A sad site (image heavy)

[inpsyght]

.

Edited February 7, 2012 by inpsyght

[incognito]

So I don't think we should have any hesitation is razing old growth rainforest for DMT if necesary. (which it wouldn't be actually!)

so the rumors r true? u r completely nuts?

[incognito]

So I don't think we should have any hesitation is razing old growth rainforest for DMT if necesary. (which it wouldn't be actually!)

so the rumors r true? u r completely nuts?

i just think its kinda crazy to believe that dmt is gonna solve all mankinds problems?

i mean u dont have to smoke dmt to have a spiritual experience right, to instigate change within urself?

alot of people that have smoked dmt do not like it (myself included) all i, and others i have spoken with can convey is a state of horror and insanity? i mean just because a certain portion of people have spirititual experiences on dmt doent mean that the rest of the population will, and to propose that a forest should be razed for dmt if necessary IS insane.

[ThunderIdeal]

well, bulldozing the amazon to get two years worth of pasture is insane.

it's literally, completely fucking insane.

which to me makes eating beef completely insane.

i can't relate in the slightest, about dmt conjuring horror and insanity. it's very overwhelming and bizarre, i don't find it horrible or insane. i agree that not everybody is going to have a positive change as a result, but it's enough to hope that a few people will.

[apothecary]

I haven't read a single post here where someone has said that they want to see large scale environmental damage being done.

lol are you serious? Who's gonna say that? The fact of the matter is several participants in this thread are involved in their own small scale environmental damage contributing to a larger scale problem in several forms. They are apathetically ignorant to the impact they are participating in and that makes me sick.

Julian, and what of those of us who have tried the compounds in many forms many times over, those who recognise the positive immensity of these plants and their compounds, who are immensely pro-active and grateful, but STILL get indignant when various people refuse to heed any opinions suggesting their actions have issue? Are you actually suggesting our indignation makes us ungrateful?

(and this begs the question, what pro-activity have YOU participated in, exactly?)

You generalise in the worst possible way. You lump us all, "this is the Nick Spacetree", well that's a joke. Nobody said don't smoke DMT, plants are more important than humans, hell if you want to hear it: SMOKE ALL THE DMT YOU WANT. SMOKE IT ALL. We just want the harvest to be sustainable and ethical.

You claim the DMT market isn't huge, well...fuck this twofaced statement just makes me shudder. It's certainly huge enough to support some..

Edited March 11, 2008 by Sina

[folias]

so the rumors r true? u r completely nuts?

I am completely nuts and one of the sanest person you will ever meet!

i just think its kinda crazy to believe that dmt is gonna solve all mankinds problems?

I never said that... I don't think that at all.

I said, the experience of this reference point, of another reality, that taste of 'spirit', can really transform one's relationship to life in an incredible way.

i mean u dont have to smoke dmt to have a spiritual experience right, to instigate change within urself?

yeah, but a lot of people need a big catalyst... consider what lsd did in the 60's... if you read "dmt: the spirit molecule", strassman tells of almost ALL of the buddists he met in monestaries and so on, to have their spiritual journey catalysed by LSD.

We just want the harvest to be sustainable and ethical.

Ethical is certainly subjective. I think that true "on graph paper" sustainability is something to work towards... there are many issues preventing it, such as the illegality of the substance in question.

People don't seem to believe me, when I say, there is more than enough acacia tryptamines in nature already, a helluva lot, more than anyone knows.

Everyone here seems to have this idea that it is a rare resource... it isn't.

Far from it. But that appears to be the propaganda of those who have an agenda.

People want to see an issue here I think because it is such a heated topic and a lot of people are willing to remain on the armchair - which is largely a theoretical viewpoint.

My basic stance, chopping down trees, that are old/definately on their way out/already fallen over... that is as ethical and sustainable as it gets. Otherwise the trees just fall over and die and nobody gets the tryptamines!

What is the big deal here really?

That me and others are communicating about what we believe are the best ways to go about this... is enough I think! Hopefully, we can give guidance to people who are a bit silly, don't really know.

(I recently heard of a fellow who took a whole 3 year old obtusifolia, and got only 400mg from all the plant matter)

Remember, this thread was started by someone who was trying to "ethical" and "sustainable", but taking a little bit of bark from a lot of trees, and then ended up killing them all. They would have been better off just choosing the right tree and cutting it down.

This is how acacia tryptamines are generated in any quantity beyond tiny amounts - FACT. That is not a justification.

Because you can't really take branches (and the material up higher is weaker too), phyllodes give you gooey, very weak material and the only other option is to grow your own trees... and I know people who have done that... but the material just didn't HAVE IT.

If you do this right, it is done right and with good intention and respect.

(and this begs the question, what pro-activity have YOU participated in, exactly?)

I am pro-active... unlike most everyone else out there who is doing anything slightly illegal related to DMT, I take time to write on web forums, I share the understanding and knowledge I have come into, I collect seeds and distribute them (I am not good at growing trees) and do ayahuasca groups where I don't charge money and heaps of other things it would behoove me to be discrete about!

Julian.

[folias]

alot of people that have smoked dmt do not like it (myself included) all i, and others i have spoken with can convey is a state of horror and insanity?

I have only had one "bad" experience giving smoked DMT to someone out of hundreds... it was with a asian man called "bambi" 9 years ago... he said, "too much! too much! make it stop!".

The rest are mostly glowing and mystical. "life changing" is the word I hear most often.

A lot of it has to do with mindset and physical setting... the person giving it to you and how prepared you are. When it all comes together, it all comes together very well.

Once I was in the blue mountains... at the three sisters, looking at the trees with a friend of mine... an american man asked, "are you a botanist?" and I said I was an ethnobotanist.

he said, "no kidding" and he was interested in ethnobotany, having spent years with native tribes in the amazon... and he talked about his experience with the tryptamine snuffs there.

We gave him a big hit of DMT... inside this hidden cave in one of the sisters. Later he said it was awesome and indescribable for him... when it came down, he saw an old aboriginal man sitting in the rocks looking at him - clear as day.

He said he had been wandering around today and had been asking god for some new insight, direction... and he got it. He said this way was much better than the snuffs they shoot into your nose... much less painful and more effective!

We spent the day with him walking around looking at the obtusifolias around Blackheath. He was very happy, invigorated and grateful. So were we.

Julian.

[Undergrounder]

I have only had one "bad" experience giving smoked DMT to someone out of hundreds... it was with a asian man called "bambi" 9 years ago... he said, "too much! too much! make it stop!".

The rest are mostly glowing and mystical. "life changing" is the word I hear most often.

A lot of it has to do with mindset and physical setting... the person giving it to you and how prepared you are. When it all comes together, it all comes together very well.

Once I was in the blue mountains... at the three sisters, looking at the trees with a friend of mine... an american man asked, "are you a botanist?" and I said I was an ethnobotanist.

he said, "no kidding" and he was interested in ethnobotany, having spent years with native tribes in the amazon... and he talked about his experience with the tryptamine snuffs there.

We gave him a big hit of DMT... inside this hidden cave in one of the sisters. Later he said it was awesome and indescribable for him... when it came down, he saw an old aboriginal man sitting in the rocks looking at him - clear as day.

He said he had been wandering around today and had been asking god for some new insight, direction... and he got it. He said this way was much better than the snuffs they shoot into your nose... much less painful and more effective!

We spent the day with him walking around looking at the obtusifolias around Blackheath. He was very happy, invigorated and grateful. So were we.

Julian.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Undergrounder

[folias]

dude, obtusifolia locations are readily available on plant database web sites!

everywhere in the blue mountains they grow!

[folias]

now some more about these money grubbing evil tryptamine gatherers... surely they must be on such a low plane That Heavenly distances must be from me and they... I have only ever met one who would fit this bill... not from this land, and the poor guy... I think he really went through it for many months after his low knieving ways were exposed from being around lofty beings such as Natasha and I! :-)

And also, here is another hint of these dastardly types of people Torsten seems to know...a friend many years back passed onto NIck Spacetree knew someone who was fantasising about breaking my fingers... then apparently it progressed into cutting them off and then finally fantasing about killing me.

However, that was some years ago now... energies were much heavier then... maybe a bit more has seen the light of truth and circumstance since then.

But sina, let them see profits if that is what "they" want. (we are of course assuming "they" exist) I am sure it just won't work out for them at all and they will become mad miserable wrecks or something to that effect... as torsten has stated... few are left standing!

I sincerely feel that anyone who can manufacture dmt in any quantity, and get it out there is a fucking legend. And so how we reward them with greater values than money? The only people I associate with AT ALL are people who see this is so far beyond money it is beyond a joke.

Ultimately, all are conduits..even the beyond suss....but let the pure of heart see prosperity and allow them that. to the degee that they can manifest and bring that in... i.e. lets just focus on the positive here guys... okay, who wants to...ummmm....hug a tree!

I'd certainly like to see a lot of people I know abudant from this work... but most would not, and cannot take it on, a lot of it may to be to do with stigma attached, which is all in people's heads I feel.

Nature is rich and abundant and we all live on the fruits of its harvest.

If we can feedback the energy "taken" and transform it into something else of MUCH MORE value.... then it considered a job very well done by gaia.

There are MANY fruits here in this country which are ripe... which need harvesting. but not that many people really up for it seems.

In europe at least.... largely the demand is not even being met for this stuff and prices are STILL EXTREMELY high for good quality acacia DMT. It's pretty rare stuff...

acacia dmt is known to be very magical... it is very different to mimosa hostilis. people who know their stuff know the acacia is the real deal and the mimosa is often just stock or standard natural dmt... it is NOWHERE NEAR AS GOOD OR POWERFUL!

Are we in australia, stupid, mean or do we just hate money too much?

a combination of factors perhaps?

or maybe we care TOO much for our holy trees to let their fruits them into the unworhty hands of those of the very old countrys!

time to release some judgements?

or are we too much self rioughtsly hippies saying that you "you will just eat up this magic, you big bad banking system!" and leave none for us!

at least this is one thing in which we are keeping the best for ourselves sometimes it seems....!

Really, that there is not more DMT out of australia, I think has a lot of this has to do with psycholo

gical impediments I believe... I can help anyone unlock their guilt out of harvesting and making big bucks feel free to make many big paypal donations my way:

[email protected]

thanks.... with all your funds I will be very happy indeed.....hmmmm......funds.

Maybe I'll even buy some land and plant some trees! yay!

Julian.

[apothecary]

Firstly, I have nothing against "DMT dealers", people usually do what they can to survive. I wish they would factor in the ethics of the compounds sourced, and usually/always they don't. They don't care if the bark was scraped from a specimen tree in the botanical gardens, or from ringbarked trees, or any other scenario like that.

or maybe we care TOO much for our holy trees to let their fruits them into the unworhty hands of those of the very old countrys!

Second, I'd like to raise this simple point: In many of the "older" countries (US and EU incl), the availability of plant sources right from the Amazon is high, straight from the internet to your doorstep. The majority of people using these sources aren't fostering any relationship with a plant, or even have the conception of what it would be like to have their online sources for cheap and massively available DMT sources illegal just as we have no conception of any such sources (you don't see herbalistics selling 1kg lots of powdered obtus bark now do you) existing within Australia. Have you even seen an overseas online ethnobotany store that sells plants? Seeds maybe, but 90% of the time they are just reselling those.

So maybe you're correct, in that those who are in the position to do such exporting value the relationship of growing the plants as holy, we have nothing against exporting our DMT but feel that the fostering of such a relationship is nescessary? And it's happening in this regard, you can see in the dedicated they are growing the plants out even though they arew well connected enough to simply ask for some goo from their friends in Oz.

If we can feedback the energy "taken" and transform it into something else of MUCH MORE value.... then it considered a job very well done by gaia.

What I'm saying is why can't we take some energy that doesn't kill a tree part of a complex ecosystem, at least until there ARE sustainable areas of harvestable Acacias and an ingrained enough ethic that people don't end up splaying trees and claiming it for the good of humanity.

The fact is, there is no NEED to harvest targeted Acacia specifically, you might be correct in saying that people en masse NEED DMT, fair enough, but that need for DMT can be satisfied by sustainable harvesting (acuminata/floribunda etc) or using other plant sources or SOME FUCKING PATIENCE.

I'll say it all once more for clarity: The perceived need for DMT on a personal or people scale does not equate to a NEED to kill Acacia obtusifolia or phlebophylla. I don't think I'm better than anyone else who thinks the two equate, I want to show them they need to rethink their attitudes, and yes, I will get angry if you ignore that!

As it stands, the only way you can pick live obtus or phleb of any size (unless it's a weed) as a target is if your research was rudimentary level. To those who have been informed that they need to look deeper into the situation and re-evaluate, but refuse to because they feel they DESERVE to chop down a tree or trees just because they drove for X hours, well what does that suggest to you?

[folias]

Sina,

The thing about europe and the u.s. is that actually fostering a relationship with plants is much more different there... it is much harder for people to do that there... they are generally more divorced from nature than we are....

So when we are talking about DMT... we are talking about an experience or something bigger than that. It is then a commodity divorced from the plant... but I cannot see then that is necessary a bad thing.

The moderators on ayahuasca.com just closed the trade winds forum... because they think commodification of the vine is an evil thing...

However, people in europe and america can only buy ayahuasca vine as a commodity... it is rarely possible for them to grow it... to me, it is the value of the experience and connection that people have... I think that to some degree that how the process occurs can avail one to deeper levels of connection... i.e. even 100 year old taken capriciously from the amazon with those with only money on their mind is not always going to be radically different to the vine that is "ethically" harvested and grown.

I've been out with people harvesting and other natives collective vine and other plants from the amazon... and they don't mess around with mantras and feel good vibes, they just cut down and take what they need. Sure, there is lot available to them often...

I think the plants are forgiving and understand, and do work regardless. I do feel they work better when a current of understanding, empathy and concern is present... often much better.

It is like the difference between a brew where the shaman grows the plant, connects with it and can call in its nature... then when it is just chucked in the pot from an online company from some dudes who ripped the plant out of the ground, maybe without any understanding of the true nature of the vine or what it means apart from what it is worth money.

But like I said, the latter will still work.... but there is a difference.

The fact is, there is no NEED to harvest targeted Acacia specifically, you might be correct in saying that people en masse NEED DMT, fair enough, but that need for DMT can be satisfied by sustainable harvesting (acuminata/floribunda etc) or using other plant sources or SOME FUCKING PATIENCE.

Yeah, i basically agree with you on this point.

In my opinion, phlebophylla is totally off limits for now and like I keep saying, obtusifolia is very common and prevalent... I don't know why people consider it a rare resource. Of course, acuminata and floribunda are much more prevalent... I have been told the quality of DMT from floribunda is just not as good as from other trees - however. Acuminata I am told is excellent however!

I think careless and silly people will not be able to keep up any successful mission and will end up only hurting themselves, and any damage to the environment therefore is not likely to be too sustained with such folks.

In my experience, the trees only reveal themselves to you gradually too...

Julian.

[Coschi]

Julian, I hate to say I think you're wasting your time

I hear every bit of what you're saying and i'm 100% with you. You're a good person with good intentions and just reading what you write shows you're personality to be honest and respectful. Kudos to you. But some of these people will just never fucking get it, they'll continue to sit on their imaginary high horse and tell you what you're doing is wrong and how much of an idiot you are while they are mere passivists who simple don't know shit.

You'll open up and be honest about what you do, and in return you have to put up with one liner bullshit like "folias ... why does everything you write sound like a justification?"

Firstly, I have nothing against "DMT dealers", people usually do what they can to survive. I wish they would factor in the ethics of the compounds sourced, and usually/always they don't. They don't care if the bark was scraped from a specimen tree in the botanical gardens, or from ringbarked trees, or any other scenario like that.

You're kidding right?

please tell me you're kidding..

I devote my life to this, I want everyone to see just as i did, i will do as much as I can to ensure i can show the right people, i will never charge, i will never expect anything in return. I think you know this is my approach, i am honest and respectful and i do this because i know the energy in nature wants us to meet it so openly.

this is my approach and you say to me "Those photos make me want to skin you from the waist down, wait till you die and then harvest all the good shit out of your body"

but you have nothing against dealers hey..

your the biggest butthole i've ever come across, ever

[apothecary]

Err. You're not a DMT dealer then are you? When I mentioned that I was referring to people who buy in bulk for the purposes of reselling, TO SURVIVE. Same as people who sell cannabis or heroin or anything. These people aren't involved in the actual harvest or production and are relevant to a mentioned point of conversation, NOT YOU.

If you were honest you would've included the photos of your own raped trees in the original post of this thread (you know, the one where you rip on people for raping trees) and if you were respectful you certainly wouldn't have splayed trees in the way you did.

[Coschi]

No i'm not a dealer

man.. dmt dealers.. buying in bulk.. where the fuck do you think the spice came from?

I have never heard of a dmt dealer in my life, ever.. but even so, lets say they exist.. what, buy maybe an ounce of dmt? you think it could be synthetic? I don't.. so it's bad for the guy extracting ounces of dmt from plant material, but ok for the dealer who buys in bulk? Demand -> supply, cause and effect yeah..?

I guess that's like saying it's ok to order MHRB from the net and extract your dmt.. Sure, keep your hands clean. Do you think they're ethically harvesting mimosas to get all that root bark they're selling? I don't..

Did you miss me repeatedly saying that yes, at one point, some long fucking time ago I did things a little differently, a little worse. I've learnt some things.. remember? Stop bringing up old shit

[apothecary]

Err, MHRB is sustainably harvested, 2/3 of the rootmass is removed and the plant is replanted into the ground.

Nevermind. I'm gonna stop posting in this thread again.

Edited March 16, 2008 by Sina

[gerbil]

Coschi this isn't meant to be a dig at you or meant in any negative way towards you, I disagree strongly with a lot in this thread but negativity towards others won't get anyone anywhere; I can't understand your logic in that 'But some of these people will just never fucking get it', yet you admit you were wrong in the way you approached the harvest of this species in the past.

What makes you so positive that in this short period since that past time you have come to a complete and or even an adequate understanding of the ecology of these plants and the way in which they can be harvested in relation to minimal impact and future survival and quality of the species populations? It seems you've moved from something you agree you weren't proud of and (guessing at the time were willing to defend like you are now) to a new standpoint of something that you will defend fiercely.

[Coschi]

I'm not saying I know everything by any means, about ecology or other, but can you tell me honestly that by my actions of cutting down four large trees from a well populated area that I am really causing even a measurable impact? The four trees used will last at least a year, quite likely two

When i say that people here don't fucking get it, I say that in response to the responses to some of my and Julian's and other posts. The responses that get to me are simple little digs and back and forth rubbish that could be avoided if the person forget their aim to find fault in the post and bag the writer and actually just listen.

Indeed I was wrong in the past, and impatience probably being the biggest problem of mine. Thankfully there are fair discussions which have shown me otherwise. In fact, that was why I started this thread in the first place; i'd seen a big mistake someone had done and I wanted to point it out. Not to flame them or say what an ass they were, but to just point out that there are better ways to do things, and in turn I get flammed from all angles simply because I admit to something. Forget the fact that i was actually trying to prevent further negative action, clearly some people are just more concerned with pointing out peoples faults and trying to make others look bad.

I totally agree with the anti-negativity thingy, but I suck and sometimes can't help but get a little too hot headed. I'll try and keep it under control a little better, but sometimes the shit i see people come up with here...

[incognito]

okay who wants odds on who gets busted for dmt production first? im giving coshi 10-1.

[XipeTotec]

okay who wants odds on who gets busted for dmt production first? im giving coshi 10-1.

lol

[reshroomED]

Indeed I was wrong in the past, and impatience probably being the biggest problem of mine. Thankfully there are fair discussions which have shown me otherwise. In fact, that was why I started this thread in the first place; i'd seen a big mistake someone had done and I wanted to point it out. Not to flame them or say what an ass they were, but to just point out that there are better ways to do things, and in turn I get flammed from all angles simply because I admit to something. Forget the fact that i was just point out that there are better ways to do things, clearly some people are just more concerned with pointing out peoples faults and trying to make others look bad.

It's been repeatedly pointed out to you that it's relatively easy to have zero impact on nature in this regard.

This is to "just (to) point out that there are better ways to do things".

For some reason you refuse to listen, and this is where things heat up.

Of course killing four trees every two years will have little impact (unless we all did so), but killing no trees will have no impact (which we all could do).

Why kill unnecessarily?

ed

[Coschi]

I agree with you Ed, but for most people who live in/near the city it's far from practical to travel 7 hours (return from Melbourne) on the odd chance that there will be fallen material. As you agree that removing a few trees is doing little harm, so given the situation I choose to do the latter. I do spread seed amongst people every chance I get in an attempt to negate my effect on the ecosystem

If i lived in an area surrounded by active acacias and had the time to go for a wonder every now and then of course I would, but that's just not the case

[incognito]

Err, MHRB is sustainably harvested, 2/3 of the rootmass is removed and the plant is replanted into the ground.

are u serious? that mustbe a MASSIVE job. im imagining they must be harvested whilst still fairly young? mimosa turn into pretty decent sized trees! im sure not all hostillis are sustainably harvested.

this threads never gonna die.

lets all just agree that they should be harvested sustainably and ethically yeah?

okay? *Group hug* well coshi u and sina can hold hands at least!

[t st tantra]

a mimosa borealis growing locally is pruned all over every year,keeping it at the same size.

the root is about 2/3 bark and 1/3 core.

seedlings pulled from the ground had a success rate about 60% when replanted.

2/3 root mass removed seems a bit much but i assume they have experience in what they are doing.

t s t .

[Torsten]

the vast majority of MHRB is now farmed. Small amounts are still wild harvested and it's anyone guess how sustainably this is done. The farmed material is produced by digging up 1/3rd of the root. The plant is nt actually removed from the ground and hence is not 'replanted' as such. They just dig up one side of it, harvest the roots, prune the tops accordingly and backfill with soil. The reason this is done is because MHRB from young trees is useless, however even 1 year old growth from a mature tree is good quality. So, rather than gettign 100% of the root every 5 years they wait 5 years just once and then harvest 30% every year. I am sure the plant can sustain harvests of more than 30%, so it's quite possible some producers harvest up to 2/3rds.

Funny how Brazilians can get their shit together and do this sustainably, but aussies can't.......