Mushrooms & The Ability to sleep

[Evil Genius]

Hi,

i wonder if someone knows why it is almost impossible for me to sleep anytime i´ve ingested psilocybes?

When i once witnessed people who ingested mushrooms in excess, i noticed that they weren´t able to find sleep as long as they continued to take mushrooms every day. I wonder if this has something to do with the state of Dreaming. I´d be very interested if the mushroom trip makes the brain believe that it has allready slept and dreamt. Maybe someone knows what chemicals are involved in this particular part of brain chemistry. I haven´t noticed any neurological deficits like the desire to sleep or hallucinations beacuse of the long sleepless time during these 24/7 Mushroom Periods.Theoretically, do you think it would be possible to suppress the desire to sleep as long as you´d take mushrooms on a regular time basis? It´s possible to me that a Mushroom Trip might be some kind of sleep for the Brain. I´d be very interested iny our thoughts about that. Best Regards EG

PS: all the the Psilocybes mentioned above have surely been taken in a country where they are still legal... far far away from here.

[Benzito]

Mushrooms are quite stimulating, so it could well just be a similar kind of thing to speed?

Using speed to excess prevents you sleeping, but not because you have 'dreamt', just because you're stimulated. Same thing with coffee, it stops you sleeping, but not because it is some kind of 'sleep substitute'.

But, you go a week or so on a speed binge, you end up pretty crazy from lack of sleep, even though you don't feel like you need to rest.

But, I'm very inexperienced with both speed and mushrooms, so I'm just throwing my own theory out there. ;)

[Evil Genius]

Hi Benzito,

i assume you are fully right about the similaries to speed. Thinking about my experiences with speed during the raw youth, i never couldn´t sleep too. This also was the case when using similar substances, eventhough that doesn´t count for ephedrine.I sleep like a baby after my asthma medicamentation

The Difference to Mushrooms is that i was totally wrecked and crashed after taking speed. I´d be pleased to know if a hypothetical hardcore mushroom user would just look as spoiled as a hardcore speed user after 24/7. After a long mushroom day i´m mostly very tired but to me it´s not comparable to the zombie i turned into after i took amphetamines.

[Conan Troutman]

Dont think you really can relate hrooms to speed, in its insomiac?? effects.

Thinks speed is a much more pronounced stimuli and much harder to sleep on,

saying that, it is not out the ordinary too often have difficulty in getting a sound restful sleep after any

psyc experience.

Once moer acusotmed to effects the easiers it gets...me thinks anyway :ph34r:

p.s>I now use smileys for no real reason

[genki]

AFOAF has, on occasion been known fall asleep during mushroom trips although usually only on smaller doses <2g dried. when he does he has the most vivid, crazy dreams. this only happens when he starts the trip feeling tired anyway though.

[mescalito]

I find it hard to get to sleep anyway and that's a serotonin/melatonin thing from adrenaline overload and depression.Psilocybin plays happily with the serotonin receptors so it would be feasable that things like appetite,sleep and sex-drive would all be affected.

Back in the day I fel asleep for ~16hrs on 2 X tabs I was exhausted though.

[naja naja]

I think something needs to be said for the responsible use of any drug. There is a huge difference between use and abuse! and what you have described is a major abuse of potentially harmfull drugs(physical and mental) Speed is addictive and the main reason I don't touch it, but binges are understandable, whereas mushrooms are non-addictive and I really can't understand why one would want to binge on these. They may be physically safe, but I bet after a week you'd be pushing the safe mental limits. Give the shrooms the respect they deserve and in turn they will do the same.

As for sleep, I can't sleep when intoxicated, but as soon as it wears off I'm down for the count. I sleep well and long as if I had done heavy physical activities, even though I have not left my room. But I do constantly yawn when shrooming, could be a lack of oxygen from forgetting to breathe?

I don't think it replaces sleep in any way and can only conclude that such large doses may be altering your brains chemistry permanently or atleast semi-permanent. Especially the dialer!!

[Benzito]

Mesc: I only just noticed, and it spun me out: Your avatar, the mushrooms are 'breathing'!

Has that always been the case?

(Sorry to hi-jack the thread)

[Amulte]

ive found its not just mushrooms, all hallucinogens have the same habbit.

[genki]

my FOAF could never fall asleep on anything else, especially not LSD. it seems to be something that is restricted to mushrooms

[Evil Genius]

Hi Naja Naja,

thanks for your thoughts!

It´s good that you mentioned the bad effects of speed on the health.

If you check out my post you´ll recognize that i never mentioned anything good about speed. I don´t take it anymore since i was a young child who tested drugs and what kind of effects they had. I think to check out is a human principle. From me, you´ll definately never hear praise for this kind of Drug . Unfortunately I too lost friends to that "speed bitch". It´s sad but in my opinion addicitions are rather developing because the people who taking them have lost control over their comsumption. What i know from my personal point of view. the enviroment or the discussions about drugs are also influencing factors but i´d say that they are secondary though, because there are people who are more receptive for developing an addiction than others.

It´s important to me that in a Forum that is specialized in this particular area like the shaman australis board, it is important that we discuss about these topics because i´m sure people can still learn a lot about brain chemistry. If there wouldn´t been people who are working on this, there could be no progresses in this area. Maybe some mushroom chemicals might metabolize in the Brain to some stil relative unclear substances, that could be from a highly interest for getting a better understanding of serious brain diseases which are affected by receptors.

Don´t get me wrong, i really appreciate your suggestion to handle the mushrooms with all necessary respect. Mainly i´m interested in the chemical interactions in the Brain during a prolonged time period. I strongly disadvice anyone to ingest any kind of drug. Drug Abuse is an individual Problem.

I heard about the comment because of the accelerated altering. I´d be interested if this is measurable in some way. I believe i remember that Wasson or Hoffman once mentioned it in a paper after having some talks with Maria Sabina. But i could also err about the origin of this info. Nevertheless, it´s a highly thrilling topic to me. Maybe mushrooms might be able to give us a better understanding of our worlds rules, chemically and physically. I´m a bit of a control Freak

Thanks for sharing your info, Amulte. I didn´t noticed that this seems to be the case in almost all hallucinogens.

[spiders]

When i first took mushrooms I had all sorts of trouble sleeping - used to get super horny and have this sorta bored feeling sometimes when i was easing back into the real world.

Once I had a super strong mushie trip and things were getting a little rough. I hadbnt had much sleep at all in days and i was already pretty tired - so i just calmly went to bed and forcedf myself to sleep - nowdays - maybe because im starting to get older - but i get tired sometimes even when im peaking - and have to fight the urge to take a nap.

Recently i did have some trouble sleeping, but in general i dont anymore -

[mescalito]

Benz:

Mesc: I only just noticed, and it spun me out: (Your avatar) the mushrooms are 'breathing'!

Has that always been the case?

Yep but mushies are like that ;)

Aya and amanita can both be quite sedating though.

[Conan Troutman]

Ah the mushy yawns..strange phenomena

More like half yawns, ussually a good sign they are gonna hit home hard. thoughts?

think if you put you body/brain through "enough" it is easy to crash out once your down(shrooms)

need a good 16hrs if u wanna have any chance after Alice

[Blue]

<_< "It´s important to me that in a Forum that is specialized in this particular area like the shaman australis board, it is important that we discuss about these topics because i´m sure people can still learn a lot about brain chemistry."

Fair Call EG, but I always try to remember that listening is more important than talking in the world of brain chemistry. This is my first forum/chat room, but it is already obvious that this particular wealth of knowledge resides in past topics as much as present day discussion, check it out if not already because a lot of my questions have been discussed in depth in posts by highly experienced individuals that provide a historical record that I could only ever have dreamt about.

Cheers Guys!

[Blue]

Woops! Spent too long reading past forums to work out how they work in practise!

[Torsten]

a few points to make hre:

mushroom yawns - There are two things that make people yawn. One is lack of oxygen in the brain and the other is elevated serotonin/melatonin. From my shroom experiences I would say it is NOT hypoxia, but rather a flush of neurotransmitters, incl serotonin. I know 2 people who get another symptom while yawning on shroom come-up. Their noses and eyes run like they have really bad hayfever. One guy who took shrooms for the first time ended up soaking two large teatowels full of snot and tears (mostly snot) in a matter of 5-10 minutes. he was a bit bewildered but ended up having a fantastic trip.

These neurotransmitters released or imitated by drugs can do funky things. Many people get immediate bowel movements from MDA and MDMA, clammy hands from MDMA, tight shoulders from acid, projectile vomitting from DMT, and embarrassingly small penises from speed (note, I get all of the above ;))

I think yawns is a minor inconvenience in comparison.

naja naja - I know several people who take shrooms every week for several months without ill effects on their minds. I myself did shrooms twice a week for 6 months 2 years in a row (total 12 months, ie 100 trips in 2 years)[note, this was in amsterdam where this is legal]. I don't think I ever had a more sensible perspective on my own life and on life itself than during that time and immediately afterwards. I think that shrooms fit into the category like ayahuasca, where regular use is indeed healthy for the mind and body. That does not mean everyone should do them 50 times a year, but rather I think everyone needs to find their own suitable dosing regime.

sleepy shrooms - when I was a spring chicken acid used to keep me awake for 36 hours past my bedtime, shrooms for about half that, and speed basically until I stop taking it. Since about age 28 acid will keep me awake about 5 hours past my bedtime, shrooms will make me very tired by the end of the 3 hour trip, and speed just makes me jittery. My gut feeling is that the wakefulness is related to the dopamine system and hence as dopamine levels drop because of age or lifestyle changes so will the wakeful period of these trips. So, if you are a go-gettem stock exchange trader then chances are you will keep buzzing for hours, but if you have started to appreciate a slower life then you will probably also feel less stimulated by these drugs.

I do not think that the shrooms state is a sleep replacement for the brain. Quite the contrary. While the brain feels motivated and creative after shrooms, it is actually quite foggy and tired some hours later, indicating that the 'up' state is merely a longer lasting effect of the shrooms, and hence followed by a down state. Much of the down state is due to missing proper sleeping times though rather than the actual shrooms draining you. if for example you take shrooms in a timeframe so that you will be straight by the time your normal bedtime rolls around then I would doubt you would have ANY draining after effects from shrooms by the time you wake up (unless they disturbed your sleep with vivid dreams).

I expect that research over the next few years will find that shrooms upregulate serotonin receptors in the same way ayahuasca does and that they are hence very good at repairing problems related to serotonin deficiency. Things like their efficacy for cluster headaches and migraine prevention are just small pieces of the larger puzzle. I think we will find shrooms to be excellent antidepressants in small doses as they not only fix serotonin problems, but also appear to raise dopamine levels. Intriguingly they do this not mutually exclusively like so many other drugs do, ie they don't raise dopamine at night and serotonin during the day like many medications tend to do thus compounding the problems.

[Evil Genius]

Hi,

thank you all for your interesting thoughts about this. For me this Forum has proven to be one of the few places where master practitioners discuss about their 1st hand experiences. To me these informations are at least as important as the informations posted by someone who has aquired most of his knowledge through reading. I was just wondering about the "fact" that a 24/7 Consumption of Mushrooms doesn´t necessary have to lead to a condition which is comparable to a 24/7 Consumption of other substances like speed for example.

Thosten, i always have these running nose on mushrooms and salvia. It´s reliable every time but i didn´t thought it would be worth mentioning it. Actually i wasn´t anatomically able to breath through the nose at all during the last years because of an illness. The Only exeption to this was when i used the hallucinogens mentioned above. But only for about half an hour or somethong like that.

Best Regards EG

[spiders]

it aint hypoxia -

[Rev]

LOL BM

yeah i must be gettin old too

i have a tendency to 'nod off' but not to sleep

just entirely drunk with visions

not tired just fully absorbed and relaxed, creeps up on me

anything at all- aya,shrooms,MDMA,LSD - or mix thereof, whichever

but if i will it then i am fully awake and sharp and have great physical endurance on them , but if i sit too long alone as said the visions come over me like a dream and i nod off again totally absorbed

next morning/pm - no problem getting to sleep, in fact when you have shower and dive under the quilt late sunday morning its like a rush of euphoria anticipating the deep relaxing sleep im about to have

[naja naja]

Torsten"Where regular use is indeed healthy for the mind and body."'

Thats the sort of info I can live with, maybe i'll have to visit the netherlands more regularly. Maybe every week or two ;)

I guess it was just an assumtion that I made, in that anything that mind altering and enjoyable just had to be bad for you.

I only know of one person who took shrooms like you described and they are far from what I'd call normal. They just talk about weird trippy mystical absolute crap all the time, he use to be incredibly inteligent and motivated, but not anymore. Come to think about it now though, I think he may have just be tripping every time I see him. Either that or some of his experimentation with other random,non blueing, unidentifyed species may have nurotoxically poisoned him,

I have never felt any nurological problems, as you say, only benifits. I like an extra few hours sleep after use, but apart from that, it's fine!

Cheers

[Evil Genius]

I think that that every person shows another reaction when ingesting psilocybes. When i once had i big crisis during my life (i was in Amsterdam at that time) these mushrooms helped me to see me just like other people see me. I wasn´t blinded by myself and i was able to see all the reasons for my Problems.All my faults. Everything made sense now. The Mushrooms dindn´t told me what i should do now. I was just able to ask myself what it´s most important for me in my life and why i´m not happy anymore. Now as i saw the Trigger, i could try to react. Because of that i think that these mushrooms are a very valuable help for people who have lost their mental ballance.

[Torsten]

I find that most people who consume tryptamines on a regular basis end up babbling mystical shit all the time. Psilocybin is no exception. It does fade a bit after they stop taking tryptamines, but in many it changes their whole personality. This is fine as long as lifestyle and personality don't clash. For me as a DJ, promoter and producer it fitted neatly into my life and required no adjustments. Quite the contrary, the altered states probably gave me an edge in my work. If I was working a 9-5 job I would have probably dropped out and fucked my career at that point.

I had a few friends who were doing shrooms & acid at about the same rate and all of them integrated it well too. But again, they had similarly flexible and creative lifestyles in graphic design, media and IT. One was a teacher and he did not cope at the end, but there were some pretty severe other reasons and there is probably a good chance that the shrooms prepared him for the tough times rather than weakening his mind.

Shrooms will almost always end up disastrous if used as an escape. On the other hand, I think if you love life and what it has to offer then shrooms are quite safe as you will integrate even the hardest lessons in a positive way.

Another things that is really important with shrooms is setting. In Amsterdam if you are too trashed in public and can't find your way home, you can simply walk up to a cop and ask for direction. If you get too paranoid about pickpockets (or monsters) chasing you through the streets you can sit on a bench outside the cop shop for 'protection'. Most of the time they are just amused - especially if you are a tourist. The only time they get a bit stern is if you are likely to stumble into the canals. They really really don't like rescuing people out of those filthy canals

I've seen some very very out of it people in my life and some of them had semi or permanent damage from their experiences, however in all the time I spent in a'dam I never observed that there. Given that many of the ones I observed in australia involved some sort of paranoia about getting busted (at least initially), one must wonder just how many bad trips are actually caused by the repressive laws. And maybe that's why it appears there are less and less bad trips - as people are becoming much less fussed about authorities.

[mescalito]

Aint that always the way ;)

Edit:Have my shrooms stopped breathing or is it just my puter?

[genki]

they are still breathing