Growing "Peyote" and "False Peyotes" from Seed

[mark80]

I spew some garbage sometimes,

Edited January 7, 2008 by mark80

[Ace]

Futher more perservation is the name of the game. If I had 100 S. disciformis cactuses I would donate three or four of them to somebody willing to ingest them and give me and the community a full report.

OK, first up, the plural of cactus is cacti. And to get to the point of having a collection of 100 strombos raised from seed to the point that you could knock a few off for consumption would take decades. I can assure you - many cacti will outlive you, and you will not give them the attention span that you think you have. No one can/will without a huge amount of effort. Going by how you talk, I am very certain this is something that you cannot grasp.

I want people, possibly including myself to "Test the entheogenic vaule of various species and write full reports on their usage, dosage and effects".

Fair enough, but why say clearly that you arent going to eat them when you know very well that you intend to cultivate them for consumption?

I am not looking to get high. I am searching for new entheogens....which for some reason I find terribly interesting...

I can totally relate to you on your search for new entheogens, but at the same time, I find you are doing nothing but contradicting yourself. You say clearly that you dont want to get high, but you want to get high. So what is it?

Imagine...If we could find one more...ONE more cactus that rivaled Lophophora or Trichocereus how amazing that would be...

Considering how many centuries/millenia have been spent alongside cacti, I'm sure that native americans would have found them by now. If you want a new drug to be named after you, or to get the glory for a new generation of 'open-minded people', look into synthesis of new compounds. Cacti, from my point of view, has little more to offer in regards to psychedelic/mind manifesting compounds which humans can consume. Like I have said before - look into other types of plants with historical use, or those without any written history, and perhaps look into studying them. Either that or synthetics.

I think it's worth the time and the money and the risk! Is nobody with me?

Why not get onboard with something like MAPS? We here are nothing but individuals on the other side of the globe - nowhere near a wild cactus specimen (apart from the occasional feral opuntia). Most of us only have small collections, focusing on those in the loph/trich families, and dont have money or time to blow on finding something that is unlikely to be found. A proper psychedelic organisation like MAPS or similar (I'm sure there'd be a couple) would be much more appropriate for your aspirations.

EDIT: I'm also curious as to why you felt the need to put 'preservation' in the title of this thread? This has nothing to do with preservation of peyote or false peyotes, it simply shows that you wish to exploit a mythical/undiscovered species. Yet another contradiction between 'preservation' and 'exploitation'...

Edited January 7, 2008 by Ace

[Teotzlcoatl]

As to know confuse anybody...

I want to KNOW if I can get high...but I don't really wanna get high...

I plan on spending my life doing this...maybe I will lose interest, but I doubt it...

Again Ace, thank you! You are full of wonderful advice.

Considering how many centuries/millenia have been spent alongside cacti, I'm sure that native americans would have found them by now.

The Native Americans DID find them...that's what the list is, but we don't employ 99% of them!

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[apothecary]

Wow!

Not really nescessary for mark and Ace to gang up on Teotz?

How about we go and pick holes through YOUR posts?

OK, first up, the plural of cactus is cacti.

Yeah, I am sure he knows this. Is your beef that he really doesn't speak perfect english?

I can assure you - many cacti will outlive you, and you will not give them the attention span that you think you have. No one can/will without a huge amount of effort. Going by how you talk, I am very certain this is something that you cannot grasp.

That is some fucking elitist bullshit?

Going by how YOU talk, what exactly makes you more deserving to grow cacti than Teotz?

I can totally relate to you on your search for new entheogens, but at the same time, I find you are doing nothing but contradicting yourself. You say clearly that you dont want to get high, but you want to get high. So what is it?

Maybe you should read his post before you jump down his throat? He is going to donate some specimens for bioassay. What the fuck is wrong with that?

I hope you're not so dumb as to realise that people can contribute to the research and discovery of possible new sources of psychoactives without any consumption on their part?

Considering how many centuries/millenia have been spent alongside cacti, I'm sure that native americans would have found them by now.

Err yeaaahhh right. Because people from the Indian subcontinent discovered A. nervosa as a hallucinogen, and Australian aborigines discovered Psilocybe subaeruginosa or various Acacias as hallucinogens?

Oh wait, no they didn't. Wow I can't believe there might be an undiscovered plant out there.

Cacti, from my point of view, has little more to offer in regards to psychedelic/mind manifesting compounds which humans can consume.

This is possibly the silliest thing I have ever read in this forum.

Frankly, if this is your point of view then why even bother contributing to a thread about growing and testing possible new psychoactives?

Why not get onboard with something like MAPS? We here are nothing but individuals on the other side of the globe - nowhere near a wild cactus specimen (apart from the occasional feral opuntia). Most of us only have small collections, focusing on those in the loph/trich families, and dont have money or time to blow on finding something that is unlikely to be found. A proper psychedelic organisation like MAPS or similar (I'm sure there'd be a couple) would be much more appropriate for your aspirations.

Heh? I'm actually laughing now? So everyone who wants to contribute to research into new plant psychoactives has to fall in under one banner or another? They can't do their own thing on their own time in their own way?

We aren't all small time collectors with no forward vision, some members here (with much more rational contributions than your post) are literally on the bleeding edge of this research with both the money and the dedication to do this research. But that doesn't mean they make all the discoveries.

Amongst other total crapola lines from Ace in this thread

As for using cacti entheogenically in modern times, I can see the practice slowly fading.

The very fact that lophs are illegal in the US is a great thing.

Here's one from mark

And how do you plan to do number 3 without eating them?

How about any of the many many different methods of quantitative and qualitative analysis?

Even just a line "contains alkaloids 2% dry weight" is better than no info! Or a photo of TLC work from the cactus? And I'd give up one specimen out of one hundred seed grown ones for either any day!

Gimme a break. Teotz got banned from the nook and his behaviour/posts sometimes leave something to be desired, but for you to stomp his intent in a freaking propagation forum is so low it isn't funny. Provide tangible help or STFU.

Teotz, there are more Pachycereus species than the one you listed which are possibly active. Check out the Stenocereus genus which overlaps.

[Ace]

I WANT TO GET HIGH!

Then I dont perticularly want to educate you on how to grow rare and endangered species just so you can hope to get high. These species deserve much more respect than it appears you wish to show them, no matter how you wish to convince people otherwise. Good luck with that. I can only hope that you are smarter than you sound - I really feel sad for any truly beautiful plants that come into your hands if you intend to munch them down for your benefit.

Again Ace, thank you! You are full of wonderful advice.

Thank you. I got to this point by doing a huge amount (like several years) worth of asking questions, trawling books, the net and other forms of media. Some of the information I have come across is complete rubbish, some is very factual and useful. Its just a matter of finding the facts amongst the BS.

Could you give me a link to MAPS?

I'll do one better and give you one of the best websites I know: www.google.com. Here you can search for MAPS and more, all on your own. This might seem somewhat prick-like on my behalf, but there is an old saying - give a man a fish, he eats for a night. Teach a man to fish, he eats for the rest of his life.

The Native Americans DID find them...that's what the list is, but we don't employ 99% of them!

There are many reasons for this - the rarity of species (who knows how many species have already been wiped out due to over-harvest/consumption, many of which may have made lophs look like mere mamms); dangers presented in consuming them (toxins, etc); lack of medicinal/ethnobotanical use (lack of concentrated alkaloids, might not be effective on everyone); etc, etc. You seem to think that there will be a loph equivalent amongst those on your list or somewhere on the planet. Odds are that it would have already been discovered and brought to your attention, or it has been wiped out already due to idiots overharvesting. And if there is something waiting to be discovered, it will be out in the wild, not in a seedbank.

[apothecary]

And if there is something waiting to be discovered, it will be out in the wild, not in a seedbank.

Rubbish.

[indigo264nm]

You tell em Sina!!!

[Teotzlcoatl]

I sort of meant the "I want to get high" thing as a joke...

He is going to donate some specimens for bioassay. What is wrong with that?

I hope you're not so dumb as to realise that people can contribute to the research and discovery of possible new sources of psychoactives without any consumption on their part?

I've said the thing about my mushroom trip 100 times now...

I don't plan on doing entheogens anytime soon, but I do enjoy growing entheogenic plants...

And that's all I'm gonna say about that.

I have soo much work to do...and I AM way over my head...

I'm just putting ideas out there, in the hopes somebody will help me with my cause.

There are many reasons for this - the rarity of species (who knows how many species have already been wiped out due to over-harvest/consumption, many of which may have made lophs look like mere mamms); dangers presented in consuming them (toxins, etc); lack of medicinal/ethnobotanical use (lack of concentrated alkaloids, might not be effective on everyone); etc, etc. You seem to think that there will be a loph equivalent amongst those on your list or somewhere on the planet. Odds are that it would have already been discovered and brought to your attention, or it has been wiped out already due to idiots overharvesting. And if there is something waiting to be discovered, it will be out in the wild, not in a seedbank.

Your right! Let's forget about those "Lost Peyotes" and never find out if they are entheogenic or not....

Cause....who cares?!

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

Cheers Sina - you can bite my head off as much as you want, I really couldnt give two fucks what you think (and I know for a fact that I'm not the only one who doesnt care what you think). I have tried to provide some information for Teotz to work with, he can take it as it is or take it and work with it. I am trying to educate him that growing stuff is great - it doesnt need to revolve around getting high. If thats what makes growing things interesting, then great. I just find it closed minded that he doesnt bother looking at other rare species, simply because it wont get you zonked.

As for referring him to MAPS, I really feel that this would be up his alley. I wasnt pushing him away because I dont want him here, I was just trying to provide an area to help him out.

That is some fucking elitist bullshit? Going by how YOU talk, what exactly makes you more deserving to grow cacti

than Teotz?

Growing cacti takes decades of hard work - something that I cannot even fathom. For a newb to say that he wants to go all out with such limited experience really shows that his understanding of this fact is very limited.

I hope you're not so dumb as to realise that people can contribute to the research and discovery of possible new sources of psychoactives without any consumption on their part?

Teotz has clearly stated that he wants to get high and grow cacti that will get him there. How about you do a little more reading?

Wow I can't believe there might be an undiscovered plant out there.

I didnt say that there isnt one, I just said that it is very unlikely to find one, especially when looking at those that have already been studied.

This is possibly the silliest thing I have ever read in this forum.

Frankly, if this is your point of view then why even bother contributing to a thread about growing and testing possible new psychoactives?

I have knowledge on how to grow cacti. I had hoped to share this with Teotz. Just because I feel that new discoveried are not likely to be made (not saying whatsoever that they wont be made), doesnt mean that I cannot contribute to a thread.

We aren't all small time collectors with no forward vision, some members here (with much more rational contributions than your post) are literally on the bleeding edge of this research with both the money and the dedication to do this research. But that doesn't mean they make all the discoveries.

Good point, I'll give you that one.

Provide tangible help or STFU.

I have provided help. So how about you STFU?

[incognito]

Cacti, from my point of view, has little more to offer in regards to psychedelic/mind manifesting compounds which humans can consume.

As for using cacti entheogenically in modern times, I can see the practice slowly fading.

i STRONGLY disagree.

do u have any experience with psychoactive cacti at ALL ace? have u any involvement with people who use cacti as a medicine AT ALL?? how long have u been reading these forums?

can i ask where and how u base these statements? please explain?

[Teotzlcoatl]

Hey now lets not fight!

Ace thanks for the info.

Sina thanks for backing me up.

I just find it closed minded that he doesnt bother looking at other rare species, simply because it wont get you zonked.

I do enjoy/grow other rare species of plants and cacti which do not have entheogenic properties...but what is there to discover about them?

They just look cool...

Growing cacti takes decades of hard work - something that I cannot even fathom. For a newb to say that he wants to go all out with such limited experience really shows that his understanding of this fact is very limited.

I know it will be 10-15 years before I have the collection I desire...even then, it will not be complete...

This is my life long project, what I truly enjoy...and I wish to put the time and attention into that it deserves.

Ace again I thank you for your cultivation knowledge, and even your input about the existance of new entheogens.

All comments are welcome, I'm only in the begining stages of this project and ideas are always welcomed.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

i STRONGLY disagree.

do u have any experience with psychoactive cacti at ALL ace? have u any involvement with people who use cacti as a medicine AT ALL?? how long have u been reading these forums?

can i ask where and how u base these statements? please explain?

Fair call Jono (and I think Sina pulled me up on that too). I was referring to use by American Natives, not by communities like ours (I should have been thinking of that!). I can officially say that no, I have never experienced mescaline. I have grown mescaline containing cacti for about 3 years now. I have been reading these forums for about the same time. I had simply based those statements on the fact that peyote is becoming so rare in Mexico/Texas that I think it will begin to be a slowly dying tradition as the supplies run out (unless, of course, something is done to conserve the wild populations). I also failed to think of the use of trichs - I'm sure that tradition will continue well into the future, due to the fast growth and widespread distribution of the family.

Fair enough, I was probably (well, definately) coming down on Teotz harshly, but it was simply to show that growing things doesnt have to be limited to certain things, but thinking about it now, I can see that this thought is flawed in that I do the same thing to some extent.

I do enjoy/grow other rare species of plants and cacti which do not have entheogenic properties...but what is there to discover about them? They just look cool...

Teotz, I am glad that you do, and I know that they can seem dull in comparison to those that can truly blow your mind with beauty and fear. I like growing other species for many reasons - shapes, textures, colours, smells, rarity, etc. But none feel to be on the same level as those with mescaline, simply because the mind-blowing factor is so intensly wonderous.

Hey now lets not fight!

Truce

Edit: And if there is something waiting to be discovered, it will be out in the wild, not in a seedbank.

Rubbish.

I was not referring to new species, but to those that have been around for many years, still awaiting discovery (so was Teotz, from what I can see). I do believe that with enough breeding that there will be some intensly powerful plants to be found, but that was not what I was talking about, and can be seen if you read the rest of that paragraph.

Edited January 7, 2008 by Ace

[mu!]

Growing cacti takes decades of hard work

LOL, thats priceless. I dunno how you go about growin cactussesssss, but IME it hardly involves "hard work"

And as for growing plants to get high, whats wrong with that? I do it. Its fun, safe & rewarding. It may just be the start of things for some ppl, but it can definitely lead to other interesting aspects of drug-taking. I dont think anybody has to justify to anyone their drug-use on these forums.

And as for the whole "you're killing these living beings!" stance, do you say a prayer for your lettuce before you eat it?

*sigh* eyuck, an old chestnut.... not again

Keep up the good work Teotz, who knows where it'll lead.

[gilligan]

I know a gnome who likes to write reports...

Send samples this way and i'll see it receives them...

Edited January 7, 2008 by gilligan

[mark80]

Here's one from mark

How about any of the many many different methods of quantitative and qualitative analysis?

Even just a line "contains alkaloids 2% dry weight" is better than no info! Or a photo of TLC work from the cactus? And I'd give up one specimen out of one hundred seed grown ones for either any day!

Gimme a break. Teotz got banned from the nook and his behaviour/posts sometimes leave something to be desired, but for you to stomp his intent in a freaking propagation forum is so low it isn't funny. Provide tangible help or STFU.

3) Test the entheogenic vaule of various species and write full reports on their usage, dosage and effects.

I do react harshly sometimes, i will edit out my garbage posts.

However, I still fail to see how dosage and effects can be done in any other way then than bioessay.

[Teotzlcoatl]

They will be done with a bioessay, but I'm not the one who is going to be eating the cacti.

I am willing to donate a few specimens to anybody who would like to give it a try.

I would like to see this be a community effort.

As far as killing these rare plants goes, I can see where you are coming from...

But my wish is preserve these species while at the same time studying them and documenting their uses and effects.

Even if the effects of some of these cacti are not entheogenic, they may have other interesting properties....

[gilligan]

Even if the effects of some of these cacti are not entheogenic, they may have other interesting properties....

Like making you grow feathers and a comb and squawk like a chicken. I really want to find that one. I'd call it Gillicereus chickensis.

[kadakuda]

good luck man. aztekium are REALLY damn slow....i mean SLOW. i tried them from seeds and gave them to a friend with more room. 4 years now they are 1.5 cm....

i only have grafted ones now, cause they are really slow. best of luck to you and seed growing though...they are not hard to do, just time consuming...which is all cacti really are, time spent. ariocarpus are pretty damn slow too...

[Teotzlcoatl]

Yea it WILL take forever, but I think it's worth it.

One thing I've heard about Aztekium is that it cannot be grafted and put back on it's own roots.

Two sources have stated this- Ben from S.S. and Adam G.'s book "Peyotes and Other Psychoactive Cacti"

Edited January 7, 2008 by Teotz'

[Auxin]

One thing I've heard about Aztekium is that it cannot be grafted and put back on it's own roots.

If you are aiming for discovery dont limit yourself by rumors/unproven hypothesis like these. When someone cant achieve something they often proclaim it as impossible to save face In this case they probably just didnt find the right procedure or conditions needed.

And good work tolerating the folks that have a wild hair up their ass

[Teotzlcoatl]

And good work tolerating the folks that have a wild hair up their ass

You have no idea how used to that kinda thing I am....

Doesn't bother me one bit anymore.

I do wish I hadn't got banned from some of my favorite forums tho...

[recondite]

Edited January 8, 2008 by recondite

[Teotzlcoatl]

THAT's your 2nd post?

Did you come here just to mess with me?

Will you please edit that?

Edited January 8, 2008 by Teotz'

[Ace]

I am very disappointed in the fact that what should have been a pretty good thread has turned to rubbish. And what makes it worse is that I played a big part of that. For that fact, I appologise to all and Teotz' in perticular. Please, can we attempt to move back to the subject at hand - Peyote and the 'False' Peyotes. I dont perticularly want to see this placed in the rubbish section because of some petty crap. I know thats a big call coming from the person who probably started the degeneration of this thread (no excuses there, just an appology), but I'd like it stopped just as much as Teotz does (I hope)

Recondite, I'm sure that petty accusations can find a place in a private PM, or if you feel the need, perhaps start a new thread in the bitches section.

EDIT: And for those who wanted to back you up, with all due respect, F*ck You.

We dont want to see this kind of rubbish on this forum. Being your second post, you have shown nothing but offense to those who regularly post here and contribute. Teotz did deserve a bit of backing up - I had gone overboard with several comments and had taken a contradictory stance myself, which needed to be pointed out. The people who had pointed out my poor stance dont deserve your abuse because of a personal grudge against Teotz, even if s/he happens to be fanatical about cacti and could have a deeper motive. Thats a different issue all together, one which the moderators will no doubt look into if they feel the need.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Ace

[Teotzlcoatl]

I have hated this sort of drama ever since it began on the shroomery long ago.

If you need the full story about me being an NBC, FBI or CIA agent PM me and I'll tell you alllll about it...

Ace again you have my thanks, for bringing the direction of this thread back on course and also for all the vauble information you provided me with.

You were the only person to address my question about a growing medium for seedlings.

I'll attempt to post some more interesting info on "peyotes" when I have the chance.

Edited January 8, 2008 by Teotz'