Getting sum1 off of anti-depressants???

[naja naja]

She's been hooked for 3 years and knows she's addicted, but goes into withdrawals if she doesn't have one for just one day. I have sceletum here, but did not want to give it to her in combination to her prescription meds. Anybody else here have any suggestions on how to get sum1 off anti-D's and all happy with her life, like (I assume) the majority of us are. (Is it abnormal to feel this happy all the time?)

Can her anti-D's have any potential side effects if used with any of the more common ethnobotanicals?

Peace

Naja

[Vertmorpheus]

from memory most docs work on a rough timeline of about 5 years from first contact to even thinking about getting people chem free... the most spectacular fuckups occur when someone basically doses for a year or two, gets all "better" by their own standards and stops taking the pills... as long as her doc is on the ball and understands that she has to work on her natural sources of feeling a bit better in conjunction with realistic expectations AND then very gradullay tapering off the meds, all kinds of nasty shit can happen.

Like the bloke in Toowoomba that chopped his nan to death with an axe when he stopped taking HIS, and the courts essentially let it slide as he had no priors, was nothing but remorseful, didnt remember doing it, and performed within the now familiar framework of people suddenly ceasing some kinds of AD's.

Some AD's made some drugs stronger, sometimes dangerously so, binding issues etc.. some make them much weaker, some see mto have almost zero interaction.

Its all made harder to work out in any concrete sense because what is an "outburst" in one culture or family is an "expression" in others, some people are harder ont hemselves than others, bla bla, and it has to be taken into account that almost all people that take AD's at some stage stuff em up, usually unintentionally, by failing to remain properly hydrated and fed, maintain good sleep hygiene, they feel so good they have a couple drinks with friends and wash alllll that accumulated chem out of their heads... I can really feel for anyone that lives with someone long term on AD's, and anyone taking em, with that whole "I just want my head back" train of thought, or the "this is ok, but im not just living with THEM, its them and the pills..." one too... but I don't think theres any quick n easy way to get someone off prescribed ad's and onto something of fairly irregular potency and activity, etc... not saying kanna etc doesnt seem to really help some people, like st johns wort etc too... but theres no simple maths so you can say well no more 30mg a day of chem x, now you need 3.3 teaspoons of plant x... without chancing setting someones recovery right back to the stone age again.

Course, some people take emfor years and just stop em one day, and feel better forevermore... but I think theyre the rarity somehow. But yeah I think 5 years is the usual timeframe they work on, i guess if youre treating someone thats say 25 thats still only giving you 1/6th of their life by age 30 to fix the remainder... but having decided to follow the GSK or Pfizer route, it seems "safest" in cartoonishly simple terms to ride it out.

Then theres the theory that they deliberately engineer the "crash" into the pill regimes to make sure you buy next months pills without backchat... hard to argue with that one, either.

good luck, remember its a noble thing to be a carer but you cant help anyone if you feel like a punching bag

VM

[Storm crow]

from memory most docs work on a rough timeline of about 5 years from first contact to even thinking about getting people chem free... the most spectacular fuckups occur when someone basically doses for a year or two, gets all "better" by their own standards and stops taking the pills... as long as her doc is on the ball and understands that she has to work on her natural sources of feeling a bit better in conjunction with realistic expectations AND then very gradullay tapering off the meds, all kinds of nasty shit can happen.

5 years till you have to stop, 5 mins to get a prescription. Gotta love the way the 'health' system works when it comes to 'mental illness'. The best advice I could give is to talk to people who have experience with this sort of thing; a good doctor(whether they be a GP, psychologist or psychiatrist etc) makes a big difference.

My experience with conventional medicine and being diagnosed as bipolar has been far from positive but also certainly far from wholistically negative. I am one of those people who came off his meds of his own volition, after attempting to discuss it with my doctor and being told 'You have to be on this medication for life.' I came off meds 5 months ago and have never felt better. I did so under the supervision of a nurse who had known me for 8 years, so she could inform me if I was 'going off the rails' but all I had was positive change. My energy, motivation and zest for life returned. I started exercising again, eating healthy food, meditating and deep breathing, and most importantly, socialising and finding a sense of belonging and purpose in life. Pretty much everything a psychologist will tell you is important on the path of healing and integrating back into society. Smoking marijuana was initially fundamental to the healing process for me, something that won't be espoused by most conventional medical practitioners, especially in relation to a diagnosis of bipolar. I meant Cannabis causes psychosis, right?

The 'correct' way to come off anti-depressants and other medication is to reduce the dose slowly over time. I halved mine initially, then when I went to halve it again a week or two later(much swifter than the recommended detox) I kept forgetting to take it as I was so busy living again. After 2 days of forgetting to take it with no negative repercussions, I decided not to take it again and haven't looked back since.

Edited January 28, 2008 by Tarnicus

[chilli]

5 years till you have to stop, 5 mins to get a prescription. Gotta love the way the 'health' system works when it comes to 'mental illness'. The best advice I could give is to talk to people who have experience with this sort of thing; a good doctor(whether they be a GP, psychologist or psychiatrist etc) makes a big difference.

My experience with conventional medicine and being diagnosed as bipolar has been far from positive but also certainly far from wholistically negative. I am one of those people who came off his meds of his own volition, after attempting to discuss it with my doctor and being told 'You have to be on this medication for life.' I came off meds 5 months ago and have never felt better. I did so under the supervision of a nurse who had known me for 8 years, so she could inform me if I was 'going off the rails' but all I had was positive change. My energy, motivation and zest for life returned. I started exercising again, eating healthy food, meditating and deep breathing, and most importantly, socialising and finding a sense of belonging and purpose in life. Pretty much everything a psychologist will tell you is important on the path of healing and integrating back into society. Smoking marijuana was initially fundamental to the healing process for me, something that won't be espoused by most conventional medical practitioners, especially in relation to a diagnosis of bipolar. I meant Cannabis causes psychosis, right?

The 'correct' way to come off anti-depressants and other medication is to reduce the dose slowly over time. I halved mine initially, then when I went to halve it again a week or two later(much swifter than the recommended detox) I kept forgetting to take it as I was so busy living again. After 2 days of forgetting to take it with no negative repercussions, I decided not to take it again and haven't looked back since.

Yeah, slowly reduce the dose... very slowly. If she reacts after missing one tablet, maybe just try reducing by 1/2 or even 1/4 to start, gradually lowering the dose at the same rate each week.

When I went of SSRI's, I tried explaining to my wife that I was getting this symptom which felt like an electric shock in my head sporadically, and increasingly frequent as I stayed off them... I noticed it if I missed a dose occasionally, but when I went off them altogether it got so bad I was getting 'zapped' every five minutes. My wife seemed skeptical at first, and said she'd never heard of it... a couple of years later a new discovery is made that the SSRI's I was on (fluvoxamine) produce a side-effect they'd dubbed "electric shock syndrome" LOL

[watertrade]

I think everyone who has posted has already given good advice. My story if it helps...

I was on a pretty strong dose of Anti-D for about 7 years - I was getting 5x repeats from my GP having not been to the first prescribing shrink for ages (years) there was basically no follow up care. I asked for the prescription and they gave it to me. (I should have asked for more exciting meds!) Anyway, one day while at the chemist the pharmacists suggested I go and see another doctor as the anti-D meds were being taken off the market due to some people having liver problems. I went to the GP and discussed the possibility of changing medication. It wasn't going to be a problem but I had to have 2 weeks change over period before taking anything new.

That was going to be hard. I couldn't go for more than a few hours in the morning without going into a thick cloudy head where I couldn't really hold conversations with people - it was like being sucked into my own brain where it was hard to escape... Not particularly bad just weird and uncomfortable.

So rather than change meds I got the good doctor to write me more prescriptions - I stockpiled a years worth of medication.

I went from 1 tablet twice a day to half a tablet twice a day... this went on for about 18 months until I was taking about 1/8 a tablet once a day.

And then I ran out... and nothing happened. I went on doing everything as usual.

When I was on the really lose doses 'the world came back' ;)

Two of the best times in my life have been... 1: getting on anti depresents and 2: Getting off anti depresants.

It was a long but good journey. I would really encourage people to do what it takes to get healthy. Whatever it takes - take care of yourself.

[faustus]

i had a gf in the same situation, she'd get head palpitations when she stopped taking them, and was essentially physically "addicted" to antidepressants.

as others have suggested, best option is tapering off gradually, as antidepressants can trigger rebound depression/anxiety if you stop taking them suddenly. i've been on them for the past 8 years, every time i stop a major depressive episode returns soon thereafter. in the case of efexor, it made me homocidal for about 48 hours... i would have definitely killed someone from the slighest provocation.

so quitting your meds can be a dangerous thing!

i suggest you get her to do it with the help of a psychologist (and do CBT), which medicare now covers for up to 12 sessions.

[ThunderIdeal]

nobody has given advice yet on what ethnobotanical could be used IN CONJUNCTION with the above advice. i think this is what naja was really after.

anyway it's all true. notice in tarnicus' story, he had good support and care, and lots of positive things in his life? i don't think this can be overstated. i have lived with somebody who came off meds and acted like a skizophrenic really, maybe they would have been diagnosed as such i dunno. in hindsight, it was a really bad environment to be coming off of meds and the nearby people like me really weren't supportive or understanding, so it was pretty horrific for all involved. i would suggest you listen, provide advice but don't force it, don't patronise, and basically as a force of sanity remain gentle even when things get rough. things like breathing meditation and going for a walk might seem pretty simple but i imagine it makes all the difference when you are in that state.

[platypii]

Well, St Johns Wort could be tried, but you have to wait for at least 2 weeks until the SSRI's have cleared. Really, there is no particualr ethobotanical that could be used here....I know from personal experience smoking elfspice is very useful in alleviating depression/anxiety, but thats another issue. It would be helpful to know what medication she is on, as they vary greatly in half-lives. Some doctors will prescribe 2-3 50mg doses of prozac, which has an enormous half-life, and allegedly helps ease withdrawal of the SSRI's. But, I don't think much assistance can be given until we know the med...

[apothecary]

TI, nobody should give any such ethnobotanical advice without knowing what drugs naja is talking about, it's irresponsible.

I asked, the answer was mirtazapine, there are plenty of ethnobotanicals I would say stay the fuck away from, anything with MAOI activity especially carries serious risk of causing hypertension.

[planthelper]

i would not mix any ethnobotanicals or herbs with prescription ssri's. st. johns wort is contraindicated with ssri's, so it's a big no, no. sceletium might be save as an alternative, but i would still wain myselfe off the ssri's, before using sceletium.

sceletium, doesn't give you any of those horrible side effects as prescription ssri's do, the only thing i found when using sceletium is an increased possebilety of panick attacks.

i am just comming out of one of my worst depressive phases in my life, and for the first time i had given ssri's a go, but stopped them as they gave me a lot of bad side effects.

ssri's stopped me from enjoying the things i like doing, this was totaly counter productive in my case, as the best way of overcoming depression is to do things which enjoy and have fun with.

i tell you how to overcome depression, talk, talk, talk to somebody who cares!

edit:

the above post was made whilst i was writting...

yes i totaly agree with sina, i think i have experienced hypertesive crisis, and what have not a like, with various scenarios, and don't wish it to anyone.

Edited January 30, 2008 by planthelper

[Amulte]

mirtazapine is a TCA, not SSRI or MAOI.

potential fatal interactions with other Anti-deps.

about a year or more ago i weened myself off mirtazapine. my drive was safe ingestion of ayahuasca where legal. weened myself off by halfing dose 4 time over course of a month then stopped dosage at end.

tho everyone is different, Vert raises a good point too that should be considered before ceasing meds.

[chilli]

Well, St Johns Wort could be tried, but you have to wait for at least 2 weeks until the SSRI's have cleared. Really, there is no particualr ethobotanical that could be used here....I know from personal experience smoking elfspice is very useful in alleviating depression/anxiety, but thats another issue. It would be helpful to know what medication she is on, as they vary greatly in half-lives. Some doctors will prescribe 2-3 50mg doses of prozac, which has an enormous half-life, and allegedly helps ease withdrawal of the SSRI's. But, I don't think much assistance can be given until we know the med...

Prozac is an SSRI...

[wandjina]

Anyone considering discontinuing use of ssris or benzos would be well advised, imo, to consult the work of Dr David Healy....an outspoken critic of the influence of pharmaceutical companies on academic psychiatry...including 'disease mongering'

here is his protocol for withdrawing from ssris:

http://www.benzo.org.uk/healy.htm

http://www.benzo.org.uk/

is well worth a look too ^

No idea who's behind this site, but has more info on 'tapering off':

http://www.antidepressantsfacts.com/taper.htm

ditto:

http://www.depression-guide.com/antidepres...-withdrawal.htm

and an Australian one:

http://www.australianprescriber.com/magazine/24/1/13/5/

Healys writings on big pharma and the 'antidepressant era' (& eponymous book) are well worth a read for anyone taking, considering taking or generally interested in how knowledge has been, and is, constructed about anti-dep medications, especially ssris.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Healy_(psychiatrist)

http://www.pharmapolitics.com/feb2healy.html

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/182/5/388

[t st tantra]

damiana seemed good to me,happy all the time on a dose every 2 days,stopped taking it so i'd have a choice......felt drugged in the long run.

one of my friends liked damiana so much when she ran out she went on a prescription anti depressant.....i dont understand why she didnt get more damiana!

t s t .

[naja naja]

Efexor- XR is wat she's on. A SNRI

[planthelper]

hmm, effexor is aswell a norepinephrine (spell??) uptake inhibitor, which makes it a bit harder to stopp taking in my humble opinon. i only ever took this capsule twice, the second time even against my own wish, because something inside me already craved some of the sensation it gave me. effexor gave me after just one 75mg dose following side effects, jaw clenching (like on speed, no wonder it recycles noradrenalin!!), inabilety to reach orgasm, insomnia, hyperactivety, increased unwanted thoughts (lost the abilety to detach from those thoughts), loss of pleasure centre (could not experience pleasure or a high).

effexor sucks!!

[naja naja]

Cheers PH, I am working with her ATM. And I think SNRI stands for seritonin norephrine reuptake inhibitor.

She's on 75mg tabs and has been for 3.5 years. The doc has given her a script for lower dose(37.5mg) tabs and she is gona get them soon. The fucking quack actually had the audacity to tell her to stay on the stronger ones when she asked for the lower dose to get off them. Asshole!!

She is really keen to get off them, so that helps. Will get her on lower dose and work from there.

It seems that chang is not contradictory to this SNRI. This seems to have been confirmed, but I would like to hear others opinions on the pro's and con's of wat psychedelics can be (physically) safely consumed while on SNRI's

[apothecary]

I thought you said mirtazapine naja?

norepinephrine is the correct spelling.

There are lots of threads about drug interactions with effexor, a recent one in the pharm forum if I recall correctly.

I have noted that while some people who are on effexor do not have to be 'careful' in their ingestion habits, but usually effects of serotonergics are greatly diminished (not all people tho).

[naja naja]

These pills are sum of that fancy new micro bead slow release technology. Once she gets onto the lowest dose ones, is it possible to half or quarter these pills sumhow? Just half the beads and recap?

And nah sina, it if Effexor XR.

Edited February 2, 2008 by naja naja

[Vertmorpheus]

Bigarse post, depression shits me... if as many people were missing limbs as there are missing a sense of purpose, then we'd be seeing a lot more action about it all.

tIdeal, I could recommend things til the cows come home, but then I don't want me being "helpful" to turn into someone else getting attacked with the contents of the knifeblock, or someone to otherwise regress in their treatment. I could be more helpful if we open up the workin def of ethnobotanical to mean not just entertaining plants but ones that are "just" good for you... in which case load up on all those free radical hunting superfoods, get stuck into the pineapple juice, and eat as much fresh fruit and veggies as possible. Consider aromatherapy, even if not in the "normal" sense just hunt up smells that remind you of being happy (jasmine does it for me, QLD xmas n all that)... use warming earthy spices to make healthy comfort foods (say oat cookies with apple and allspice, or something) to take a lil more comfort in your home life. Drink more tea and less coffee...I love my coffee but it does tend to run a bit "hot" for me somedays, tea has that nice blend of up and down that can help pull you back into line.

And be careful with any of those sleepytime tea blends, some depression prone ppl myself included find theyre lovely for a night or two, tops, any more than that and they seem to trigger off another down cycle, esp if they have the GABA thing going on or are valerian based. Valerian, oddly enough, makes me get the kind of shitty, sooky, angry kind of feelings I had only previously seen in some people when they drink alcohol. Weirder still is that alcohol doesn't affect me like that, even in largeish amounts. And don't forget one of the most healing things you can do with a plant... just growing it! A few ppl I've known, myself included once again, were helped a great deal by having lil green creatures depending on you getting off your bum at least a couple times a day...they can provide an important sense of progress, development, time passing that is often lacking from the conscious thoughts of depressed people... and ANY plant can be educational without you ever eating any of it... they are full of allegory and metaphor and mystery waiting to be applied to your own life and challenges.

Re the doc upping the dose when she expressed wanting to get off em, unfortunately that's a bit like when a doc says "stay off the foot for two weeks"...they KNOW youll be on it in a week, but if they told you a week, youd be on it in 3 days, etc. A lot of ppl getting the ortho treatment for depressive illnesses get a bit rebellious about their treatment once its helped them get clear headed enough to realise how dependent they are on them,how hard it is on those nearest to them, etc... its all part of it, whether you believe in the pillhead option or would rather everyone was munching non standardised herbal preparations (note... I'm not against anything on the basis of it being non standardised, its just a descriptive).

I once heard someone refer to it as the Itchy Cast syndrome... you know when its time to leave your arm in plaster for another week or two, its a week or two after you cant stand the itching anymore ;) Bit like a grafted plant too... yknow how sometimes the tacked on bit is just roaring to grow but it hasnt quite healed up as well as it should...so you have to give it the odd tip prune and hold back water a lil etc until it all heals up with enough strength to suuport the new growth. Many ppl being treated for depression see mto recover, and soar like eagles on acid til they run into the mountain of cold reality again...then they crash twice as bad as a> their brains are good at acting like that and b> theyre kicking themselves in the bum over it all.

My favourite person ever has been on the AD thing for a couple years now, and whilst its flattened some traits and magnified others, overall I am just gobsmacked by the amount of progress shes made (of course, its hard to tell where the pills stop and the atmosphere-conducive-to-open-conversation takes over!) and we have noticed a cycle of down-average-up-up but frustrated-edgy-antimedication-down-average and so on... but each time the cycle complete a revolution it seems to cliumkb one step further up the spiral so to speak... so we have faith thus far. Of course, things like eating an actual breakfast, getting enough sleep and making a point of having some kind of simple fun every day are massively helpful too.

I was one seriously depressed fuck for years... depression seemed too glamourous a word for what amounted to not wanting to be alive anymore but not having the get up n go to do anything active about it... coulda slept up to 18 hours a day, and every night I went to sleep I'd wish not to wake up in the morning... never got into the pills and somehow i got over it all but it took me fuckin years of very conscious and careful reprogramming, especially watching the language I used to talk to myself (censorship has the occasional upside), and refusing to have anything to do with nasty people... negative was ok for a while, now n then, and genuinely upset etc was fine, but anyone with that fucked-up-for-the-fun-of-it kinda approach just made me feel sick in the guts for days. Also didn't help getting glandular fever AND giardia in the space of a year to kick it all off, either.But the three most important understandings for me were....

1> you cant and wont be happy all the time, and only a ningnong beats emselves up for being otherwise... happy now n then is great, being happy and comfortable at HEART is essential, but that oprah-vision warm glow to everything yo usee kinda happy simply cant be sustained without some serious chemical input. Aim for comfortable, and satisfied (but not too much...).

2> people can be great, some aren't. You wouldnt put uranium in your brain so don't let toxic people into it either.

3> remind yourself constantly in an active sense of what you have, what youve done, what youve experienced, what you have... think less about what you want for tomorrow and more about what you have for today... but don't get bogged down in moments and expect them to last forever or all join up. Some days are just shitboring and not very inspiring... but it beats being shelled by Israeli guns, or finding out you have a malignant growth somewhere inside you... learn to take simple pleasure in the things around you, like being on green or goldies but without the timeline.

Alls good now, and part of me thinks it all happened so I'd be better equipped to be more helpful for the massive amount of people I know that have similar things going on now. One important thing to remember is that depression is one thing, being genuinely down in the mouth because your life is not your own, your not getting what you want and need etc, is a serious thing too... all the pills in the world wont help if you have any kind of good reason to be unhappy. A mates dad died a while back and he was pretty fucked up about it all (things left unsaid), other mates jumped in with the go on the pills suggestion... there was me having to explain that no...thats actually an entirely normal and essential part of being alive and the pills are only to be used when how your feeling gets int he way of what youre doing... half of em got it, half of em thought I was a fool, but I'm sure yez know what I mean here.

huge bags of luck with beating it,

VM

[Guest Øskorei]

Two of the best times in my life have been... 1: getting on anti depresents and 2: Getting off anti depressants.

Hear Hear. Whilst SSRI's can pull one into an odd sense of 'not depressed anymore', the journey can often be one that saps the user's ability to experience ANY emotions, and simply cruise along feeling neither any real variation in the highs & lows that human life might offer. Whilst this might be viewed as a welcome escape from the dark lethargy of long term depression (or more the assumed diagnosis of.....), it's probably best to use the A/D pharms as a key to beating the black dog, then think about leaving the relationship at the counter after that.

Getting off anti-depressants is a wonderful thing, and I concure with watertrade's statement that both ends of the straw are great, the latter especially when you realise that you have a soul once again. I also agree with other statements made in this thread that 'weaning-off' is perhaps essential, but I don't think a 'doctor's supervision' is required.

On a personal note, I went cold turkey after being on AD's (a duration of less than 12 months), and all manner of nasty stuff unfolded, such as roughing up a pizza shop employee because he wanted to surcharge the bill (10% percent public holiday charge FFS ! Nuffin ! ), being actively involved in an armed gang brawl (of which I knew none of either 'team', therefore had no personally emotional input to the situation), destroying various things around the house, wanting/trying to drink myself to death, and more. And this was the first week and a half after taking away the pills. So yes, things can start getting ugly psychologically when the drugs are reduced to zero without a weening off period. If I was to be in the situation again (in theory... in reality I would NEVER start them again), there's no way I'd go cold turkey.

[platypii]

mirtazapine is a TCA, not SSRI or MAOI.

Mirtazepine is a noradrenergic and specific serotonergic antidepressant (NaSSA). Its just based on the tetracyclic structure. And yeah, Illegal Brain, Prozac is indeed an SSRI- with an immense helf-life. This would only really mean anything if naja naja's friend was on an SSRI- when quitting a drug, usually a similar drug in terms of M.O.A is given, but with a longer duration, effectively allowing your brain to slowly, slwoy withdraw.

I've been on various antidepressants over the years; ch@nga is a definte no-no, but most other preparations (pure xtrakt) of spice are fine. Most entheogens are, obviously except for any MAO inhibiting substances. I am currently weaning off zoloft because I wish to safely consume ayahuasca....and not be a stupid zombie tits all the time

[chilli]

Mirtazepine is a noradrenergic and specific serotonergic antidepressant (NaSSA). Its just based on the tetracyclic structure. And yeah, Illegal Brain, Prozac is indeed an SSRI- with an immense helf-life. This would only really mean anything if naja naja's friend was on an SSRI- when quitting a drug, usually a similar drug in terms of M.O.A is given, but with a longer duration, effectively allowing your brain to slowly, slwoy withdraw.

I've been on various antidepressants over the years; ch@nga is a definte no-no, but most other preparations (pure xtrakt) of spice are fine. Most entheogens are, obviously except for any MAO inhibiting substances. I am currently weaning off zoloft because I wish to safely consume ayahuasca....and not be a stupid zombie tits all the time

Yeah sry bro, I realized what you meant afterwards, but forgot to edit my post... just wanted to add though, I'm sure you mean this anyway but just for clarity of anyone reading this who is depressed and is thinking about getting off their tits, "most other preparations of spice are fine" I'm sure you mean fine in your experience, and other's experiences may differ, but it kind of sounds like a general comment.

Pedantic Man strikes again!

I wish I could be Panties Man, instead.

[oxydiser]

She's been hooked for 3 years and knows she's addicted

I would hesitate to use the word addiction, which implies that she would be having serious drug seeking behaviour and be needing larger amounts of the drug to get the same effect

These pills are sum of that fancy new micro bead slow release technology. Once she gets onto the lowest dose ones, is it possible to half or quarter these pills sumhow? Just half the beads and recap?

Yup, the beads are the controlled release mechanism, you can count them out to ensure an accurate dose - no need to recap them either. Efexor is notoriously hard to get off, I would definately involve a doctor (though not the fuckwit doctor she has now)