Kids or No Kids

[B. Loco]

There's a difference between 'not wanting' and 'not planning'. We all grow up in a world that assumes we're all going tO procreate, that's it's simply the way people live their life.

Scenario 1: We meet a nice girl or guy, decide that they are the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and it will eventually come around to 'OK, it's TIME to have kids'. In many cases, it's a mutual agreement, because that's our ingrained conditioning as to how we, as members of society, are expected to act. Chances are you haven't been brought up with a conflicting viewpoint, so it's almost lke your destiny is preordained.

Scenario 2: We meet a nice girl or guy, decide that they are the person you want to spend the rest of your life with, and THEY say "Ok, it's TIME for me, if you love me you'll do it, or we'll have to break up". This then become a question of compromise, when one party strongly wants to, and the other is opposed. It could be either gender. I suppose on how strongly you are opposed to the idea of parenting - that will be the outcome.

Scenario 3: The nice girl forgets to take her birth control pills, or the nice guy 'accidentally' slips off the rubber. Entrapment parenting is not unheard of, just unpoken. It's a pretty low act on the perpetrator's part, and very unfair.

Scenario 4: Neither party really plan a pregnancy, but it often happens. You either take the pro-choice angle, or you choose to make the best of the relationship that's soon going to be in the status of "A Family". There's no less virtue in unplanned pregnancy, and no doubt theres lots of successful families out there who didnt plan it to be. Planned or not, its still following the preordained destiny, something that most people feel they need to be a part of eventually anyway.

Forgetting about this 'god' giving women hormonal urges to multiply, for a moment. We as a species have evolved as such that our genitalia is so sensitive to sexual pleasure that it makes us want to do it ! And not surprisingly, those very same pleasure organs are the ones that are responsible for procreation. Now, if we go for the 'god creator' concept - I think we are a flawed design, because the earth in which we inhabit can no longer sustain the level of reproduction, and will surely burn out in a few hundred years, or at least our species will. Unfortunately we will have destroyed so many other aspects of this earth before we fade away into extinction.

It's hard for me to agree with many of China's regulations, but the old 'One Child Policy" was actually a pretty good step. It doesnt forbid people to procreate, it just requests (Ok, maybe demands, I dont know what the punishment was) that people keep population growth under control. It's really no different to Terrence McKenna's hypothesis.

Someone brought up the "Selflessness" of child bearing (although I think it was in criticism of the term). By extension to that, I have a problem with people actually saying "Oh it's SELFISH to not want kids". What the fuck ? How can someone, choosing not to have kids, be accused of selfishness against an unborn, actually unconceived, child ? Do these people need a lesson in the mechanics of procreation, because sperm is just sperm until it's gets to the finish line in the magic mile. It's no more a future child than a glob of wax from my ear.

After that long-winded rant, if I may address the OP, mate you need to ask yourself, not others, whether you're going to be happy with the rest of your life, or at least the next 18 years, saying "Yes" to something that your heart does not agree with. Perhaps you shall be facing the saddest time of your life soon, when you decide for yourself that you simply cannot have the 100% vision of being a father, and need to say goodbye to the most special person in your life for the last decade. But if she's giving you an ultimatum, and let's be fair, her heart is heading in a whole new direction too with regards to kids, the time for self examination for you is right now.

I don't know you, and even people who do cant give you the answer you seek for yourself, so I am trying very hard to present an impartial overview of the concept of procreation. Making the willful decision to say goodbye someone you love is a big life step, but with fear of sounding callous, there are other women out there. But making the decision to be a parent is a life-long commitment to a new way of life, and once you're there, it's forever.

[ThunderIdeal]

great post loco, best of this thread IMO

although when i referred to womens' urges to have children i wasn't talking about the act of sex, i don't think it's something males can fully understand but it's an actual biological urge to have a child, although it's obviously not a universal urge.

[Torsten]

I'd love to see the stats that show that ....that is such a wild half cocked generalisation I can't believe of all people T that you would honestly believe that...

Come and live in the mullum/nimbin hippie lands for a while and you'll see. Most hippies are only hippies until they find a way of making lots of money [kinda like most communists are only communists until they get rich]. Sure hippies usually make their money in a more ethical and sustainable way, but they soon compromise on their ideals when they don't have to have those ideals anymore. True hippies are pretty rare.

I always though this area was full of yuppies because they all moved here, but it turns out a large proportion grew up here and used to be hippies until they moved up in the world.

Hippies in other parts of the country or world may be different, but i personally doubt it.

seems to me that people are forgetting that people are also dying

umm, no. Maybe you did? "Population growth" as a term already takes deaths into account.

Australia's population grew by 1.8% during the 12 months ended 30 September 2008. Natural increase and net overseas migration contributed 39% and 61% respectively to this total population growth.

Rahli, think you have probably mentioned the most problematic issue related to the whole tpic of population growth. There is little point in being responsible in one country while the majority of other countries aren't. The problem is that most of the population growth in non wstern countries is driven by religion, discrimination or family investment. Religions are mainly to blame for the desperate overpopulation in many poor countries. This combined with the desire to have at least one boy, and the idea that plenty of kids increases the chance of having one look after you as you get older is driving this insane population growth in many countries.

I have no answer for that and maybe we need to keep breeding to stop being overrun from the outside.

As long as you have rich countries that tie development aid to the restriction of contraception in poor countries we are adding to the problem. if development aid was tied to an adherance of a 2 child policy maybe some of these failed societies might get themselves out of trouble and would decrease the migration burden on us.

As for the nappy argument, it has been going on for many years and has nothing to do with old or new research, but rather with location. The issue of contention is the high water use for cloth nappies, which in high rainfall areas is of little or no concern. In arid areas adding an additional 350L per week is quite substantial. Given that some places are now looking at desal as their water source, the energy needed for desal will nudge the stakes higher again. There is little doubt that in places like adelaide and perth cloth nappies are not the solution they are often made out to be. And that's before you add the chlorine and phosphates into the mix.

[PD.]

overconsumption or overpopulation?

[Torsten]

overconsumption or overpopulation?

The problem is that as soon as people are not desperately poor they start to consume. It seems to be in human nature. So, if it is impossible to stop people consuming then the only other way is to stop them breeding.

[mu!]

go velvet! you are the model parent citizen of the ethno community stern, but fair. very well behaved kids

maybe if the rest of the world raised their kids like velvet there would be no need for this thread

[ThunderIdeal]

this thread is supposed to be to help watertrade make a decision. that's what it was initially about anyway.

over consumption and over population are both problems. i disagree that it's impossible to stop people consuming, that once they have money they automatically become consumer whores. it may be true to an extent but not everyone is gonna move to japan and surround themselves in useless shit at the first opportunity.

[FancyPants]

. A man can go his whole life a bachelor but if at age 60 decides he wants to be a daddy, he reasonably can with minimal help. After the age of 45 the chances of birth defects, genetic defects, health risks for baby and mum, rise so much. Never mind menopause. The biological clock ticking is very real.

Sorry to pick you up FP I just reading over your post and recent resaerch has also shown the risks of not having a healthy child are elevated for men older then 40

http://health.yahoo.com/experts/healthnews...d-birth-defects

Fascinating! I missed that report. Perhaps many males have also missed it and still believe - as I did - that even though it's more difficult, it's still possibly achievable?

Funnily enough last night I was shopping with a female friend and she brought up the subject. She didn't want kids anytime soon, but feels that when she's older and didn't have kids, she would be extremely regretful that she didn't do it while still possible.

Edit: How about the countries that contribute to overconsumption try to kerb that problem, and the countries that contribute to overpopulation kerb THAT problem. Wow, quick fix, will never happen, is never that easy. Like feeding the homeless to the hungry

Edited May 1, 2009 by FancyPants

[WoodDragon]

Like feeding the homeless to the hungry

A la Soylent Green!

[watertrade]

I have read this thread a few times now.

Thank you to those people who spoke about their own experiences with honesty and openness. It is these replies that I will take away with me. Hearing about other peoples experiences really does help put everything in perspective.

There are all some views/opinions I don't agree with - I could reply to these but I honestly don't see the point. They are only opinions, which don't make then right, regardless of how much energy is put into the argument.

Torsten, no need to feel sorry for me. I have a great relationship - I am very lucky.

[MindExpansion]

After meeting you WT i think you'd make a great dad.

Too friendly and genuine not to be.

Peace

[JDanger]

I agree with ME, and I've met you twice as many times ()

You seem like you have enough light and love in you to handle the job. I'm probably too young to really know what I'm on about, but they're my two cents, for what it's worth.

[baphomet]

The world is overpopulated.. here's proof: http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=c...=crowded+train#

But the worlds population will be greatly reduced very soon, whether it be by disease, war or whatever, there will no doubt be a great deal of suffering.. So...

Why not have kids, raise them to be little nietzscheansupermen and do your best to get them into a position of power where they can selectively cull certain parts of the worlds population to ensure that it remains habitable for quite some time, thereby ensuring our survival (& that of millions of other species)?

We do it in the case of overpopulation of certain animals so why not people?

Surely it's best to make it a selective process rather than letting 'nature' do it for us in a more general, across the board fashion?.. Which it will!!

Possibly they could adopt a system of eugenics where they eliminate those who lack empathy (esp. towards animals) and the will to live in a peaceful, sustainable fashion LONG TERM??

It's for the greater good

Edited May 4, 2009 by baphomet

[Chiral]

Would it be okay to kill Baph.... then that would allow Water trade to have a child then the population would remain stable...

[the germinator]

I know a few people who secretly regret having children, they only ever admit it when they're wide awake all night etc

Ya' hear people (mostly parents) skiting about how cool it is to have kids while they're hiding the mull bowl and picking up rubbish.

WT, I hope it works out well for you & your missus, it's very sad that your lady needs a donor... All the best.

Each to his own but kids, ya' can keep 'em!!!

[watertrade]

I should clarify the ‘donor’ statement I made. She never put it in this way - that was me.

What she said was more along the lines of, - if she really wants to have kids sometime in her life the only way is to find a father. Not just sperm in a bottle but a caring dad. of course you can have kids without the father been around but thats just what she wants.

[the germinator]

I'm glad you straightened that up

I got a sense of sadness when I misunderstood that remark... Phew - it's to early in the morning to carry a heavy heart.

[watertrade]

I'm glad you straightened that up

I got a sense of sadness when I misunderstood that remark... Phew - it's to early in the morning to carry a heavy heart.

its all

[SayN]

I never really gave it too much thought (story of my life), but I saw having children as something I would be more likely to regret not doing than doing. At times my little angels drive me up the wall but the experience as a whole has been hugely rewarding. Enormously.

If I have any regrets at all, it's the change in dynamics having children has had on my marriage as my wife and I have adapted to our new roles. Oh, and worrying about your kids when they get sick is a real killer.

[watertrade]

Hi Guys,

Some people already know and I have been keeping it pretty quiet but for those of you who remember this thread and aren't in the know... I have had a lot of time to think about my future and the how I feel about the world. the result?

My partner and i are expecting a baby boy on the 24th of Feb next year.

and yes, I'm shitting myself.

[watertrade]

This is also one of the reasons I haven't been so active on the forums recently busy doing baby stuff, or at least thinking about baby stuff.

Edited December 16, 2010 by watertrade

[obtuse]

wow, thats great to hear.

all the best watertrade, to yourself and partner, its certainly a life changer.

make sure you sleep lots now.

makes me tired just thinking about it. lol, he says nagging his children and trying to get them to bed without losing his temper.

have fun mate.

Cheers, Obtuse.

[obtuse]

This is also one of the reasons I haven't been so active on the forums recently busy doing baby stuff, or at least thinking about baby stuff.

 

ahhhh. that probably also explains why you didnt get to EGA this year.

I was hoping you might be there so we could catch up.

ahhh well, next time.

[watertrade]

Thanks Obtuse, apart from the fear there are lots of other emotions... most of them good ;)

Work kept me away from EGA this year - the baby will probably keep me away next year.

[incognito]

well done WT u stallion!!

I think u will be a great dad