pet shaman's

[botanika]

AFOAF who is an animal lover and very affectionate to her pets, recently tried an experiment on her cats by giving them a small quantity of psilocybe mushrooms each. I thought I would recount it here as there was a recent discussion on whether psychedelics only affect higher primates. One cat was a white male and easily accepted the material, the other cat a black female. The black cat struggled with any attempt at force feeding and so was left alone to be fair to the cat and avoid scratching. A small quantity may have been digested but no noticeable change in behavious was noted.

The white cat however started behaving differently within about 5-10 minutes. To the owner it literally appeared to be following exactly the same pattern as a human would during a trip. It first went quite sleepy and floppy, like it had lethargy and then seemed very confused not sure whether it should walk about, sleep or scratch itself. the expression on its face also appeared different - almost sensitive and confused. In the next 5 minutes the cat bolted onto the balcony and vomited. Immediately after this it ran back into the house in the most playful and curious mood the owner had yet witnessed. The cats pupils were hugely dilated and did not respond normally to bright lights in the bathroom. The cat appeared to be very interested in movement but also confused as it looked around the room at things that weren't neccessarily there. The owner swears that it appeared the cat was thinking more and certainly noticed an elevation in its senses as it wondered around playfully meowing a particular meow it does when excited and happy. Normally this meow is rare - might hear it a few times a day. This night the cat was constantly meowing like this and purring heavily. It was also more fascinated with smells. The cat while confused and perhaps distraught at the beginning was surely loving what was happening by this stage. The owner was able to have lengthy 'staring competitions' with the cat, which normally would look away and not focus on human eyes for very long. Slowly the cats behaviour went back to normal over a period of about 2 1/2 hours.

I personally wouldn't do this of course - not even to myself - but wondering of anyone else has any interesting innocent animal trip stories?

[n00dle]

AFOAF who is an [/u]animal lover[/i] and very affectionate to her pets, recently tried an experiment on her cats by giving them a small quantity of psilocybe mushrooms each.

I think this is fucking disgusting. Ever heard of free will? Getting pets high is stupid and dumb - thier neurology is different to ours. It effects them differently.

The black cat struggled with any attempt at force feeding

Again, your FOAF is a sick fuck. Trying to force feed his/her 'loved' pets with hallucinogens, what the FUCK is he/she thinking.

anyone else has any interesting innocent animal trip stories?

Innocent? Who?

Call the RSPCA.

apologies for attitude but forcefeeding another creature a potent hallucinogen is no different to spiking someone's drink, and i'd happily teach either situation's perpretrators a DANM good lesson.

[Gollum]

I must agree with n00dle here.

I am really disappointed to hear that someone did this. This does not sound like an "experiment" This sounds like cruelty and a whole lot of stupidity. To me this friend does not fit in the catorgry of Animal Lover!

I believe in free choice. These animals had no free choice.

How would you like to be fed a powerful hallucinogen without knowing. You would freak out thinking what the fucks going on?

Basically i think this is a low act. It just shows that there are people out there with no respect for animals.

Edited February 28, 2006 by Gollum

[ajna]

if the animal was to seek out the psychedelic on it's own though, then it would be it's own fault ;) i've seen a dog running around in circles for about an hour after choosing to eat a gold top from the field, seemed like he enjoyed it. would be interesting to see if he would choose to eat them again if given the opportunity, now with the knowledge of what it does to him.

lately i've been wondering a bit about this, as a lot of my cacti have fallen victim to tripper possums!! huge chunks bitten out, tips eaten down about 5cm, any way they can get it! i wouldn't imagine they'd like the taste any more that i do, so what is it that brings them back for more?

[BlackDragon]

I was going to post a similar topic a while back, without the feeding of animals rather the self-medication they seem to partake in...

I do have a wonderful cat, who it seens is quite interested in most of my "special" herbs, but NEVER would I feed or force it to eat them. Thats sick...

She casually chews a bit of ephedra here and there, lemongrass and vietnamsese mint, basils, and guards my cactus collection like they was her own children(or kittens). I have no doubt that these animals are very aware of the activity of the plants in our garden, and quite often medicate themselves. Any thoughts...

Bd.

Edited February 28, 2006 by BlackDragon

[n00dle]

Im all for the silly dawgs and cats that choose to chow down something funky.

self medication = fine

forced medication, hell, forced anything = downright dumb

[MORG]

I have no doubt that these animals are very aware of the activity of the plants in our garden, and quite often medicate themselves. Any thoughts...

I watched a beautiful doco recently screened on SBS called "Juliette of the Herbs". The story was of this amazing woman's life, learning and practising traditional herbal lore learnt through Europe and the Middle East.

One of the things she firmly believes is that her Afghan hounds (and animals in general) all have a herbal instinct. She speaks of seeing them medicate themselves on various wild plants at different times.

I'd recommend anyone with an interest in the ethnobotanical (especially therapeutic) use of herbs (I think that might be close to all of you ) to check it out. And sorry, I didn't tape it.

www.julietteoftheherbs.com

or get Googling and you'll find more.

[MORG]

Oh, and for the record (and back on topic) I find the administration of hallucinogenic drugs to pets irresponsible.

What a way to jeopardise a loved one.

[dqd]

your friend needs to find a new friend, one with compassion, mercy and love, because these things make animals worlds revolve too!

PEACE

COMPASSION

LOVE

&

UNDERSTANDING

All creatures on this planet have these rights

sermon over

[botanika]

I was shocked when I was told this so I agree its cruel and a little sickening to be honest. I have a cat myself that ate a mushroom (must have been enoki I guess) off the kitchen bench last year but spat it out straight away. I always figured they don't like fungi and that it wouldn't affect them.

I've seen first hand some sad things like a mate's dog at uni that was addicted to cigerette smoke and beer. Poor thing would hang around the smokers at parties eating smoked filled air. I'm not interested in the ethics so much with this post. I am interested in whether its true - that it could affect an animal in such a way and whether people have any interesting stories to share or knowledge on how psychedelics may affect animals... even if any ancient cultures included animals in shamanic practices or animals self medicating like black dragon mentioned.

Are we the only animal that have psychedelic experiences or that uses plants etc to alter the mind?

[Auxin]

Try and make sure the person never tries opiates...

With morphine for instance, the smaller the animals brain is the less morphine acts as a sedative (its brain-centered effect) and the more it acts as a convulsant (spinal cord centered effect). Its proven dangerously convulsant in cats and is equivalent to strychnine in frogs.

I do hope the person does their homework.

[apothecary]

I was shocked when I was told this so I agree its cruel and a little sickening to be honest. I have a cat myself that ate a mushroom (must have been enoki I guess) off the kitchen bench last year but spat it out straight away. I always figured they don't like fungi and that it wouldn't affect them.

I've seen first hand some sad things like a mate's dog at uni that was addicted to cigerette smoke and beer. Poor thing would hang around the smokers at parties eating smoked filled air. I'm not interested in the ethics so much with this post. I am interested in whether its true - that it could affect an animal in such a way and whether people have any interesting stories to share or knowledge on how psychedelics may affect animals... even if any ancient cultures included animals in shamanic practices or animals self medicating like black dragon mentioned.

Are we the only animal that have psychedelic experiences or that uses plants etc to alter the mind?

There is footage of a Jaguar seeking out and downing some Yage with the results you're looking for. I think it was in an Ayahuasca doco.

[ajna]

and i've heard that deer seek out and eat amanita muscaria, then prance around in states of euphoria

[faustus]

Getting pets high is stupid and dumb - thier neurology is different to ours. It effects them differently.

how do you know? clearly a cat can't tell you what its experiencing, but hallucinogens do elicit behavioural changes in animals which suggests that they are... well, hallucinating. in animal studies all you can really do is make inferences from observed behaviour.

but yes, highly irresponsible. it's interesting that people think that a pet voluntarily eating drugs is fine. not that i agree/disagree

EDIT: here's an abstract i dug up. BTW if a cat purrs and does a "happy meow" it could be because it's anxious, kinda like a nervous laugh in humans.

Behavioral effects of LSD in the cat: proposal of an animal behavior model for studying the actions of hallucinogenic drugs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=Search&itool=PubMed_Citation&term=%22Jacobs+BL%22%5BAuthor%5D' target="_blank">In the course of examining the complete dose-response relationship for the behavioral effects of LSD in the cat, we discovered that, in addition to large increases in investigatory and hallucinatory-like responses, two behaviors, not previously reported, are emitted with a high probability under LSD. Beginning from a baseline of essentially zero in saline-treated animals, limb flicks and abortive grooming increase in frequency in direct relation to the dose of LSD administered (2.5, 10, 25 and 50 microgram/kg i.p.) and then decrease at higher doses (100 and 200 microgram/kg). Limb flicks are a species-specific behavior seen in normal cats almost exclusively in response to the presence of a foreign substance, such as water, on the hindpaw or forepaw. In abortive grooming, the cat orients to the body surfaces as if to groom but does not emit the consummatory grooming response (bite, lick or scratch), or emits the response in midair. These behaviors can serve as an animal behavior model for the actions of LSD and related hallucinogens in humans. The specificity of these behavioral changes is indicated by the fact that they are never seen in response to other classes of psychoactive drugs such as D-amphetamine, atropine, caffeine, and cholorpheniramine. They are, however, elicited by compounds such as psilocybin which are structurally and functionally related to LSD. The validity of the model is based on evidence indicating that it is: specific to hallucinogens, dose dependent, observed in a dose range effective in humans, parallels the major parameters of the actions of LSD in humans (see following paper), sensitive, robust, reliable, quantifiable and easy to score.

Edited February 28, 2006 by twix elbert

[n00dle]

AFOAF who is an animal lover and very affectionate to her pets, recently..

I was shocked when I was told this so I agree its cruel and a little sickening to be honest.

...

anyway.

Getting pets high is stupid and dumb - thier neurology is different to ours. It effects them differently.

how do you know? clearly a cat can't tell you what its experiencing, but hallucinogens do elicit behavioural changes in animals which suggests that they are... well, hallucinating.

A cat is a cat, a human is a human. They have different neurology, period. Even if they share all the same objective symptoms, it's impossible that they all go via the same mechanisms. This is all i said.. Im positive (based on my own beliefs) that animals can experience euphoria from many forms of external stimulation, including chemicals. However..

in animal studies all you can really do is make inferences from observed behaviour.

So true! And i agree. If a can't can't tell you what it's experiencing,one cannot determine effectively whether the animal is experiencing pain, or severe emotional trauma. It's wrong on so, so many levels.

[AndyAmine.]

Beginning from a baseline of essentially zero in saline-treated animals, limb flicks and abortive grooming increase in frequency in direct relation to the dose of LSD administered (2.5, 10, 25 and 50 microgram/kg i.p.) and then decrease at higher doses (100 and 200 microgram/kg).

Whhhaaaaat, 200mcg/1kg in a cat! Geez louise, thats nuts... lets hope they werent large or over weight cats.. LOL

[Shroom-Aura]

I've seen first hand some sad things like a mate's dog at uni that was addicted to cigerette smoke and beer. Poor thing would hang around the smokers at parties eating smoked filled air.

I seen something similair and it was very sad, it was a dog of an aquantaince (not freind) of mine and it was addicted to mixed tobacco and weed smoke from a bong. I doubt it was addicted to the weed though it was most likely just the bong tobacco. It would lick the flyscreen as smoke was blown out.

As for whether animals hallucinate I think it may be possible but it would probably be like nothing we see because as someone mentioned already they have a vastly differently nuerological system.

Edited March 1, 2006 by Trich-Aura

[occidentalis]

Whhhaaaaat, 200mcg/1kg in a cat! Geez louise, thats nuts... lets hope they werent large or over weight cats.. LOL

It does sound like a lot but apparently humans are highly sensitive to LSD compared to many other animals so it may just be a moderately high dose for a cat.

[Prophet]

I watched a beautiful doco recently screened on SBS called "Juliette of the Herbs". The story was of this amazing woman's life, learning and practising traditional herbal lore learnt through Europe and the Middle East.

One of the things she firmly believes is that her Afghan hounds (and animals in general) all have a herbal instinct. She speaks of seeing them medicate themselves on various wild plants at different times.

yeah i saw that too, it was very interesting. Medicinal herbs in my main area of interest when it comes to plants. I'm sure there is a cure for just about anything out there in the natural world, we just have to find them. I think many of God's creatures have valuable knowledge in this area.

[Rev]

I find the administration of hallucinogenic drugs to pets irresponsible.

yeah it is

i think giving animals psychoactive drugs is a necessary thing in order to find out more about them, the drug and us

but its pointless doing so without there being a proper experimental design, analysis etc.

(and some tranquilisers if the animal gets into distress and needs to sleep it off)

without there being some real advance from the study ist just a silly and possibly cruel experiment

i wouldnt introduce them to it but...

If i had a dog or monkey or whatever and it started drinking beer, eating shrooms or smoking then id probably just allow it to continue to do so.

after all they are a pet

a strange breed of animal that is in strange limbo. physically an animal but living in a human world so neither

if i were an aliens pet id demand my daily quota of delysid, NOS and methcathinone

[soisso]

The owner swears that it appeared the cat was thinking more and certainly noticed an elevation in its senses as it wondered around playfully meowing a particular meow it does when excited and happy.

...

This night the cat was constantly meowing like this and purring heavily. It was also more fascinated with smells.

...

The owner was able to have lengthy 'staring competitions' with the cat, which normally would look away and not focus on human eyes for very long.

maybe you were just tripping..

[botanika]

maybe you were just tripping..

I haven't been tripping in a while, but you can assume whatever you want about my aquaintence. Reality is only an opinion afterall...

Maybe its shocking maybe its something to be curious about, ultimately I just want to know more on the subject.

[Benzito]

There is footage of a Jaguar seeking out and downing some Yage with the results you're looking for. I think it was in an Ayahuasca doco.

That's interesting, because Jaguars are also described as a very common vision by tribal Ayahuasca users. I wonder if there is actually some deep spiritual connection.....?

EDIT: Oh yeah, feeding animals drugs bad.

I made this post(http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2561&hl=rabbit#) about my rabbit consuming morning glory, of his own free will, though. He still does it to this day if he gets a chance.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Benzito

[botanika]

I found an old fungi perfecti catalog lying around and inside is a small section on mycomedicinals for pets:

'MUSH for pets

Mush is a full spectrum medicinal mushroom formula designed to support your pets health. A mixture of equal proportions of Cordyceps, Reishi, Maitake, Shittake and turkey tail, MUSH is complete with polysaccharides, glycoproteins and anti-inflammatories for healthier joints and increased mobility. Taste tested and approved by dogs, cats and horses. Powder mixes easily with wet food. Sold in one pound increments.'

[Rev]

we once had 2 rabbits several years ago

one loved khat

the other loved cannabis and poppies

it wasnt that we fed them but they would escape and go eat their favourite plants in the yard

That's interesting, because Jaguars are also described as a very common vision by tribal Ayahuasca users. I wonder if there is actually some deep spiritual connection.....?

jaguars are dangerous animals. feared and respected

like elsewhere in the world i would not be suprised if humans learnt of capi by seeing a jaguar eating it

u know the old story about how the people discovred teh cure for snake bite- mongoose (or goanna) fights snake, then goes and eats a plant to counteract the poison

capi on its own in low doses affects the senses as it stimulates, depresses hunger and fatigue, and assist mental focus . good for hunting

so many of our medicines were probably discovered this way.

the legend of coffee speaks of goats

goats also mention in horny goat weed

maybe working elephants medicated in thailand with kratom?

maybe pastoral animals also showed humans ephedra when they got a cold, poppies when in pain and cannabis when they were pregnant

its the most feasible way.

trial and error would kill too many people