Van Nguyen hanging: what it means to the "aspirational battlers"

[caludia]

this post is not really to discuss any particulars of the Nguyen case. It is more to ask what people here think about average aussie opinions. i was listening to 2ue this arvo and the shock jock was saying that this young guy was comparable to Osama bin Laden. The govt minister on the line, think it was Bruce Baird, was saying how he opposes the death penalty. So the shock jock said, "well, do you oppose it for osama?" that sort of thing)

was australia always like this? maybe i missed something growing up. might not have been paying full attention? in particular in wasn't the shock jock who shocked me the most: it was the average aussie battlers calling in who shocked me the most. So many of them thought he deserved death. are these people dumb? or vicious?

[psynergy]

they're all ignorant and conservative people who put drug dealing on the same level as terrorism...which is ridiculous and yes..dumb. so that'd explain why they are saying shit like "oh he deserves it" "hang the scumbag" etc.. drugs should never warrent death...they're inanimate objects, they don't hunt and kill ur children. fuck they shit me

[apothecary]

Their ignorance (whether it's their fault or not) of love makes them vicious.

I don't thnik it's dumb, I think it's sad. I'm frustrated I can't do something to change it. What should I do? I participate in some student activism stuff and so on, but I feel pretty useless otherwise.

[2b]

Yes, he was wrong in what he did. Did he know it was a death sentence if caught with over 15gs' of heroin in Singapore ? I would not be surprised if he was ignorant to that fact . Possibly that is why he was sent via there (you notice i wrote sent , as i believe he was doing under the direction of others) in the first place , who would be brave enough test it out ? Should he die for his crime ? As despicable as Heroin is , no he should not die. But watch this space as it's only just warming up , there's still nine young Australians in Indonesia awaiting a similar fate.

[Conan Troutman]

As despicable as Heroin is , no he should not die.

Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power. ~P.J. O'Rourke

Australians seem to have to great deal of sympathy for druggies caught out of the country,

I cant understand why people are kicking up a fuss of this guy. Anti-asian sentiment. ??

While i dont think he should die. This is beause I dont support the death penalty for any crime.

Wonder how many that are calling for a pardon screamed for the death of Abu Bashir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austr...ational_prisons

Mick Kelty AFP (sp?) said on lateline that stopping the "bali 9" entering the country saved 2000 young australian lives. Anyone know the figure for herion related deaths compared to booze and cigs.

remember David Hicks?

end rant..

[Conan Troutman]

Anyway, no drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the source of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power. ~P.J. O'Rourke

Australians seem to have to great deal of sympathy for druggies caught out of the country,

I cant understand why people are kicking up a fuss of this guy. Anti-asian sentiment. Media coverage??

While i dont think he should die. This is beause I dont support the death penalty for any crime.

Wonder how many that are calling for a pardon screamed for the death of Abu Bashir.

We've all heard of Stephen John Sutton?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Austr...ational_prisons

Mick Kelty AFP (sp?) said on lateline that stopping the "bali 9" entering the country saved 2000 young australian lives. Anyone know the figure for herion related deaths compared to booze and cigs.

remember David Hicks?

end rant..

[Rev]

what shits me is that the aussie govt will even consider discussions over this guy while hicks rots for no crime at all in a US living hell

I dont support the death penalty in australia but i dont oppose it elsewhere. every place should do whats right for their country

heroin is a pretty addictive destructive drug. dealing in it is not going to promote sympathy even amongst the pro drug lobby.

I feel the same way about this as id feel if big tobacco had its come uppance

[mescalito]

Who's fault is it that our youth are misguided these days?

Certainly not theirs IMO and no-one deserves to die for fucking up in a world with no reasonable guidance.

Are drugs really that much of a social danger in these asian countries?

Doesn't the US gov't pose a potentially higher mortality risk than heroin in ANY country?

[faustus]

clearly the reasoning behind the death penalty for this guy and parallels being drawn with bin laden is the links that the heroin trade has with funding terrorist ambitions in the middle east.

i really wouldn't consider that listening to 2UE puts your finger on the pulse of australian opinion. two types of people listen to these shows: those that are sympathetic to these right-wing zealots such as stan zemanek, and those who for some reason or another enjoy getting riled by their absurdly extreme rhetoric. i must admit that at times i fall into the latter!

3 reasons why i'm opposed to the death penalty for this guy:

- think that the death penalty is wrong.

- from what i've read he was very cooperative with the authorities and information he provided lead to further arrests.

- he has baby face features that makes him look so innocent.

REV: if you believe that every country should do what's right for their own country, why don't you then support a US military trial for hicks? or the stoning to death of that lady who committed adultery (don't remember the country).

[mescalito]

...and those who for some reason or another enjoy getting riled by their absurdly extreme rhetoric. i must admit that at times i fall into the latter

LOL me too.

I know more successful recovered heroin addicts than i do recovered murderers sanctioned or not.

Murder IS murder.

Off topic I love your avatar Twix

[apothecary]

REV: if you believe that every country should do what's right for their own country, why don't you then support a US military trial for hicks? or the stoning to death of that lady who committed adultery (don't remember the country).

Iran.

[2b]

I think Somalia as well ?

[gomaos]

drugs should never warrent death...they're inanimate objects, they don't hunt and kill ur children. fuck they shit me

that's right exactly.

As long as just about any other option to kill oneself (power-sports, playing with snakes, race-cars, etcetcetc...)

is legal and mostly even supported and funded by governments (sports),

so should all drugs be legal and available to responsible adults.

(What we are not responsible?

Who decides?

Some Conservative Whacko? Who cares?)

The real criminals are those who make anti-drug-laws (mostly in favour of pharma-, cigarette- and alcohol- companies, or as it was the case with cannabis in the 1920s or so, the real reason it was banned was that it would have been a too dangerous competitor for cotton!!!)

and those who hunt down, punish and even kill others because they take drugs.

[Rev]

im positioned against the death penalty but also equally against cultural imperialism

my comments only apply to the application of the punishment - the death penalty

not to the way in which the trial is carried out

im against the military trial in the US because of the trial structure itself and because the whole thing is illegal and politically motivated

wherever it is the law needs to be applied fairly, with rights of appeal, and where the jailers are also subject to transparency and legal liability - in hicks case for example none of this occured

if this is all applied above board and your guilt is proven beyond reasonable doubt then i dont think the australian govt has anything to complain about.

Im not sure what would be worse really... hanging or life in a SE asian jail

Its not like im vehemently antagonistic towards international heroin smugglers per se, its that i dont give a shit about them. If he had been smuggling arms i would think the same.

Heroin is a drug of exploitation, from harvest to injection. There is no way you could successfully you were doing it for any other cause than to make money and with disregard to public safety and welfare.

i dont mind admitting im a drug elitist, though i see academic value in argueing about the right to use all drugs, in reality i see no value in recreational heroin, cept maybe personal growth from getting over it.

i dont have pity for junkies, just contempt. (despite that i still support injection rooms and needle exchange - purely as a matter of public safety eg HIV,Hep C, discarded needles) . Then again i figure its not really the junk but the addiction itself, substitute anything, theres a weakness in people that get addicted that reviles me. No self respect and a voluntary submission of your free will. I may be unreasonable in my comtempt but i make no apology that this in particular is a personal peeve.

my antagonism to drugs and people who profit froim them pretty much correlates to their addictiveness rather than their illegality or mode of usage. Those who deal in addictive susbtances get no empathy from me just as they have no empathy for their clientele.

addiction is good business but bad ethics, in contrast the perfect ethical drug would be hard to sell as the client would want it less and less with continuing usage

for me the issue of drug use is about freedom of choice. when a drug as addictive as heroin is considered then this violates the freedom of choice just as much as prohibition does.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Rev

[wandjina]

whilst i agree that van nguyen should definately not be executed for his 'crime', nor anyboby else for drug related matters, it is not because I completely disagree with the death penalty. For example:

IMO, people who torture, rape and murder children, have forfitted their right to live among us. As far as i'm concerned locking them away in solitary confinement for the rest of their lives is inhumane, and a waste of resources. I realise there are alot of complex issues related to the death penalty, but there are some individuals who IMO cannot, and should not, be allowed to live in our society...many 'serial killers' (sociopaths/psychopaths/violent pedophiles etc) are kept in prison with no hope of reform until the day they die...where's the sense in that?

Then again i figure its not really the junk but the addiction itself, substitute anything, theres a weakness in people that get addicted that reviles me. No self respect and no consideration for the welfare of others.

shit rev, i though I was being a hard arse!

I can empathise with you're feelings to a degree, addicts can resort to some pretty repulsive behaviour , but many addicts never do. I know there are some recovering users in this community who would be deeply offended by your comments.

Re addicts 'weakness', a recent study has shown there is a correlation between PTSD and heroin dependance, i.e. many 'junkies' were abused as children. Sure, many people who suffer abuse as kids never become drug addicts, but I think it's unfair to label all 'junkies' as being the way they are because of some inherent 'weakness' of character. Further, not all 'junkies' have no self-respect or lack of consideration for others, that's a load of shit...did you get ripped off or something?

[apothecary]

I think Somalia as well ?

Anywhere that Islam is both religion and law.

In Iran (can't speak for Somalia) the case is that usually the religious judges hand down the stoning sentence, but nobody expects it to go through anymore and magistrates often change the final "ruling" to something that doesn't involve pelting someone with rocks.

unfair to label all 'junkies' as being the way they are because of some inherent 'weakness' of character. Further, not all 'junkies' have no self-respect or lack of consideration for others, that's a load of shit...

Yep.

[Rev]

Further, not all 'junkies' have no self-respect or lack of consideration for others, that's a load of shit...did you get ripped off or something?

hehe

yeah i totally understand that its not a popular sentiment. I dont claim to be right just thats how i feel

ripped off? no

i dont know the real reason i hold this conviction. its my problem

quite possibly a relict of the way i was brought up. I can be quite cold to others problems at times when i feel the problems are self inflicted

i dont mean to offend.

[faustus]

i dont have pity for junkies, just contempt... Then again i figure its not really the junk but the addiction itself, substitute anything, theres a weakness in people that get addicted that reviles me.... No self respect and a voluntary submission of your free will.

imagine growing up in a poor neighbourhood in a single-parent family. no education, no money, no fucking hope for anything. maybe pharmacological bliss doesn't seem like too bad an idea?

+ if you read into the literature about addiction, what emerges is an acknowledgement that addiction is a disease, not "weakness of the will". one quick example:

----------------

Addiction, a Disease of Compulsion and Drive: Involvement of the Orbitofrontal Cortex

Understanding the changes in the brain which occur in the transition from normal to addictive behavior has major implications in public health. Here we postulate that while reward circuits (nucleus accumbens, amygdala), which have been central to theories of drug addiction, may be crucial to initiate drug self-administration, the addictive state also involves disruption of circuits involved with compulsive behaviors and with drive. We postulate that intermittent dopaminergic activation of reward circuits secondary to drug self-administration leads to dysfunction of the orbitofrontal cortex via the striato-thalamo-orbitofrontal circuit. This is supported by imaging studies showing that in drug abusers studied during protracted withdrawal, the orbitofrontal cortex is hypoactive in proportion to the levels of dopamine D2 receptors in the striatum. In contrast, when drug abusers are tested shortly after last cocaine use or during drug-induced craving, the orbitofrontal cortex is hypermetabolic in proportion to the intensity of the craving. Because the orbitofrontal cortex is involved with drive and with compulsive repetitive behaviors, its abnormal activation in the addicted subject could explain why compulsive drug self-administration occurs even with tolerance to the pleasurable drug effects and in the presence of adverse reactions. This model implies that pleasure per se is not enough to maintain compulsive drug administration in the drugaddicted subject and that drugs that could interfere with the activation of the striato-thalamo-orbitofrontal circuit could be beneficial in the treatment of drug addiction.

-----------------

the current perspective is that drugs of addiction hijack the dopaminergic pathways of the brain (nucleus accumbens etc). if you've ever seen a video clip of this woman who had an electrode implanted into her accumens to control her epilepsy, you'd see how reinforcing this pathway is. using a remote control that could activate the electrode, she persisted in activating her accumbens day in day out. neglected her family and other relationships, didn't bother with personal hygiene, developed blisters on her finger...

i must admit addicts piss me off. i guess it's the idea that they persist in their addictive behaviour when it's so readily apparent that it's causing a fuckload more harm than any good to them. but i wouldn't really call it a weak will, but more likely, bad genetics, brain chemistry and a screwed up environment.

[trixxy3]

Personally I am of the opinion that the general public view is more sympathetic than it seems by saying he deserves death. I think its more the acknowledgement that that is what the law says in Singapore, not whether it is right or wrong. From that perspective he should serve the punishment, and as a foreigner visiting that country you have to accept that and the consequences, after all it is a different country and a different culture.

[mescalito]

I dont have pity for junkies, just contempt.... No self respect and a voluntary submission of your free will. I may be unreasonable in my comtempt but i make no apology that this in particular is a personal peeve.....i dont know the real reason i hold this conviction. its my problem

quite possibly a relict of the way i was brought up. I can be quite cold to others problems at times when i feel the problems are self inflicted

i dont mean to offend.

We know you never mean to offend Rev but I'm a little shocked nonetheless.The types of people you refer to are also a product of their upbringing.Would you feel it unfair if heroin users ruled the senate and you were at the gallows just for making a statement like this?

 

IMO, people who torture, rape and murder children, have forfitted their right to live among us....there are some individuals who IMO cannot, and should not, be allowed to live in our society...many 'serial killers' (sociopaths/psychopaths/violent pedophiles etc) are kept in prison with no hope of reform until the day they die...where's the sense in that?

As much sense in letting another human decide their fate by killing them...I mean if we as humans can't find ways to deal with the monster we have inevitably created through our greed and powermongering then i guess it's only a matter of time before we're all deemed "useless" and discarded.

 

Personally I am of the opinion that the general public view is more sympathetic than it seems by saying he deserves death. I think its more the acknowledgement that that is what the law says in Singapore, not whether it is right or wrong. From that perspective he should serve the punishment, and as a foreigner visiting that country you have to accept that and the consequences, after all it is a different country and a different culture.

I bet everyone here has done something that could have landed them in jail for years but did you ever think it would??

No you thought I'm too careful and I won't get caught, or it's only once or whatever but the fact remains most of you would be bitchin' like mad had you been caught and convicted to the full extent of the law!

This guy's prolly no different to you or I in many ways..he just got caught and for fuck's sake he's a human BEING.

I certainly don't have a definitive answer on the subject but I sure as hell believe that neither I nor any living person have the right to take anyones life for any reason.It's collectively our fault we don't know how to handle these social ills and it came to this.

JC once said "give a man a fish and feed him for a day....teach him how to fish and feed him for a lifetime"

Unfortunately our forefathers have let us down in a major way as most of us are still lining up for fish.

[wandjina]

As much sense in letting another human decide their fate by killing them...I mean if we as humans can't find ways to deal with the monster we have inevitably created through our greed and powermongering then i guess it's only a matter of time before we're all deemed "useless" and discarded.

I get your point,and in principle I agree. In practice though, in everyday reality,what alternative would you suggest? Perhaps 'we' are/society is to blame, but that still doesn't solve the problem of how to deal with individuals who pose such a threat to others. We cannot leave them to their own devices, we must do something. IMO keeping those who molest and murder children in jail till they die is an exercise in futility, and is just as much deciding their fate as killing them (I realise you agree these are both senseless options...but you do not offer an alternative)

Further, I do not believe that all sociopaths/psychopaths etc are solely a product of 'our greed and powermongering'. While this may capture some of the picture, murder, rape and pedophilia predate 'modern' 'civilised' society. Even those 'primitive' cultures we romanticise/idealise sometimes dealt with violent/dangerous individuals by eliminating them....this was done out of necessity. Someone who murders children and women, for example, threatens the survival of a community, on more than just the 'practical' level.

Further, IMO, sometimes people are born who for some reason lack empathy, which in my opinion defines 'evil'.

'Evil' acts cannot be explained solely with reference to 'modern' social ills, and even if much 'evil' is, we still have to deal with the 'real life' consequences of it.(Which is not to say that we shouldn't address the 'causes').

That said, i would not support the introduction of the death penalty here, for a variety of reasons.

Lastly, if any of us were faced with a situation in which we or our loved ones were in mortal danger, and the only way to defend ourselves was to kill our attacker...well fuck, I sure as hell know I'd do anything to defend my child. I'd kill if I had to. I think all the other parents here would do the same.

But isn't that 'another human deciding their fate', and therefore, in principle, wrong?. What is the alternative? Remind ourselves that the attacker is a victim of our 'greed and powermongering'? Try to reason with the wild eyed maniac who intends to kill us and our family?

[caludia]

Personally I am of the opinion that the general public view is more sympathetic than it seems by saying he deserves death. I think its more the acknowledgement that that is what the law says in Singapore, not whether it is right or wrong. From that perspective he should serve the punishment, and as a foreigner visiting that country you have to accept that and the consequences, after all it is a different country and a different culture.

would your view extend to aussie women, or gay people, serving time (or losing their lives, or being mutilated) in accordance with Saudi Arabian local islamic laws, for example, for "offenses" which are tolerated or even celebrated, in some circles, in liberal society?

my own view is that dumb or cruel laws should be denounced as dumb or cruel, cultural sensitivities notwithstanding. Call that my disgraceful culturally imperialistic hitchens-esque bias ;-)

allah knows there are some bloody dumb laws Down Under too, and we don't feel disinclined to criticize them, do we? even if a vast section of the population is in support of said dumb rules.

people are people, so laws are laws. And laws & punishments should be denounced for what they are, when appropriate, in my opinion..

[trixxy3]

Don't get me wrong, what I said was not my personal opinion, but how I was assuming the public view to be formed in regards to whether he should be sentenced to death or not.

would your view extend to aussie women, or gay people, serving time (or losing their lives, or being mutilated) in accordance with Saudi Arabian local islamic laws, for example, for "offenses" which are tolerated or even celebrated, in some circles, in liberal society?

What makes a person homosexual? who knows, science doesn't even know exactly, but its most likely not a choice the person makes knowing the punishment, likewise with the sex of a child, its not a choice the person makes, so no that view obviously wouldn't extend to those circumstances.

my own view is that dumb or cruel laws should be denounced as dumb or cruel, cultural sensitivities notwithstanding. Call that my disgraceful culturally imperialistic hitchens-esque bias ;-)

allah knows there are some bloody dumb laws Down Under too, and we don't feel disinclined to criticize them, do we? even if a vast section of the population is in support of said dumb rules.

people are people, so laws are laws. And laws & punishments should be denounced for what they are, when appropriate, in my opinion..

If this was such a stupid law, where has the fuss been for the last 20 or so years when the first Australians were convicted to death? Maybe this guy will serve as a martyr to change, sadly that seems to be the only way people respond, is to these sorts of extremes, just human nature I guess.

And by the way I almost totally agree with your culturally imperialistic bias: A society that tolerates little is an intolerable society.

[caludia]

Don't get me wrong, what I said was not my personal opinion, but how I was assuming the public view to be formed in regards to whether he should be sentenced to death or not.

Yep sorry Trixxy, I didn't read your post close enough. In fact you were replying very closely to the actual forum topic, which was how aussies feel about a guy being put to death in singapore for a drug crime, and why so many of them seem to support it. And I think you're right, too, with your statement about the reason that many aussies support the carrying out of the hanging of this guy Nguyen being a sort of sympathy with the rights of other sovereign countries to make their own laws. Good point.