life is overwhelmed with tasks, like working, bringing up kids, keeping the car running, rent inspections, visiting the parents, dinner parties etc etc etc and you start to realise that there is nothing really special about you, more than likely you will never make a change to the world, your bones are getting more brittle by the day, your breath stinks after coffee and that the dreamworld you once imagined in fact does not exist and that within the next 50 years your grandchildren will be laying flowers on your coffin.

Only then will the truth be revealed.

as a kid i was the same. was obsessed with unexplained mysteries. borrowed everything from the library, watched a heap of horror movies, read a lot of books on ufos, ghosts..etc...was drawn to anything supernatural. then in my early 20s i discovered psychedelics. bingo. i believe it was the same fascination with the supernatural that led me to seeking out these experiences.

i am curious as to your own psychedelic experiences santiago. have you ever had a high dose mushroom experience or breakthough dose of DMT? you seem pretty keen on debunking the whole thing. saying that people who see ghosts or spirits are simply mad is a cop out. it does nothing to explain the phenomena. society has a habit of labelling people who see things as mad. it's a lot easier than seeking answers. it's easier to say 'that person was crazy' than it is to reevaluate your own beliefs and question what you think you know. fear of the unknown i guess.

i have a hard time denying the spirit world (or whatever the hell that place is) when i know it can be reliably experienced time and time again. just because one might use psychedelics to get there is beside the point. we use planes to fly to different countries but no one ever says 'we can't be sure you went there because you flew and didn't walk'...now before any one says 'but people fly planes together and agree they flew and it's part of the general consensus etc'... the exact same can be said for psychedelic experiences except far fewer people have had the experience.

Edited May 22, 2009 by holymountain

[drugo]

People who can do so great amount of psychedelics and be able to talk and function almost normally are some extraordinaire people, and not the norm...

I don't agree with this. You have simplified a multitude of experiences into the rubric of psychedelics. And also what do you mean by 'great amounts of psychedelics'? For time immemorial people have taken strong organic psychedelics viz. mushrooms, ayahuasca, san pedro, in large amounts, frequently throughout their life and still maintaining the ability 'to be able to talk and function'. For example, certain west amazonian cultures would administer ayahuasca monthly to different groups of their communty. 12 times a year for 50 years, that 600 times, is that 'too much'?

i think more so it's the approach to the plants than the amount or frequency which sends people 'insain'. If someone is abusing psychedelics, such as using them as a means of escapism or what not, i dare say they are also involved in many other activities of self disintegration, emotional, intellectual, by means of 'anything they can get their hands on', not just psychedelics. You need to consider the whole lifestyle of the 'disintegrated souls', so to speak.

It should be criminal to make such accusations as you did. You are perpetuating the fear which demonises these sacred experiences in the first place.

Furhtemore, most of the famous Western psychedelic researches practice quite frequently with psychedelics. I mean Benny Shannon, who this original thread's paper most probably drew most of his arguments from, admits to taking ayahuasac over 130 times. He also holds up a position as an associate professor at the University of Jerusalem, which i dare say he should need to know how to 'be able to talk and function'.

I think its more how 'drugs' come into a lot of peoples lives. In the West they are illicit and demonised. If the opposite was the case, like in countless indigenous cultures, I argue that more realistic accounts of these sacraments would be coming out of peoples mouths who don't know what they are talking about, such as yourself.

Sure, health and safety is important, but its not at the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is that these things are profound and deserve more humans attending to them in appropriate ways. And i argue that the amount of appropriate use for organic psychedelics is way beyond what you are probably suggesting.

Stop propagating fear, and stop fueling the ignorance which separates the psychedelic community form the world as large.

[Chiral]

"What I see in Nature is a magnificent structure that we can comprehend only very imperfectly, and that must fill a thinking person with a feeling of humility. This is a genuinely religious feeling that has nothing to do with mysticism."

This is brilliant.

i have a hard time denying the spirit world (or whatever the hell that place is) when i know it can be reliably experienced time and time again. just because one might use psychedelics to get there is beside the point. we use planes to fly to different countries but no one ever says 'we can't be sure you went there because you flew and didn't walk'.

Also brilliant

I like to think of it like this....someone says they are feeling unwell or have a headache...I can't see it or feel or know that it's really there or happening...I will however accept it....does that make me mad....I don't agree to say that if people see ghosts they are mad...that's fucking insane....my Mum and Dad once saw a ghost at the very same time for about 5 mins and my mother is tea totel all her life...I will also tell you that 3 of us as young teenagers riding our bikes around the streets of Forster on our way to another mates place looked and saw the spirit of an old aboriginal woman sitting at the base of street side tree wearing a floral dress...it scared the shit out of us all day...we all looked at her and she lifted her head and just looked at us...she was fully transparent...when we looked backed after riding a bit further she was gone....I have told this story to aboriginal friends of mine and they have said they know of her and she frequents the town quite often and refuses to leave...I'm telling you right now she was a ghost and 3 young boys who where all seeing the same thing not under the influence of anything see her ...are we mad...?

Those who wish to close their minds at the paranormal or anything they consider intangible are spiritually dead right now IMO.

I asked this question before in this thread and I'll ask it again...."what would this world be like if no psychedelic had ever been discovered and never would.....what would earth be like ....would we even have a religion of any kind ...ancient cultures used them to make contact with their gods ...imagine if they had never discovered mushrooms or DMT how different the world would be...personally I believe they are here for a reason and have just as much need to be here as bees or antelopes...they are an organic part of this magical place called earth.

H.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Hunab Ku

[mutant]

To begin, I have to say that all of Einstein's quotes are exelent in clarity and in the deep truth they express. Btw, have you heard of einstein / reich controversy ?

I think most people dont want to know the truth, they just wanna know the truth they believe in, they would want to be true. And even from those who really seek it, in the process, some get lost , some change their mind and stop 'seeking the truth', rather than trying to live life as better they can, a more individualist approach. That, philosophically speaking is totally irrelevant with what IS truth.

if you're interested in the giant conversation psychedelic and non-psychedelic researchers are having you need to appreciate the diversity of other arguably equally valid arguments.

what the heck is psychedelic and non-psychedelic researchers ? like, pro psychedelic and against??

If Kent's argument has convinced you, a lot of alternative and opposing ones written better will probably do the same.

Kent's approach is unique and rare. He is actually speaking about real psychedelic use, and that's where people are offended. Because you know , that, in parts, he is speaking about some of you....

People who can do so great amount of psychedelics and be able to talk and function almost normally are some extraordinaire people, and not the norm...

I don't agree with this. You have simplified a multitude of experiences into the rubric of psychedelics. And also what do you mean by 'great amounts of psychedelics'? For time immemorial people have taken strong organic psychedelics viz. mushrooms, ayahuasca, san pedro, in large amounts, frequently throughout their life and still maintaining the ability 'to be able to talk and function'. For example, certain west amazonian cultures would administer ayahuasca monthly to different groups of their communty. 12 times a year for 50 years, that 600 times, is that 'too much'?

i think more so it's the approach to the plants than the amount or frequency which sends people 'insain'. If someone is abusing psychedelics, such as using them as a means of escapism or what not, i dare say they are also involved in many other activities of self disintegration, emotional, intellectual, by means of 'anything they can get their hands on', not just psychedelics. You need to consider the whole lifestyle of the 'disintegrated souls', so to speak.

I am talking about thumbprint doses, or, a lot lower than that, but even than, enormous quantities, like 100 or 200 trips at once. even 10, 20 or 50 blotters seem too much for anything in my book... dunno

then on you seem to prefer insulting me

It should be criminal to make such accusations as you did. You are perpetuating the fear which demonises these sacred experiences in the first place.

I think its more how 'drugs' come into a lot of peoples lives. In the West they are illicit and demonised. If the opposite was the case, like in countless indigenous cultures, I argue that more realistic accounts of these sacraments would be coming out of peoples mouths who don't know what they are talking about, such as yourself.

Stop propagating fear, and stop fueling the ignorance which separates the psychedelic community form the world as large.

Fuck man, the only thing I am propagating is my plants. I try to be more constructive in everything else. You don't know shit about me. I am openly talking about psychoactives and psychedelics, as well as about 'appropriate use' and such - this in a country that even pot is a tabboo at large, and don't know shit about cacti , slavia d, and kratom.

I am exploring the powers and capabilities of as many such plants possible because they are simply interesting and wonderful in their effects [some of them, anyway] , botany - nature is a wonder anywayzz - and I don't need anyone telling me I don't know what I am talking about...

What I am talking about is psychedelics abuse, and psychedelic use dangers regardless the abuse. Fuck I wish you could see how I am talking about psychedelics and shit to people of the mainstream. And then try to convince people about all this with elves and 8th dimentions... lol...

I am not trying to separate the 'community' from the 'rest of the world'. I am trying to separate appropriate use from irresponsbile/stupid/abusive/pretension

I am not argueing against people who like to see it as a ceremony or something... I do see it as such too - in a way... I just know I can choose which nonsense I will speak out against and which not....

And when I am saying this guy kent speaks out reason, I really mean it. To his credit

PS: MODS/ADMINS , don't extinguish the fire, please, it's a polemic essay anyway! 'The case against the spirit world model of psychedelic action.'

It should get interesting

[paradox]

To begin, I have to say that all of Einstein's quotes are exelent in clarity and in the deep truth they express. Btw, have you heard of einstein / reich controversy ?

I think most people dont want to know the truth, they just wanna know the truth they believe in, they would want to be true. And even from those who really seek it, in the process, some get lost , some change their mind and stop 'seeking the truth', rather than trying to live life as better they can, a more individualist approach. That, philosophically speaking is totally irrelevant with what IS truth.

i don't know about the einstein/reich controversy, i'll look it up...

yeah i totally agree with your statement above hey.

personally i feel certain Buddhist & particularly zen practices & philosophies can be particularly helpful when i get to that experiential point where the depth of my experience goes beyond the threshold which reason can deal with.

i feel it's much more productive when you're experiencing such things, to let go of the need for intellectual understanding & give in to direct experience, free from interpretation & for me THAT is experiencing the 'truth'. for me intellectual understanding & experiential understanding are two different things which go hand in hand.

just watch it & feel it & experience it without 'thinking' about it...whatever 'it' is.

there seems to reach a point during very profound experiences where to employ the reason can be very counterproductive, as the complexity & alien-ness of that which you are experiencing is such that trying to reason it out just causes a kind of feedback loop which can spin out of control & end up messing your head right up. IMO thats the point that psychedelics can start to fuck you up & have a negative impact on your mental health.

but that said i have to clarify that i'm obviously a very big fan of intellect & reason. the point i'm trying to make in this thread is that they can't be relied upon solely for our total comprehension of our existence. the universe seems to be infinitely more complex than the scope of either.

that kind of reminds me of a good movie, has anyone seen Pi?

oh & mooksha, i'm pretty sure you sort of mis-interpreted what mutant was saying.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Paradox

[Alchemica]

Mutant :

May I ask how old are you, and Hunab? I remember Hunab is older, no?

21. Hunab's got a few more years on that.

It's like, when argueing with a theist whether god exists , and some times, after some intense talk and argueing, someone tells me "Ok, you're right, but I need to believe that, I believe it and it helps me" - then I immediately end the discussion, as it has reached a kind of 'conclusion', I understand the thing, and I respect the sincerity and admitance.

That's an admirable way to approach such things. Rationalising the irrational world we live in is hard, if not impossible... it really is up to the individual to find what they believe in.

The approach of a psychotic or anyone with tendencies for psychotic episodes partaking some psychedelic, especially a classic, has to be very careful, at least twice [or ten times!] as much as a normal psychopnaut would take care for set + setting + appraoch and goals and all that...

Wise points, thanks for bringing them up. I do think that there is a strong potential for psychedelics to be of benefit, even after unpleasant experiences. It's up to the informed user to make their own sensible decisions. Easy to make mistakes... but there is no better way to learn.

Edited May 24, 2009 by The Alchemist

[Chiral]

Mutant :

21. Hunab's got a few more years on that.

That's an admirable way to approach such things. Rationalising the irrational world we live in is hard, if not impossible... it really is up to the individual to find what they believe in.

Wise points, thanks for bringing them up. I do think that there is a strong potential for psychedelics to be of benefit, even after unpleasant experiences. It's up to the informed user to make their own sensible decisions. Easy to make mistakes... but there is no better way to learn.

well said... and I'm 45 this year...I've had my share of bad experiences and a lot of equally enlightening ones ...I am though starting to think that it is not necessary to divulge as often as one gets older...be warned it gets extremely traumatic and can be terrifying sometimes as you get older...the mechanisms of repair after hard core hyper spacing and tripping take their toll trust me on this one...be warned it gets to be extremely exhausting and emotional.

Just be careful and don't think that you are invincible through psychedelics because you are not..psychologically they can have some serious impact and I'm pro Psychedelics.

H.

[mutant]

Re: Paradox:

personally i feel certain Buddhist & particularly zen practices & philosophies can be particularly helpful when i get to that experiential point where the depth of my experience goes beyond the threshold which reason can deal with.

i feel it's much more productive when you're experiencing such things, to let go of the need for intellectual understanding & give in to direct experience, free from interpretation & for me THAT is experiencing the 'truth'. for me intellectual understanding & experiential understanding are two different things which go hand in hand.

just watch it & feel it & experience it without 'thinking' about it...whatever 'it' is.

You are certainly right on this, and what you say , I think, gets more and more real as the intensity [dose + more] are going upwards. BUT, I was talking about reason and logic and all that after the experience, logic & reason in our choices as up to when and how we are going to induldge for once more in a session etc. You see, a psychanalytical approach does have lots of logic along with other stuff. Lots of right lobe emotional stuff also in the picture, but they can be mapped by the left lobe [again reasoning centre] if you trust you reason, even during some moments during the psychedelic intoxication [lol, I know what some of you thinking 'there's no such thing as intoxication by psychedelics' - yes there is

So, yeah, reason as well as thinking a lot can be obstacles during a trip, but I am not so sure we are talking about mental issues here. Just a greater possibility for the tripper to alienate, for the trip to become colder and/or incomprehensible, to fall into a loop, all in all, a more neutral to negative experience, but I feel that this is not the same thing with mental issues, not necessarily anyway.

This reminds me of anither similar discussion I was having in another forum. People with inclination for logical thinking, reason etc, might have more difficulties during a trip, especially a strong one, but they will propably not have any particular problem the next day, even if the experience came to be a bad trip for some reason - this of course implies the person in question has no mental issues to begin. On the other hand, people less inclined in logic, might have less difficulties during the experience, and especially a strong one, but one might argue that they are more propable to become obsessed/unstabilised [in the 'wrong' vein] with or because of particular notions/visions of their trip, especially in regards with any mental issues, assimilation of gained insight the following days etc etc etc.

For the same reasons we seemed to agree in that discussion on the fact that people who use psychedelics in a native/religius/whatever way, like a traditional thing, are far less likely to experience a 'bad trip' and problems in general. Totally expectable, if you ask me.

Re: Hunab

Hey, your points in 2 or 3 plarts are not so much argueing that a particular notion is more likely to be true, rather than argueing that a notion has to be left open as to whether it is valid or not, and in generally not dismissing strange ideas and so. I am all for that, different and wierd theories, different unique individuals. But, philosophically speaking,, IMO anyway, and propably in any rationalist's view, your point isn't so strong as other ones that offer a biological-psychanalytical interpretation of the human being that stands perfectly alone.

Note that I don't discredit the experience of anyone, I regard any real experience as true, as something felt, as something that happened - albeit I regard it as something that, as anything perceived by a human being, it happened in the individual's head. Now interpretation, that's another thing.

edit/PS:

Nice comments Hunab , thanx yo ;)

Edited May 24, 2009 by mutant