Rivea/Turbina corymbosa: The real deal.

[kadakuda]

there seems to be a lot of opinions and whatnot about this specie, and to be blunt, i am confused as hell...for many years.

So i am hoping to have a good discussion about this plant and its use (hope that s OK).

first some information and discussions from around the www. (hope other forum links are ok....???)

From Dr. dukes sites resources: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/duke/farmacy2.pl

Turbina/Rivea corymbosa chemicals (seems lacking but gives some idea of seed)

In this page it seems Isoergine is the active in the seeds.

Chemicals

1,7-DIMETHYLPHENANTHRENE Seed:

No activity reported.

ALKALOIDS Seed 560 ppm;

No activity reported.

CHANOCLAVINE Seed 40 ppm;

No activity reported.

ELYMOICLAVINE Seed 15 ppm;

No activity reported.

ERGINE Seed 100 ppm;

No activity reported.

ERGOMETRINE Seed 20 ppm;

Abortifacient; Antiimplantation; Hemostat; Lactafuge; Oxytocic; Prolactin-Inhibitor; Uterotonic

ERGOMETRININE Seed 20 ppm;

No activity reported.

ISOERGINE Seed 190 ppm;

Hallucinogen 2 mg/man/day/orl

LYSERGOL Seed:

No activity reported.

PENNICLAVINE Seed:

No activity reported.

PHENANTHRENE Seed:

No activity reported.

TRYPTOPHAN Seed:

Analgesic 750 mg/4x/day/orl/man; Antianxiety 500-1,000 mg/meal; Antidementia 3 g/day; Antidepressant 1-3 g/3x/day/orl/man; Antidyskinetic 2-8 g/orl/wmn/day; Antihypertensive; Antiinsomniac 1-3 g/day; Antimanic 12 g/man/day/orl; Antimenopausal 6 g/day; Antimigraine 500 mg/man/4x/day; Antioxidant 125 ug/ml; Antiparkinsonian 2 g 3 x/day; Antiphenylketonuric; Antiprostaglandin 250 pg/ml; Antipsychotic 12 g/man/day; Antirheumatic; Antiscoliotic; Carcinogenic; Essential; Hypnotic; Hypoglycemic; Hypotensive 3 g/day; Insulinase-Inhibitor; Insulinotonic; Monoamine-Precursor; Prolactinogenic; Sedative 3-10 g/man/day; Serotoninergic 6-12 g/day/orl/man; Tumor-Promoter

TUBICORYNE Plant:

No activity reported.

DOSE

This is one area i find EXTREMELY confusing.

I have grown out my rivea and produced my own seeds. MANY places all over the net claims 10-20 seed type dosage with "fresh" seed. I tried doses starting at 5 and working up by 5-10 and i got up to 55 with nothing (day old seeds, sometimes not even dry)....so i really dont get this.

in the past i found around 150 seeds from various websites (no doubt a little old) to be about right, or more.

then there is this discussion, which opens ones eyes to a whole new possibility:

http://www.thenook.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=62446

I have been doing a lot of research on morning glories and figured I'd post what I have learned.

A study of rivea seeds ( and an ipomoea relative) showed that when seeds and or plants are treated with a fungicide (surface sterilized for the seeds) that the plants are rendered alkaloid negative.

A study could not find genes for ergoline alkaloid pathways in ipomoea species, but found such genes in an epibiotic fungus that grows on ipomoea and can be found on the seeds. (several endophytes were found as well but not indicated as the source of the ergoline alkaloids.)

I have a hunch that a lot of the inconsistancies surrounding ipomoea enthogens has to do with the epibiote.

Lysergol is worth investigating... likewise I believe the lysergic acid hydroxyethlamide is very interesting.

I read of highly active A/B extractions that started with ethanol and ended up with a freebase residue that was black light reactive and a potent visual psychedelic when ingested on the order of milligrams.

I read of numerous ipomoea species containing ergoline alkaloids, like I. nil, however they are on average about 10-20X weaker than I. violacea.

I wonder now about using the epibiota of one ipomoea species to innoculate others (maybe surface sterilize some seeds of nil and then soak them for germination with some tricolor) Also it stands to reason that cultivation practices that are to maximize alkaloid content are those that are epibiote friendly.

Another source claiming 13 seeds. they say the actives are "ergoline alkaloids, lysergic acid amide, and lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide"

www.fs.fed.us/global/iitf/pdf/shrubs/Turbina%20corymbosa.pdf

Narcotic Properties.—The seeds of Christmas vine were valued as a sacred hallucinogen by Chinantec, Mazatec, Mixtec, Zapotec, and other groups in Southern Mexico in Pre-Columbian times and are still cultivated and used today as aids in divination and witchcraft. It was administered by grinding about 13 seeds, adding water, filtering, and drinking the filtrate in a quiet, secluded place. Hallucinations follow that last about 3 hours, sometimes with aftereffects. The active ingredients are the ergoline alkaloids, lysergic acid amide, and lysergic acid hydroxyethylamide that are closely related to LSD (Schultes and Hoffmann 1992).

Here it states "western subject"...not sure what to think about this, but i dont think too much at this point as they are vendors.

http://www.azarius.net/smartshop/psychedel...eds/ololiuhqui/

The traditional and most suitable method of preparation is to soak the finely ground or chewed seeds in half a cup of water for several hours, then consuming both the water and seeds.

The traditional dose consists of 14 to 22 seeds (R. Gordon Wasson, 'Ololiuhqui and the other hallucinogens of Mexico' in 'Homenaje a Roberto J. Weitlaner'. 1971). There have been experiments where these amounts elicited no effects among Western subjects. Eventually they ingested up to 60 - 100 seeds. Higher dosages led to nothing but vomiting and several other undesirable side-effects.

http://www.clusterbusters.com/lsa.htm

Ergoline Alkaloidal Constituents of Hawaiian Baby Wood Rose are:

% of Total alkaloid % dry seed weight

Ergine 22.68 0.136

Isoergine 31.36 0.188

Ergometrine 8.20 0.049

Lys. alpha-OH-ethylamide 5.79 0.035

IsoLys. || 3.98 0.024

This seems to go against what many places claim. This states (a quote of Schultes?) that rivea is half as strong in alkaloids as I. violacea, and that rivea is needed in higher mass than MG.....interesting.

http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/ipomoea.res

The main psychotomimetic constituent of the seeds of both species

[ipomoea tricolor & Rivea corymbosa] are ergine (d-delta-lysergic acid

amide) and isoergine (d-delta-isolysergic acid amide) which occur together

with minor alkaloids: chanoclavine, elymoclavine, and lysergol.

Ergometrine appears to be present in the seeds of I. violacea, but

absent in R. corymbosa. The total alkaloid content of R. corymbosa seed

is 0.012% ; of I. violacea, 0.06% - and, indeed Indians use smaller quantities

of the latter than of the former.

some other bits n pieces of info on the web.

discuccion elsewhere on LSA: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.p...4033066#4033066

Alkaloids and lipids of Ipomoea, Rivea and Convolvulus and their application to chemotaxonomy: http://www.springerlink.com/content/8416165213823222/ (abstract)

The Ergot Alkaloids: http://www.people.vcu.edu/~asneden/The%20E...20Alkaloids.pdf

Effect of alkaloids of ololiuqui in man (abstract): http://www.springerlink.com/content/l314g623m039h825/

Five mg of either a crude extract of seeds of ololiuqui or a mixture of synthetic alkaloids caused drowsiness in former morphine addicts but few other subjective effects. Perceptual distortion was reported only rerely, and hallucinations did not occur. In contrast, LSD-25 caused nervousness, perceptual distortion, euphoria and hallucinations. The alkaloids of ololiuqui did not cause fever or marked mydriasis. Ololiuqui and the alkaloids of ololiuqui should be regarded principally as sedatives rather than as psychotomimetics.

A Uterine Stimulant effect of Extracts of Morning glory Seeds: http://www.maps.org/psychedelicreview/v1n3/013317der.pdf

getting tired, this is probably enough to start a discussion.

Some questions.

Why do some claim such low doses of Rivea and sch high doses of MG varieties, yet others claim the reverse?

Why in my own plants does it still take so many seeds to achieve effects, and even more seeds to achieve effects with MG; wen some sources (above) state rivea is weaker (i wonder about that claim!)?

what is in Rivea seeds that causes such effects, or is there any one thing that does? is there synergy?

What about that discussion on the nook about perhaps other things affecting the rivea seeds?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Excellent post!

Why do some claim such low doses of Rivea and sch high doses of MG varieties, yet others claim the reverse?

I'm going to have to say genetics. I think it's all in the genetics, perhaps the seeds you sowed that gave you your plant were not of most genetically potent strain of Rivea.

[kadakuda]

well not to spill my beans, but i have done this plant more than any other and from quite a few sources, all the same (roughly). reading others' experiences it seems tehy are all in teh high 100+ range as well, which really makes me wonder. its certianly not due to fresh or old. read that nook link, i am wondering if that could be onto something.

actually the only place i have seen saying rivea is weaker is that link (http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/ipomoea.res) that is apparently a quote of Schultes claiming violacea has double the alkaloids (although doesn't say much as to which and how many of each). anyone have that full source?

[Stonehenge]

A lot of those authors who said a small dose works just did not know what they were talking about. Having a phd or other degree does not mean they are correct or even have much more than a clue. There is a ton of misinformation out there, even from famous people. Personal experience is much better. I grow this plant myself but have not tried seeds yet.

[Chiral]

MMM great bit of research there..makes me wonder about the validity of this post then..

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/inde...792&hl=HBWR

Is it that some people are really sensitive to LSA... and some have a huge natural tolerance to it. I guess the only way to see whats happening is to verify the alkaloid content..ie measure it..not ingest it, to see if there is variable amounts of alkaloids per seed or per batch of seed from each flower. Also would be handy to know if the plant that the seed came from was from potent stock or not like Teo said. I think there is a fair bit of difference in peoples sensitivity to LSA which is maybe clouding the real picture of whats going on here. This also brings me to one of my other posts about growing conditions and stressing of plants to produce more alkaloids..

H.

Edited November 15, 2008 by Hunab Ku

[t st tantra]

rivea seem to loose potency quicker than the others,but i have found them to be the best source of lsas.

if extracting into tap water, chlorine seems to destroy lsas.

dose varies widely with lsas,some get virtually zilch apparently.

t s t .

[herbologist]

There is talk in this thread of an endophyte being important to LSA production

HERE

There was another where it was discussed in more detail but I couldn't find it

[Vertmorpheus]

I think there's a few things at play here...

Genetics... IME the most prolific seeders of just about anything tend NOT to be the nicest of the bunch... not entirely shithouse by default but yeah, you get what I mean. Most ganj beans in common circulation are from hermie prone scum buds, for example.

Secondly... conditions... a LOT of this stuff is being grown in some WHACKY places ie... france, under lights, or victoria etc... not quite the dominican republic or all that similar. many plants see mto be beaten senseless in "large" (ie, 300 mil ) pots for a year or two first, which sets em up for stresses later on when they should be getting set to make bulk brix for those fungal whatnots to live off.

Expectation. Some site (spiritplants? one of those kinda limp ones anyway) had a lil poll and the options were " on rivea, did you get a> nothing b> almost nothing c> comparable to LSD"... I mean, really... it's NOT lsd, it's not MEANT to be "comparable to LSD" and I reckon if you tried to get to the same places, you'd just end up kind of uncomfortable. People eat a bunch of seeds expecting "visuals" (whatever they are ) and miss out on em, so they say rivea is shite, any observer in the room can see them being twice as animated, staring into reflections, being tiwce as involved in the plot of the shitty movie, half an hour spent outside staring at the stars... all the while pilot x is saying "these dont do anything" ;)

Good beans (fresh, brown, stored well but not necess frig'd) give me a tingle at 20 or 30, flick the switch at 40 or 60 and about a hundred is lovely. Jamming all seeds into your cheek then chewing em one by one to pulp with the odd sip of milk or water seems to be the best balance (assuming you have teeth in ok shape, maybe not one for the meth set hey). never bothered with this "no tap water, mix with llama spit, leave in sacred footy boot under light of a full moon" stuff personally... most reports from ppls using those routes seem to lack a lil... anything haha.

It is a substance with a seemingly low ceiling ie... its meant for laid back loved up introspection and communication with intimates, art, writing, you probably WONT find your walls glowing blue or the alien love bugs playing with your balls... but you might just reach a few quietly startling conclusions about yourself, your art, your science, your life and your loves.

Loading up on acidic drinks (ala most net reports) seems to not help overly much, ganja detracts (usually), I like to eat something plain n hour or two beforehand otherwise the seeds cause hellish munchies (methinks just frees up enough dopa n sera for me to anticipate the joy of eating, haha) and eating after takeoff tends to bring u back down to earth.

Proper attention has to be paid... it is one of the least intrusive or overbearing plants I know, if you find yourself distracted by the day to day then youll more or less stay there...very gentle agent, orientated to love between and within people.

Also has to be brought into play that a lot of ppl eating these things are doing so after 10 or 20 (or more haha) years of popping this and chewing that, a lot of ppl are eating em thinking they're "just like acid but herbal, man" when if anything it's more like having half an old school "pure" e, a big cup of cocoa and quite a bit of high potency pure sativa... none of that "digital neurosis" familiar in the land of Alice, the nearest was half an hour spent reinventing semaphore

In the same way that caapi and rue are said to be the female/lunar and male/solar flips of the same coin, I think of Sid as being the solar active male and rivea being the passive lunar female side of things... not the best metaphor but you get what I'm ranting about

Very important too, to remember that the average humble villager in mexico probably has a few less distractions, high falutin aspirations and lets face it less options for stimulus than the typical westerner would... in addition to being about half the body weight, not backed up with three feet of their own shit and spit unused to breaking down raw plant materials. They also probably don't have ultrapotent synthetic party products for comparision either!

I also suspect different climates and feeding regimes changes the balance or ratios of compounds in the seeds... certainly as they age from whole but green to dry n brown the taste changes quite dramatically, as does potency... shade-aged for a week nearly but not quite brown beans seemed to be the fastest ticket but also had the most apparent peripheral effects ie tinglies in hands, etc, but nothing like that found on hawaiians, and less than say sitting on your bum drinking beer and eating salt all night haha.

Some ppl , esp those basically less dreamy to start with, don't notice the effects as much, and it also has a ganj like "sensitisation" aspect ie it does what it does, but you don't know what to look for yet...common enough trait that one. Anyone with a general shortage of seratonin esp will tend to get processing effects but not...qualitative effects... ie, things are a bit odd but it doesn't strike em as that remarkable or fun... otherwise, even quite amply supplied ppl don't tend to get much out of em if dosing more than say every couple weeks... any attempts to "double dip" or "extend" just up insomnia rather than effects. Try eating em too much and you can get quite bummed out for a bit, in that typical touchy tripper kind of way.

my verdict... magic stuff, victim of (as per bloody usual) internet wankery and deceptive advertising, as well as plain unreasonable expectations from users (who lets face it are often best summed up as "too high, but never high enough"). An inoffensive, gentle useful teacher specially designed for life n love lessons, very lil wear n tear on the body or the mind and with an extremely limited potential for any kind of abuse. Also (probably more applicable to society) it is a beautiful plant, easily grown for shade etc but can produce BULLSHIT volumes of seed and has already been reported going weedy up north, so take care. You wont be able to get "Every seed, ill be careful" with anyhting but the most sickly or limited of vines. Also, not your key into being the local acid kingpin... just not gonna happen But a few mates might love you a lil bit more, and interestingly enough good things have been reported fairly consistently from ppl who are completely ignorant and unbiased ie open trusting guineas with no pre concieved notions of what to expect... most fall neatly within the bounds of "expected outcomes".

I have some poetry that probably expressed the lessons more effectively than this first thing on a Sunday nonsense, might put it up later, some nice riveart too.

chew em if you got em,

VM

[Vertmorpheus]

Ah, and lots of water... proper hydration seems to help out with the gentle non loading activity as well as helps ward off the slight scatters towards touchdown at the other end.

Course, you might just look at one seed and your heart will explode, you'll lose your mind, turn into a commie and start making your own tempeh, you have been warned.

Also illegal for anyhting other than lookin pretty in most parts, so beware. Sold at a lot of websites, and legal, are not the same thing.

Ah, sulfur (good grade or no) can cause breathing difficulties and allergies in some, esp asthmatics... worth remembering.

VM

[mutant]

Nice research Kada! I didn't understand though, did you archieve effects? and if yes with how many seeds?

I also had in mind that thing with the fungi IN the seeds co-producing the LSAs, actually that was the reason I didn't apply fungicide to my argyreia last winter when it got some fungal problem.... This goes to all LSAs-producing vines...

Also there are notions that Turbinas has a preferable alkaloid profile, and t s t seems to confirm it... SO it's not only the dose [# of seeds] here, but also the nature and flavour... Turbinas are reputed to cause a preferable experience... There are also notions that Ipomoeas are more visual compared to argyreias....

I would guess each has its merits. F.e. argyreia seeds offer consistency in dosage.... Turbinas might introduce some othre interesting / wanted element

T st, in what way would you say Turbina experiences are different?

[Torsten]

Ah, sulfur (good grade or no) can cause breathing difficulties and allergies in some, esp asthmatics... worth remembering.

Are you not confusing this with sulphites? I've never heard of sulfur causing asthma, but sulphites are well know to do so. Mind you, old sulfur probably has some sulfur dioxide on it which may have the same effect, but as the oxides are highly water soluble these could easily be washed off [even if the sulfur itself won't wash off].

As for the main topic, there are so many thigns that cause variations in potency that it is futile to try and compare species from different genetics [both the plant and the fungus] and different climates. I've seen fresh HBWR with virtually no effect while other strains/locations are so potent that 2 seeds become challenging.

One of the things I observed was that the cleaning process of HBWR can impact on the speed of potency decline. Processes that injure the hard coat with fine cracks or abrasions will cause a much faster decline [3 months vs 2 years]. if you extrapolate that to the much thinner and more porous seedcoat of Rivea then the mere design of the seedcoat may dramatically impact on potency decline after harvest and possibly even before!

[mutant]

Torsten have you not seen seeds initial potency related to the seeds a mature plant [coming from the very same seeds] will produce? I mean, can potent viable seeds produce a plant which makes impotent seed?? Ever had this?

[Torsten]

Torsten have you not seen seeds initial potency related to the seeds a mature plant [coming from the very same seeds] will produce? I mean, can potent viable seeds produce a plant which makes impotent seed?? Ever had this?

yes, definitely. I think good genetics only provides the maximum potential, but that doesn't mean this potential is reached all the time. There are plenty of factors that will limit the development of the full potential.

Climatic conditions in the ripening phase would be by far the most important limiting factor.

[Undergrounder]

Is there a link between Ergine/Ergometrine etc. and what the nook post says about an anti-fungal wash rendering the plants/seeds "alkaloid negative"?

As in ... you know, LSA/ErgoX being produced by a fungus, and said fungus being killed by said anti-fungal wash?

Just a thought.

[Torsten]

Consider this:

Stipa robust seeds become inactive a few weeks after being frozen for a week.

Argyreia nervosa seeds become inactive several weeks after being frozen for a month.

we already know the LSA in Stipa is from a fungus and not from the Stipa, we also know that LSA itself can be frozen without damage. So it seems that the freezing affects the fungus.

[Vertmorpheus]

"Are you not confusing this with sulphites? I've never heard of sulfur causing asthma, but sulphites are well know to do so"

No. "sulfur" doesn't cause asthma,if we want to split wabbits, dioxides responsible for much of its preservative effect can trigger an acute attack of symptoms though. Not sure if we even know what "causes" asthma, to be honest. lots of stuff on various asthma/allergy sites though re: sulfur additives. fur v fites sounds a bit chicken n egg, once you feel as if you're drowning on dry land. Now throw tripping on top of drowning no fun. I don't think the bigarse tubs of "food grade sulfur" are quite as rigourously tested as imagined, as plenty of fruits labelled as only using "food grade sulfur" have been found to knock asthmatic kids around quite a bit.

http://www.fedupwithfoodadditives.info/fac...tdriedfruit.htm the usual story, make of it what you will.

"old sulfur probably has some sulfur dioxide on it which may have the same effect, but as the oxides are highly water soluble these could easily be washed off"

maybe...I can tell you that as a kid if anything like dried apricots weren't washed to bullshit and back, twice, I'd pack up nearly dead and end up huffing steroids in a hospital bed for the rest of the night. I wasn't one of those bubblewrapped dettol soaked kind of kids either, just a thing that we had to keep an eye out for.

If vendors are bulk treating bigarse bags of beans and hten letting em sit n stew for a couple years while they sell em off, might just be the dioxide in some rare cases. Even if it's less than one in a thousand, there's a whole lot of ppl buying and eating these things, singly and as components in dodgy sounding party pills OS.

Nevermind what kind of crap these seeds are being doused with to get em across international borders n quarantine, etc, or what they're fed with during original growth. More in a bag of seeds, than just seeds, was the real point. Long term asthmatics can often end up with a pretty hardcore histamine response to the things that DO bother them, the compensation mechanism can often end up more of a pain in the bum than the "attack" ever would have been, properly managed... heart racing woozy shock like symptoms arent entirely uncommon and have a lil in common with some of the more nasty physical effects of hawaiian I have read. Like your head is speeding but your body is drunk, or something...fucked.

Figured it worth a mention, at the very least, especially if as ya said T, simply washing well can help out. One less cause of possible strife.

For me, mechanical irritants like smoke, cigs, dust, etc, no worries,but odd lil things can and will set off a lot of constriction even though I havent had any real dramas with asthma for about 8 years now. I was nearly killed by a cheerio once, of all things, but love my chorizos. Macadamias, but no other nuts. Cheap red doesn't bother me much at all, go figure, but cheap white wine gets me breathing like a guppy in glue. Probably a very complicated answer behind all that.

re: preharvest n harvest conditions... In efforts to provide the best lil fungal hangout for mine that I could, I probably was responsible for introducing a lil seed rot into some pods...very few, about 1 in 100, overall pretty happy with an approach based on constant but evenly diminishing moisture, silty but well draining vine country river flat soil, extra doses of p, k, mg, etc leading into budset and then occasional spoilings with molasses (not sure if it really does increase sugars present but just about all glossy dark leafed plants seem to love the stuff, if only for TE's). In hindsight, I'd probably provide increasing shade or breaking of light as seeds hardened off to prevent any possibly... dunno... cooking? Most are well n truly juicy inside despite being well hardened outside, when first taken, drying out a lot more in the next couple weeks. Seeds left in pods fared better than husked seeds left in similarly exposed positions, over time, makes sense. I don't know if it's really a need for the fridge as much as just a constant and pleasant temp.

Dehusking seems best done on a pod by pod Rosary like approach (blessed is the fruit of thy womb) thumb n forefinger sqeezing dry capsules at the base (stalky end, technical term there) with a slight clitoral twist, beans neatly pop out without being ground against each other or dropped into a dish for winnowing a million times, etc. aim for something soft if you go for some funky airborne assault method... one well grown plant will drop so much in the lap that it's tempting to get rough I guess.

Something best seen as a seasonal observance, I suspect. I guess you could plead cold treatment of seeds to explain why you have 300g of "ICBIK-Sid" taking up space in your frozen pea department. But even when they're not bearing, they're growing like mad and looking gorgeous,bees galore and smell divine, and the non bitter tips are used as a green veg in some cultures, they're pretty spinachy. Chooks look pretty wary around them though, maybe they know something we don't.

Any word on the roots? Wondering what happens to all that stray mystery once the beans are hardened off and the plant starts to sulk for a couple weeks before regrouping and throwing new shoots...

VM

edity... not to malign dodgy OS party pills, never had one, I'z sure dey be well fit f'dah lads n that.

Edited November 16, 2008 by Vertmorpheus

[kadakuda]

Hunab Ku: i agree. but for me anyway, i dont feel this. 3 hbwr seeds took me far, as does 300 mg seeds, which seems average....and people claiming 10 seed trips and my 150 to get similar results just doesn't seem right.

salem13: there is discussion at the nook, its in the top post if you want to search that link. i also quoted the original post there.

Vertmorpheus: i think for some plants this could be the case, but i dont think so with these. these are SUPER aggressive growers that are perennial and built for anything. bouncing back from the pot after 2 years should be pretty quick. nonetheless mine are grown outdoors in ground for 3 years now (from seed) and my climate is similar to that of mexico (tropical) and hawaii, if not a tad warmer.

just for information sake i am pretty country, never done "party" drugs, avoid city like the plague and tend to do these seeds while camping alone (i dont extract, all natural).

very good post, i have more to say but my fingers have no energy to express it right now lol!

mutant:

to summarize i found fresh seeds to be no stronger than old ones.

my seeds are grown in ground, outside completely organic (no chems).

I did get effects with older seeds 120-150 were good. i did up to 55 fresh seeds with no effects.

Consider this:

Stipa robust seeds become inactive a few weeks after being frozen for a week.

Argyreia nervosa seeds become inactive several weeks after being frozen for a month.

we already know the LSA in Stipa is from a fungus and not from the Stipa, we also know that LSA itself can be frozen without damage. So it seems that the freezing affects the fungus.

that IS interesting! How can one check their seeds to see if they have this fungus?

Any experiences/thoughts/comments on Rivea Torsten?

[Torsten]

sulfur is never used in its elemental form on fruit. It wouldn't work that way. The fruit is usually put in some enclosed space and the sulfur is burned beneath it with the fumes of sulfur dioxide travelling and settling to the surface of the fruit. These days it is more common to use solutions of sulfur dioxide salts [eg metabisulfite]

Sulphur dioxide is not a good seed treatment though. Elemental sulfur is used for this. I don't actually know why.

[herbologist]

I read that, I was just pointing out that they weren't the only ones.

Edited November 17, 2008 by salem13

[mauve]

kadakuda: that's weird, i've had very meaningful experiences and triped hard at 30-60 seeds (old seeds). But it is wasn't very visual, visions always came at the last part of the experiences. The best part wasn't in the visions anyway, Rivea c. is a very "loving" entheogen, i've found that i was best taken in the darkness (music is as incredible as with the other most famous lyseric compound).

[Undergrounder]

That's really interesting about the freezing and the fungus Torsten... thinking some more, would it be conceivable to culture the fungus from the seed itself? Or am i barking up the wrong tree.. no idea about the legalities of course either.

[kadakuda]

so if it it say a fungus, or something else, would this not easily be proven with extractions? ie, uncrushed seeds when extracted, are still active, then maybe there is something to it? i also wonder, that pretending that it is a fungus, why such the large dose variability between species.....? perhaps a fungus is not the cause of "high", is there a chance it opens up your body to something else in the seed?

mauve. well, i have never tripped hard off them either, but 55 fresh seeds gave me literally nothing but the beginnings of that warm gut feeling, nothing more. i know the sensation you speak of, but i did not get even that...not until around 90 (usually) will i start feeling they are doing anything at all.

Edited November 17, 2008 by kadakuda

[Vertmorpheus]

"i think for some plants this could be the case, but i dont think so with these."... sorry, lost me there. what isn't the case? I am moderately aware that they grow fairly fast though.

"some enclosed space and the sulfur is burned beneath it " - some sulfurish gribblies that end up in foods (and sulphites, while we're at it) HOWEVER the specific mechanics happen, how its applied, what phase the moon is in, etc, end up fucking with the lungs of some ppl... that was my point. SDO, regardless of source or social status, can trigger attacks in susceptible ppl even at very very low levels. More processors moving to use of metbi's isn't too great either... lets just skip all that business at the start and go STRAIGHT to triggering ppl...makes sense, not. Either way, so2 ends up stuck all over the contents of the bag, which then ends up inside ppl, which can fuck with them. Simple stuff. How it ends up there sounds a lil like..." i dont take stimulant party drugs, just eat half a g of mace once in a while" Similar thing happens in greenhouses using sulfur burners (not that its real common anymore), some staff have a nasty habit of getting viciously crook the next day even with proper airing out etc.

Course in all practicality, there are (obviously?) differences between treating a dried peach and a few rivea seeds, and noone would be eating a hundred g of rivea in an arvo (go on, accept the Chewy Challenge!) or feeding em to their kids (well, hopefully not, but bogans n all), I just thought it worth including for safeties sake and "completeness". Granted, some places aren't treating at all, but that doesn't stop any given amateur from harvesting the mother lode, wanting to play it safe and just dumping the nearest big "S" to hand in there, or anyone from eating the results.

Most "nasty trip reports" about these plants are well n truly inline with accepted ideas of how ergot alks can affect the body anyway, so no need to hunt up an extra bogeyman usually.

That aside, I was reading something last night about culturing Botrytis in wine grapes, differences between nasty n noble rots, etc... could be worth looking into for the diehard fungal farmer! Any ideas as to the standard prohibition on chlorinated tap water for processing applies to watering too? Nothing but dam n tank water here, seemed to work pretty well... foliar feeds with dilute bleach in the burbs might not be its favourite snack, perhaps.

Also, anyone have any idea about intergeneric hybridisation, possibility thereof? I have a heap of Ipomoea pleibia hanging around, very similar in a way but obviously a lot more compact, faster and with smaller flowers... only problem is flowering at just about opposite ends of the season, was thinking pollen saving... any idea on how well Ipomoea pollen keeps? And would it even be possible?

Also keen to track down some of the pink rivea, scant refs to it and seems more likely as u get more equatorial... if nothing else crossing the pink wit hthe white has to take care of the recent line breeding issues (ie, ten thousand seeds is nice, but only so good for anyone else if its 10000 seeds growing into dud plants). I read there is some in townsville, anyone seen it?Meant to be some round JCU, maybe a local could take a peek for us? :D

Ah, also have to report that rivea has to be one of the least pest prone plants I've seen, not even the spotted bugs would eat the stuff... amazing.

VM

[kadakuda]

caterpillars will eat it, a lot. in fact my plants cover roughly 10 square meters before i prune....caterpillars last year striped the WHOLE thing of leaves! the odd snail bites happen as well, but nothing major.

i am interested in this pink flowered variety, got any more info?

thanks for all the info....so, have you gotten desired "something" with anything less than 100 seeds?

EDIT. i just went out to prune the damn things (growing into the house) and jsut so happens they are starting to flower. much more than before. so it seems they are a spring/fall flowerer here.....i am wondering if its a light thing or a temp thing. we had a cold spell for a week ending this weekend, and now they are flowering. it was similar in spring when they flowered.

Edited November 18, 2008 by kadakuda

[t st tantra]

i think the pink rivea thing is crap......mainly genereated online by the posting of a misidentified plant at an oz uni.......its in a thread somewhere here....wish they would fix it!

t s t .