Abuse Of Power In Ceremonies That Use Psychoactive Substances

[mushfun]

^

Too good

[Change]

It would be good if answering my questions was possible

Edited October 31, 2015 by Change

[ThunderIdeal]

shaman is just a word. i liked mr wormwoods "bolt from the blue" post. it was an excellent post IMHO, but he does make reference to a certain definition of what a shaman is and while in the context of his post it's quite clear what he means, there is no universal definition of the word so i don't know if anyone can answer your question change.

the word comes from siberia yet is almost always applied to south americans nowadays, for obvious reasons.

tribal mystics predate the very concept of $500 so it's arguable if such thing as a "true shaman" can even coexist with modern concepts.

edit: FWIW i've been surprised and confused by the direction this thread took. i think this is an opportunity to increase awareness. the article was written with commendable sensitivity and so far our discussion has been blunt and combative.

Edited October 31, 2015 by ThunderIdeal

[2XB]

Maybe its what is done with the 500 that would set the shaman apart from a fraud

[ThunderIdeal]

maybe a practitioners place on the continuum from healer to fraudster is indeterminable.

[Change]

500 brews for healing makes healing exclusively accessible to the rich, how very shamanistic, its a shame they wont give me a discount for having a health care card.

A real shaman would be volunteering at the hospital healing the terminally ill, but i guess its not good for your sharman Rep if your terminally ill patients keep dying.

[2XB]

Lol I thought we were discussing south American retreats

[Change]

.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Change

[ThunderIdeal]

remember in about the fifth post it was suggested that you articulate your posts better. i think that's a good idea if you're going to continue being antagonistic to avoid needless ruffled feathers, back-and-forths, etc. i suggest we start by foregoing the word shaman and any other ripe examples of private language.

[Change]

.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Change

[simhanada]

I think it is a shame that an article that discusses so many issues and presents an articulate and nuanced examination of not only some troubling circumstances but also potential solutions has resulted in a thread with very little nuance or examination.

Is that all you think it really boils down to Change, that this is all just about people taking advantage of each other? Its hard to understand what your points are as their is very little context when you throw up your thought bubbles.

[ace1928]

I think it's only about taking advantage of people yes.
I haven't seen many people "healed" from these places.
What kind of discussion would you like? Yes I will be blunt about it. Yes I will be dismissive that "they aren't real shamans" and yes I will be combative when people are defending a practice that I find utterly offensive.
And that practice is taking money from people going through a rough patch. Also known as exploiting vulnerable individuals. I don't care who does that or when they do it or why they do it or how misunderstood they may be. It's not cool.

[simhanada]

Thats a bit sad then. I haven't met many people that have taken ayahuasca but I have read and listened to a lot of people discussing their experiences and it seem many are getting some benefit from their experiences. Of course, some are not.

Do you have a standard measurement as to how fucked up you considered people to be before and post experience that makes you consider they've had no benefit whatsoever?

You say you haven't seen many people you considered "healed" which implies you've seen some that have?

I don't mind bluntness. I was more feeling that Changes posts were vague and random and little more than finger diarrhoea spread through the posts. The fact some of the posts have now been deleted bears out that they contributed little.

I think there is wide scope for people deluding themselves and other people, in many ways. But then practically, I question what people want to get out of these experiences and are they getting them? I wonder, who is getting hurt and who is getting helped? There's no doubt people will look for a way out of shitty situations whether its through western medicine, psychology, psychiatry, spiritualism, religion, psychedelics, drugs. For some, some things work, for others it works but they become insufferable assholes, for others it doesn't work and still others just find more harm and even death.

Some retreat centres are going to have more ethics around who they treat and why, some in it for the money and some not. I think its a shame to see things so black and white. Its kind of like people that have such an intense hatred of police and can't see beyond that to the people behind the uniform and recognise some are cunts and some aren't.

question: who in your opinion are the real shamans? You're statement implies you think there are some out there but these people are not. Is there a point when you see that a shaman has stopped being a shaman because they act in a certain way? Do people going to these places have some responsibility, no matter how fucked up their life is for their own actions or is it all the fault of the system in place, or something else?

[mysubtleascention]

pregnant -

with the new

.. magic

day after pill !

[mushfun]

^

What is this sorcery?

[ace1928]

Thats a bit sad then. I haven't met many people that have taken ayahuasca but I have read and listened to a lot of people discussing their experiences and it seem many are getting some benefit from their experiences. Of course, some are not.

Do you have a standard measurement as to how fucked up you considered people to be before and post experience that makes you consider they've had no benefit whatsoever?

You say you haven't seen many people you considered "healed" which implies you've seen some that have?

I don't mind bluntness. I was more feeling that Changes posts were vague and random and little more than finger diarrhoea spread through the posts. The fact some of the posts have now been deleted bears out that they contributed little.

I think there is wide scope for people deluding themselves and other people, in many ways. But then practically, I question what people want to get out of these experiences and are they getting them? I wonder, who is getting hurt and who is getting helped? There's no doubt people will look for a way out of shitty situations whether its through western medicine, psychology, psychiatry, spiritualism, religion, psychedelics, drugs. For some, some things work, for others it works but they become insufferable assholes, for others it doesn't work and still others just find more harm and even death.

Some retreat centres are going to have more ethics around who they treat and why, some in it for the money and some not. I think its a shame to see things so black and white. Its kind of like people that have such an intense hatred of police and can't see beyond that to the people behind the uniform and recognise some are cunts and some aren't.

question: who in your opinion are the real shamans? You're statement implies you think there are some out there but these people are not. Is there a point when you see that a shaman has stopped being a shaman because they act in a certain way? Do people going to these places have some responsibility, no matter how fucked up their life is for their own actions or is it all the fault of the system in place, or something else?

I like this post

I have honestly known one guy who got a lot of a brewing experience. I've met about 10 people who have gone into it hoping for the best and come away with a very warped view on things and ended up massively damaging their own lives and those around them afterwards. I would not say they are better off now than before.

Shamans are spiritual leaders for a group of people as far as I see. And there are tribes in existence still with shamans that help lead and guide them. Some of their guidance is really far off and even dangerous at times though and I see that as being a big reason it is not as prominent today. I don't know if my "real" shamans are what you would call "real" shamans.

I believe everyone has got some responsibility for their actions but there is most definitely a huge portion of everyone's lives that are way beyond their own control. Some people get the short stick and genuinely do have a shitty time in life. I could understand why those people may feel as though the world is against them and turn towards spirituality, science, arts, music or even shamans to help them through or show them a way. Part of that is because of many of the systems in place in life, Part of that is just the struggle for existence. I don't think that many of these extreme psychadelic experiences are useful for people in a truly bad place. Different story for other substances used in the right settings and under the guidance of the correct people.

Would you call a physician trained in administering psychopharmaceuticals in a clinical setting to help patients through psychological trauma a shaman? Because such people do incredible work and many substances are truly powerful. Some are just too extreme for a person in a fragile or vulnerable situation. And a proper shaman should be responsible enough to know this and not just cash in on peoples desperation.

[Yeti101]

For what it is worth, I feel I should apologise in general for lowering the tone of the discussion, and apologise in particular to ghostly for my immoderate, hasty and hostile response to one of his posts.

All that said, I still feel all of us need to properly unpack our statements and be clear and precise with what we are saying.

When I read: "What we can see is that western ignorance is mostly to blame. along with cultural clashes. full stop.", I fixated on the word 'blame'. To me, use of 'blame' implies moral/ethical responsibility - for example, if ghostly was pissed with me, then I would be to blame for that. So when I put this together with the article in the first post, I jumped to the conclusion that there was an implication that the victims of this sexual abuse were to blame due to their ignorance of the substance, the people running the ceremonies, and broader cultural context in which all of this is situated. Such ignorance could well be part of the cause of such incidents - but that is very, very different from saying that that it is to blame for such things. For example, my decision to leave the house would be a causal factor in me being mugged in the park, but that does not mean I would be morally to blame for my misfortune.

Mixing up the ideas of cause and blame is a key move in victim-blaming, especially where sexual assault and violence against women is concerned - we've all heard this before: "She shouldn't have been walking in that area by herself/wearing that/acting that way" etc. I have a firm belief that a woman (or man, because men are also sexually assaulted) should be able to walk wherever they like, wearing whatever they like, without someone trying to rape them. Similarly, I think (all other questions aside) that everyone should be able to choose to participate in these ceremonies and works without sexual contact that they did not, or could not, consent to. (If people think that makes me some sort of cultural imperialist, then I can live with that.)

So instead of being deliberately inflammatory, I should have just said: "ghostly, maybe you should replace 'to blame' with 'the cause', because that's a better way to get your point across".

[mysubtleascention]

patiently -

trick

.. or treat

polyamory !

[ghosty]

"the 'Shamans' being referred to in the article posted, by practicing and applying their 'arts' to people who come from outside their immediate indigenous community, be they Westerner, or Eastern, or whoever, are by definition not Shamans at all. I've seen such people referred to as Neo-Shamans, but that is too kind a nomenclature in my opinion, opportunists is a better way of putting it, psychedelic entrepreneurs, might be a nicer take (particularly as i understand that they take monetary payments for their services in, which no true Shaman ever would) . At any rate, they are not Shamans.

that was true yes. BUT, consider this. Money is, and will always be a major factor in the evolution of a person, culture, society, community and country. They, like anyone, would accept money if they felt it could help them to heal more people. improve their ability to do their work. The fact that many will work with gringo's and accept their money is not that "they are not shamans" but that, they, as shamans are evolving. as are their communities. If YOU were a healer, would you not wish to heal more people?

Edited November 4, 2015 by ghosty

[Pat Uri]

P's Dog here - I LOVE you all for this forum thread - yep! this has got closer, deeper through the skin of the matter than ever before in human terms!

We will never actually speak and make in words what is truly a spiritual abstraction:- esteemed Elder Sartre attempted by saying that the meaning of life was to experience its phenomena and then to actualise it by asking "what is this, my existence?". The 'meaning of life' is that itself - the condition where you can ask that question.

Enough of that - let's get solid, for a little while, at this point. I have read through and LOVE you all - be it known that mathematically we understand now that "bounded chaotic intermixing causes strange stability". Bless you all for your freedom speaking and bless our SAB forum here for being the bounded set of our individual subset chaos.

Yeah it is heavy reading - like analysing the scintillation events of a mass of heavy nuclear isotope during critical event - but dear God it is wonderful - my absolute privilege to witness, if it doesn't annihilate me for observing.

Really what other forum has this? None!

But being PhaemonsDog I must chuck in the mathematical chaotic "strange attractor" - the Palladium into the core - here goes:-

The Three Commandments of Shamanism:-

- 1. Do not steal;

- 2. Do not tell lies;

- 3. Do not be lazy.

As you can see it is largely an amoral Religion - there is no right or wrong, legal or illegal, good or bad. No severe restrictions on "murder", "adultery", "rape" and "pillage" per se. or "breach of contract".

Can you "trust" them...ummmm....not for me to answer - ask them.

Sozz - I am taking a lot of liberty here - does one only not only hurt the ones you love?

Love and Peace. P'sDog - please keep up the debate.

[Pat Uri]

PhaemonsDog again - should mention that groups like Santo Daime are devoted to moral practises. So the good guys are out there.

The Original American Native People didn't even have a word for "sin" until the Christian missionaries introduced the concept - you can't have "redemption" without a sense of "sin" it seems. For them things like torturing an enemy, "headhunting" etc. was quite honourable.

So a lot of their original Gods seemed to be into a lot of "ungodly" habits and had all the vices of humans too. Even the Creator Father would occasionally make deformed babies when he was on the piss - so deformed people were especially sacred. Seems that the Perfect get it wrong occasionally too and the Great Father must be a little partial to wine. Still is according to the Catholics.

Having Gods that understood sin is probably why those old religions never vanished. You can hardly go to your Catholic Priest for advice after getting your girlfriend pregnant...that is when you consult the Obeah of your ancestors.

Religion is too heavy a trip - I'll stick to the simpler ones of Nature for me. Regards. P'sDog.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Pat Uri

[ghosty]

psst, Pat, You're smarts are showing . again..

[courage]

This wouldn't be the first time I've personally heard of such 'spiritual abuse'. Some are aware of what they are doing whilst others have been sucked in and manipulated to believing what they are doing is right by other forces. I agree that people naively flock towards this kind of abuse in an attempt for healing in a distorted and traumatised world, I do however feel this whole concept is a microcosm of a larger problem.

To me the definition of the word shaman has changed with the changing of the times. While I don't know enough about indigenous cultures and what still remains to comment, my experience has been the framework that existed for genuine healing to occur has been all but destroyed. I was taught and feel it's important to recognise with the right intent we can create our own framework by going inwards and with the help of true forces create something entirely new to this realm. Our society has created such a reliance on itself that people have forgotten this very notion.

Following what I have been taught again, is that through a process that has only recently become available, being a shaman can mean becoming more deeply imbedded in the problems we face as a collective and making amends to the so many wrongs we have faced. So there is a focus on a global and even multi-dimensional.

Edited November 7, 2015 by courageoftheweak

[Zen Peddler]

years ago (somewhere near 2002) I saw a dude suddenly basically instigate sexual activity with a girl whose boyfriend was also present but tripping absolute balls and unable to express his feelings about the advances. Eight of us all sat in a circle wondering how the hell we deal with this sudden surprise development while all cresting on the rise of an old mate called getafix. Ouch!!!

Edited November 7, 2015 by Zen Peddler