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darkhorse

Khat dosages

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How many leaves do most find accomodating as I seem to find no matter how much I chew I obtain no real effects???

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Variety, age & qrowing conditions might help.

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is it possible you haven't noticed the effects?

as for at the beginning, uppers never seemed to do much for me either, if one is used to the effects of say cannabis, one doesn't find much has changed after using uppers. all it does is, to make you a bit more talkative, energetic and active, thats all. there are other signs aswell like improofed mood and concentration, but none of them are giving you a strong sence of altered realety.

i have noticed a lot of fluctuation in the strengh of the leaves, according to the weather, the climat and the season.

sometimes using just a few leaves seem to give one "umpf", whilst another time a lot more doesn't seem to do much at all, but for me that's exactly the same as it happens with my coffee.

maybe you are a hardhead and would need more than others to get the same result, however my guess is that the plant you use as a source is for various reasons not producing many actives. another thing to look into is your set and setting, as i think it works far better if you consume qat in a social situation, the more exciting and active the social event, the better.

a standard dose, is a handfull of leaves and tips.

i like how water tastes soooo sweet after chewing qat.

Edited by planthelper
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i have heard that 2-3 well chewed mouthfuls should produce effects. but don't expect to be racing. I hear it is more of a mild shift in consiousness (some may disagree) with some elevation in energy and perhaps curiosity

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Yeah I would describe it as more of a mood enhancer than anything else, its a soft ride up which then fades away almost unnoticed.

I find I can easily eat full and hearty meals after chewing and sleep comes easily

Don't expect a rush or any euphoria or even a rise in heartbeat, just a pleasant lift in spirits.

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fill both ur cheeks full of leaves till u cant fit any more in, and chew a little, let the juices absorb into ur mouth. dont swallow the leaves. the guys that chew this for their optimum effects chew SHITLOADS. fill up a shopping bag full of leaves and keep chewing!!!!

i love the effects of khat, of which id compare to a strong cuppa (thats two cheekfulls for me)

and it has a great synergy with ganja.

I plan on doing a whole lot of chewing when i finally buy my land and set stuff up,

it is really really beneficial for manual labor, it seems to render u immune to the heat and strenuous tasks, i want to make a red khat hedge!!!

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naja naja linked me to a paper on qat recently, in which I read 6g per kg of bodyweight. This seems reasonable.

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naja naja linked me to a paper on qat recently, in which I read 6g per kg of bodyweight. This seems reasonable.

shit... that means i need half a kilo?

has anyone tried making a tea out of it?

i read something about it on erowid...

also does it matter if you use younger or older leaves?

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holy moley thats a shit load. ive gotten weird unpleasant burning sensations in the head after chewing maybe a couple of dozen leaves of the narrow leaf variety. like my frontal lobe was really cooking. but then sometimes i can eat that same amount and not really feel much. higher potency in the morning i have heard..

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You need the nice soft tips of the twigs and just stuff as many as you can fit into the side of your cheek. Chew at a nice slow rate letting the juices remain in the mouth in between chews before swallowing.

At first i didn't notice much either but now i can recognise the effects. I often find myself more talkative, slightly contemplative and loss of fatigue with a slight sense of well being.

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in the older leaves there is only cathin (like ephedrine in its actions). the euphoric entactogenic stimulant cathinone is only in fresh two youngest leaves. they are plucked like tea to get chewed as fresh as possible. there is an enzymatic process in the plant which converts the cathinone to cathin after time, this could be only stopped by quickly grinding the fresh two youngest leaves of each twig and extract it with 98%- alcohol

i find the taste of the leaves delicate :-)

Edited by mindperformer
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You'll find http://www.drugs.com/npp/khat.html very useful. 400g chewed over 3hrs, maybe 4 cheekfulls, 2L of water, from a poptop bottle, peculated through the chewed mass over this time. Only remove pulp when it is tasteless, at least an hour.

Be amazed how the lump of chewed pulp expands at your feet like green polyurethane foam - did that really fit inside me?

(Helpful to play didjeridoo or tuba for cheek expansion) Do not attempt if you have "Chelsea Grin" - it'll split (Right Cutty Shanks?). Check with dentist you have enough tooth crown) Seek to transcend the nausea, bitterness, gag reflex - don't "get sick of climbing the mountain that you return". So climbers say "It's worth it when you get there!" but you'll endure an ordeal of physical discomfort to be amongst the few who made it. Then it becomes a matter of pride - well you got there the hard way why shouldn't everyone else.

Remember these people chew great salad bowls of the stuff as the only source of Vitamin C they have - more nutritional reasons, than abuse. Cartloads of tens of cubic metres of entire forests are brought in Friday nights and the gutters run green. Come morning the place looks like the aftermath of a fat cattle saleyard.

Tradition aside anyone who can find a quicker way to that 30mg of cathicone will be nominated for a Nobel Prize.

Meantime - it takes months to develop the technique. Stack your leaves in piles of ten. Roll these to a quid. Push the roll to the molars so the greatest amount of grinding area crushes. Natural mastication pushes the pulp to the cheek. Swallow the fresh juice. Sip water (head back) rinsing through the pulp swallowing the water but straining the solids - but only if the taste is unbearable. The technique is to get that juice down behind the back of the tongue away from the taste buds that perceive bitterness. Keep going with next, and the next, and the next....

Start with tender shoots to get the taste - then the tougher ones ain't that bad.

Once that cheek is uncomfortably full (100 leaves or so, an hour or so later), chew the pulp through thoroughly. perculating with water and use mastication to transfer it to the other cheek, squeezing and swallowing the liquid. Once that cheek is packed, chew another 100 sucking down that yummy juice over the hour and rinsing thoroughly.

Then the bring the two together when tastless to expel the mass like dung out of a camel.

Okay - that's the start. Time to keep going with more and more and more.

Remember - sugar is rare in their diet - and khat ain't that bitter. Wormwood is bitter! Chew that, and khat tastes like lollies. But if your anything of a herbist then Glycyrrhiza; Pimpinella; Illicum; or anyother mask will do. Chewing gum is for beginners and helps mop up the stray

fragments. Tobacco snuff is just dandy with it especially gardening.

First few times you just feel more agro, irritated and dysphoric - but eventually you get the hang of it. You won't appreciate it now - but wait until you're 60! The older you are - and more senile, I guess - the better it works!

I've a lot of experience controlling alkaloid contents of chewing tobacco, but khat's a real tricky one.

Hope that helps a bit my greenteethed friends.

Gidday for now - Pat Uri

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thats a nice writte up, but i want to add that, for most people it would be impossible to say how strong the material will be, so start with a very low dose, and macerate only very little, to make the uptake slow.

top notch leaves and tips, are many, many times stronger than average leaves and tips, and only very little is needed, unless your tolerance is high.

qat can raise your blood pressure to uncomfortable levels, so be warned.

good quality material, doesn't taste bitter either, it's rather a yummy taste.

some people don't drink, whilst chewing, when you wait, water will taste like heaven....

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50g of a certain hybrid seems to work well I have heard from my ethiopian friend. He also said he noticed a dramatic increase in alkaloids at the begining of flowering (This caused dramatic increase in BP to uncomfortable levels, too strong), then seems to have dropped a little, but still nice and strong as new spring growth has started. Over the last year, they have noticed that the alk level seems to change daily, 1 day it may be strong, the next it is weak. Taste a little first before harvest, too ensure alk levels are high enough for harvest, if not. wait until they are. Maturity increases strength it seems aswell, and one can see clearly why young plants are not regarded highly.

Caffine seems synergistic, but thats no surprice really given it's synergy with E ph edra species. Energy drinks can be a popular combo, the sugar helping mask the flavour.

Once in ground, they grow so quick, even if your renting, it is a viable option. As they can handle transplantation of large established plants well if done during winter, heavily pruned and watered well with seaweed to help shock recovery. From 5L pot to a 10ft monster in less than 2 years given good conditions.

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in the older leaves there is only cathin (like ephedrine in its actions). the euphoric entactogenic stimulant cathinone is only in fresh two youngest leaves. they are plucked like tea to get chewed as fresh as possible. there is an enzymatic process in the plant which converts the cathinone to cathin after time, this could be only stopped by quickly grinding the fresh two youngest leaves of each twig and extract it with 98%- alcohol

i find the taste of the leaves delicate :-)

I'd say they deff highest in two youngest, but the first 4-6 are all good if on fresh watery shoots and not tough and fibrous.

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of course there is a fluent passage in the plant, it depends on the gusto to take only the best or the middle-quality too. From older leaves it is possible to make tea (only Cathin and weaker), with lemon and honey very tasteful.

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Just chew it until you're satisfied. I have some rather large trees up at my parents house and I would chew 3-4 large quids (so maybe 60+ juvenile leaves) in a short time with no problems - harvested before sunrise.

I'm a little tolerant to stimulants though.

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whilst i have utmost respect for tradition, by all means try the traditional method. this is the safest way for the un-initiated. somebody mentioned saliva enzyme conversion....and that has me curious. most people cannot quid it and chew the traditional way, i certainly struggle...for me, im impatient and i tend to not like the feeling of leaves, drying and crumbling in my mouth, little bits getting stuck in my mouth and then spitting it out, not exactly my cup of tea. Onto cup of tea, its pretty hardcore to make a black khat tea. You are left with a litre of black, bitter....strange liquid. Good luck with that. On top of that you have to then in a un-socially acceptable couple of methods for pretty much most western society, you have the hit and miss......if khat will be "on" that day. I would say 9 times out of ten it wont be. and thats it in a nutshell, plus i would theorise that most new growers are expecting some miracle plant that will be like speed. Its complete bullshit, however .....there is a small chance, of positive effects on a lucky day. But once again as i think PH said, i once saw this teeny bopper ingest dexies at the pub. 2 hours later you couldnt shut the prick up, he had white spittle in the corner of his lips and his eyes were like a bug, everybody knew it.....he was fucked up, but he swore black and blue he got dud dexies and was straight. I suppose as was said newbs expect to feel a MJ or trippy feeling, but i suppose in large enough doses this may be possible, but that person is borderline skitzo and or delusional, which is different from simple MJ like "spinning out"

i would say, really from the bottom of my heart....your wasting your time with khat.

but on the flipside, dosage wise.....the absolute best feeling i ever had was off old/old leaves....lots, boiled. i have said simmer it before...but this was 20 years ago and i boiled them and the water was as black as space. 10 hours of good feelings and 73 off the stick in golf, i hit the ball well but i swear, i was in this magical zone....i gave a khat tea to this mate of mine, crap golfer and he played amazing. the only way i can explain it is that, ....i dunno, just a glowing white ball, that needs to be spanked. powers of concentration but then the ability to let go, not get fixated on repetitive mannerisms. It lets you switch off a few notches if need be. it gives you white energy, its a real type energy, not contrived like modern stims. Nothing fake about it at all, it allows you a certain spiritual freedom...if i must go down that path, as im not the spiritual type.

My second best was 10 small leaves, tiny medium red ones...nothing amazing just suprising given the tiny mass. I will second the high blood pressure thing. I suffer from moderate high bloods and i rarely have khat these days as i can feel my blood looking for a point to burst out somewhere in my body. Thats the cold hard facts with high blood pressure, basically your a timebomb...i dont really wanna die yet.

Finally, the best and only method i would ever use is fresh sliced salami sandwhich style sized, the freshest tips and stems soft as rolled up like a cigar with the khat filling, i swear the synergy between them is perfect, for me anyway. Salty and bitter, sweet and delicate....it is seriously a 5 star resturant starter, plus you can chew it all together and the leaves dissolve in the chewy meat in a great way, this can also be sucked in a quid like way to maximise mouth saliva mayby enzyme like traditional methode, but with a modern twist. Then i swallow, doesnt get more simple than that. That being said, what are the in the leaves. I personally believe nothing dangerous at all, i believe actually very healthy. Why?

Every single time, the next day i have felt revived, great. Every time i have had the most amazing shits. Perfect, smooth, A grade form and shape, colour perfect, pretty much a perfect banana, and it just slides out like a velvet sausage. I think once is a fluke but every time, come on......dont you think my body is telling me something. Shits are a key indicator of general and also immediate health.

Anyway thanks for reading that story, as with anything.....be safe first.

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Santiago - boiling khat [or even mildly heating it] will destroy all the cathinone immediately. That means what you experienced was a cathine high. That's quite curious because cathine is not very euphoric, ie there is not much of a dopamine component to the experience. Cathine is about as potent as pseudoephedrine and has similar effect. I've seen club kids in the 80's et quite high off pseudo, but really only because they couldn't get anything else.

Cathinone on the other hand is as potent as amphetamine and has a strong euphoric action. Individuals with weak dopamine responses often find cathinone boring though [they usually find cathine even more boring].

If peopel don't get a kick from khat then this is usually due to the khat being weak and that is usually either due to the age of the plant or the time between harvest and consumption. So far every person i have encountered who said that khat doesn't work just needed to be shown how to do it properly.

I agree with santiago about eating the leaves. spitting is disgusting and I have found them quite healthy.

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Respect to you all! This has been a fascinating meeting of minds and all comments above have impressed upon me the pharmokinetic "range" of dosage. In pharmacology "range" refers to how much you must vary the dose to elicit the same amount of physiological response in the same individual(s) but on different days.

(for simplicity I only mention "range" - the true "formula" has many other considerations: age, weight, gender, excretory function, etc)

The range of phenyl-isopropylamine racemate and it's subN-methyl racemate are huge - one of the biggest in fact - as is +adrenaline, +norepinephrine, -dopamine. Hence no surprise we see the same range of ten here with C.e.

Cathicone has only been labelled "an amphetamine" for legal convenience in banning it. Pharmaceutically "cathicone" is to "amphetamine" as "codeine" is to "morphine". Don't get hung-up on the "amphetamine"-like - merely a convenient structural chemistry term, with no actual meaning to its pharmaceutical action. Lawmakers who've banned it - don't know it and blanket banned it like Hitler did the Jews: he'd most likely never met one.

It is not a stimulant - get that out of your heads folk. I define stimulant as can keep you awake all night. Caffeine, ephedrine and any of the true pharmaceutical (methlyated)amphetamine, ie Deoxy-analouge neurotransmitters, will keep you awake - Benzedrine, Dexidrine, Deoxyfed, Pervitin - classically, and in more recent times - Duromine, Phentermine, Ritalin, amphetanil - have all the activity (even structure) but not prejudice.

(In fact the old phenyl-isopropylamine backbone is a bit old hat - anyways. Plenty of wholly new compounds, with none of that 2 dimensional backbone, that SAR up just like the "Lemon Lightning" itself! - but don't betray you any other way.)

Listen in all to the Amazing Mr T when HE says:-

Cathine is about as potent as pseudoephedrine and has similar effect. I've seen club kids in the 80's et quite high off pseudo, but really only because they couldn't get anything else.

Cathinone on the other hand is as potent as amphetamine and has a strong euphoric action. Individuals with weak dopamine responses often find cathinone boring though [they usually find cathine even more boring].

Here, in His great wisdom, He sets the benchmark as pseudoephedrine, for comparison. Respect to Him! He is correct and we learn much.

No amount of pseudoephedrine can keep me awake all night - as it's oxygen atoms are too close to the phenyl. No amount of khat can keep me awake all night - again, alpha-oxygen too electrophillic. They are not stimulants - for they can conversely cause sedation. Pseudoephedrine, competing for adrenaline - nor-pseudoephedrine, competing for nor-epinephrine.

Their methylated forms in Ma Huang, Donna Ana, etc. keep me awake.

Compare to "Jef" - a hideous Soviet street-poison akin to glue-sniffing, antifreeze drink and krokidile. Here vinegar/condy's crystals oxidize pseudoephedrine into methylcathicone/compared to reductive deoxygenation into speed:- WHATEVER- you've taken the electrophilic action out of the backbone. The "product" unreliable. Oh - methylcathicone IS a stimulant - of extreme range. 48hr insomnia. Heartrate >140. This IS NOT khat!

It is well established that the most potent (low ranged) mood elevators, MAOI, SSRI are LSD, psylocibin, DMT, mescaline, etc. (In fact Zoloft is just inhibited lysergide). Once the individual can recognise the affects of these, they show reverse immunity - i.e. they respond to fractions of a dose. They learn to "like a little, and love a lot". This is not the model of the catchall phrase "amphetamine-like" where medically variable range and ever growing tolerance and dependence is the norm.

I must humbly defer to forum - perhaps I overindulge or grow weak plants - but I hold fast to the extreme limit:-

Khat is the least of the stimulants - but the first of the Entheogens. You know when you've chewed enough shaded, sexual, well watered red shoot from deep rooted >5yr olds. You feel exalted - sacred - there!, at the peak! You need no more. Satiation achieved, elated, alive and full of God Most High. Allah u Akbar.

Unlike 'uppers' don't think banal thoughts. Khat stimulates and rewards spiritual rapture.

High as - you feel you'll happily repeat the experience. But next morning, with sore jaws, I think you don't want to spoil the memory.

After then...well it doesn't take much to restimulate those transcendental thoughts:- as our pure forum members say. Much more akin to 5HT long memory - than adrenaline lack-of-memory i.e. entheogen not stimulant.

It is unique amongst experiences. Once held, like the shaman say, "you have the spirit".

My Heartfelt Prayers for Your Long, Happy Lives - Dear People of Forum!

Your Good Mate, Pat Uri

(edited as per direction of Good mate Naja who spotted my "typo" omission! What a fine, sharp mind Naja has! wonder what the secret could be!!!!chew-chew-suck-suck!)

Edited by Pat Uri
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(Expecting this to get CENSORED out):- PS - prove my point that cathicone works on other receptors than amphetamine - try the two together! That is true agonistic synergy - Incredible! Watch out! This combo can set your heart "Black Betty" (not good) and get your nipples so hard they'll wear holes in your teeshirt.

Works best with racemate - hence the hypothesis! Bye - might see you out jogging at 3am!

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Not to say that the statement is incorrect, but your use of terminology seems unusual. Adrenaline is Epinephrine. And if cathinone is not a stimulant, please explain all the housework :P but on that note, some chemistry is more narcotic (ie narrow form). It seems feasable to conclude that some other unidentifyied active is also in some chemotypes, not simply cath ine, nor-eph edrine or cathi none. I think science needs some more exercise in this area. I feel the true nature of chemotype diversity is larger than one would realize.

Edited by naja naja
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Adrenaline is Epinephrine. And if cathinone is not a stimulant, please explain all the housework :P but on that note, some chemistry is more narcotic (ie narrow form). It seems feasable to conclude that some other unidentifyied active is also in some chemotypes, not simply cathine, nor-ephedrine or cathinone. I think science needs some more exercise in this area. I feel the true nature of chemotype diversity is larger than one would realize.

Yes I have not stated myself correctly. Typo error folks! Good-on-ya Naja! for spotting it! Fine corona cigar coming your way, Bud!

Ephedrine and psuedoephedrine and methylamphetamine and methylcathicone compete with adrenaline: (epinephrine)

Nor-ephedrine, nor-psuedoephedrine, amphetamine and cathicone compete with nor-adrenaline: (nor-epinephrine)

It is just this latter group now has "the backbone" to take part in dopaminergic reactions that seemed a little complex for a layman discussion here!

With ring closure phenyl-isopropylamine-ols condense to indoles - conversely sub tryptamines open to amphetamines - and either fully condense to harmines. There is much more to the subtle neurotransmitter than what the Law needs to blanket censor it.

How your housework gets done is merely a matter of your self regard and hygiene. But thank you! Under the Law that "nor-" makes all the difference in the world!

Fear not! - we know vastly more than we can say! Law Rules - not Science.

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Edited away!!!

Edited by Pat Uri

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