Auxin Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Quote Drugs, gums or patches won't increase your chances of quitting Using prescription drugs or over-the-counter products like gums, mints or patches won't increase your chances of quitting smoking a year later, according to a new study. The US researchers followed two groups of people 2002/03 and 2010/11 and found at the end of the 12-month period, those using varenicline (sold in Australia as Champix), bupropion (Zyban), or nicotine-replacement therapy (gums, mints or patches) were no more likely to have quit smoking for 30 days or more than those who didn't use these drugs. Evidence based smoking cessation? We're told the best way to quit smoking is to use an "evidence-based" method: a strategy supported by high-quality research evidence. And for the last 30 or so years, this has been nicotine-replacement therapy, bupropion (Zyban) and varenicline (Champix), which claim to increase (and sometimes double) your chance of success. In the hierarchy of evidence, the lowest form is anecdote or case studies ("I smoked for 20 years, then an alternative therapist sprinkled magic powder on me, and the next day I stopped smoking!"). These cannot withstand the most elementary critical appraisal, starting with the basic question of how many similar smokers sprinkled with the powder kept smoking and how many who went nowhere it also stopped smoking. Far higher up the evidence pyramid is the double-blinded, randomised controlled trial (RCTs). In these, both the person taking the treatment and those delivering it are unware of who is taking the active drug and who is taking the comparison placebo or comparison drug. All enrolled in RCTs are randomly allocated to the active or placebo/comparison groups. The numbers of participants are sufficiently large enough to allow for an outcome to be declared statistically significant (or not) above a chance finding. Some have tried to dismiss earlier findings about the poor performance of nicotine-replacement therapy by emphasising "indication bias". In the real world, those who opt to use medications to try to quit are likely to be more intractable smokers, more highly addicted to nicotine, and with histories of failure at quitting unaided. No one should therefore be surprised if they fail more often than those who try to quit on their own. In this new study, this issue was anticipated and all smokers were assessed by what the study authors called a "propensity to quit" score. This score accounts for factors such as smoking intensity, nicotine dependence, their quitting history, self-efficacy to quit, and whether they lived in a smoke-free home where quitting would likely be more supported. In the analysis, those who tried to quit with drugs and those who didn't were matched on this propensity score, so "like with like" could be compared in the analysis. The findings held even when these "propensity" to quit factors were taken into account. RCTs are very different to real world use Critics have long pointed out that RCTs have many features which make them a pale shadow of how drugs are used in the real world. RCTs often exclude people with mental illness, poor English, and no fixed address. Excluding hard-to-reach and treat participants is likely to produce more flattering results. In the real world, people are not paid or otherwise incentivised to keep taking the drugs across the full period of the trial, so compliance is almost always far lower. In the real world, people do not get reminder calls, texts or visits from researchers highly motivated to minimise trial drop-out. There is no "Hawthorne effect": when trial involvement and the attention paid to participants alters the outcomes. Nicotine-addicted people generally know very quickly if they have been allocated to the placebo arm in NRT trials because their brains feel deprived of nicotine. They invariably experience unpleasant symptoms. Knowing they have been allocated to the placebo undermines the integrity of the trial because it is important participants believe the drug might be effective. Large, real world studies like the one just published, which assess long-term success, not just end-of-treatment or short-term results, are therefore of most importance in assessing effectiveness. These new data ought to cause such rhetoric to cool right down. As for the evidence on e-cigarettes in quitting, neither the US Preventive Health Services Task Force, nor the UK's National Institute for Health and Care Excellence or Australia's National Health and Medical Research Council, have endorsed e-cigarettes as an effective way of quitting smoking. Quitting smoking is the single most important thing anyone can do to reduce the likelihood they will get heart or lung disease, and a whole string of cancers. It has been in the clear interests of the pharmaceutical and, more recently, the vaping (e-cigarette) industries, to promote the notion that anyone who tries to quit alone is the equivalent of someone with pneumonia refusing antibiotics. Hundreds of millions around the world have quit smoking without using any pharmaceutical intervention. Before nicotine-replacement therapies became available in the 1980s, many millions of smokers successfully quit smoking without using any drug or nicotine substitute. The same still happens today: most ex-smokers quit by going cold turkey. The problem is, in recent years, the government has moth-balled the national quit campaign, the megaphone for promoting this very positive message. Commercial interests are now commodifying something millions have always done for themselves. [1] 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxin Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 12 years clean here I'm one of those mythic people who quit by taper-down instead of cold turkey If I had to do it again I'd use the old fashioned fasting method just to be even more of an outlier 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicko Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I got off the ciggies with a vaporizer now I jst have a few puffs on it if I get the urge or if im out drinkin. Although i still give into a rare cigarette and then wonder why lol, drinks and socializing I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1208 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 i guess im one of the rare ones, woke up one day threw out what ciggies i had left and half ounce of weed and havent touched either since, wouldve been about 4 years ago now 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxin Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 hours ago, Dicko said: ... i still give into a rare cigarette and then wonder why lol, drinks and socializing I guess. Alcohol and LSD are hell on anyone who quit smoking in the last year or three. Just like weed and alcohol are hell on anyone whos recently quit junk food. Exactly two years after quitting the junk I got drunk just to see what would happen... Cookies and ice cream happened. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sallubrious Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) I've been smoke free since Jan 3 this year. The last time I lasted nearly 2 years before I tried "just one" and got hooked again. I'd been smoke free for over 6 years one other time when I quit. I tried patches and gums years ago but they never worked. I've always believed they are complete bullshit. It's another fraud like almost everything else offered by modern medicine. The best quitting resource I found was a PDF titled "Never Take Another Puff" by Joel Spitzer http://whyquit.com/joel/ntap.pdf Joel was one of the first people to even recognise smoking tobacco as an addiction, the medical establishment believed it was just a habit for way too long before they started calling it an addiction. In his PDF he explains the best way to successfully quit has been and always will be cold turkey no matter what bullshit the quacks believe or what crap they try to sell you. Paraphrasing here but Joel explains it like this. Imagine telling a heroin addict or any other addict the best way to quit is to take a small dose of the substance they are addicted to every day. They'd never get the chance to break the addiction. If you wanted to be really cruel to any addict you could let them go through the early stages of withdrawal and then give them a tiny hit once a day to keep the addiction in tact. That's Joel's allegory to cutting down. Why subject yourself to repeated withdrawal symptoms and then re-instate the addiction to do it again. 10 studies screaming "leave replacement nicotine alone!" The title of the article says 10 studies but there are actually 12. And the website where you can find Joel's work. http://whyquit.com/ I quit because I was a chain smoker and it was costing me too much, I've already saved over $200 in just one week. A pack of 30's (cheap brand) was about $30 when I quit, so they work out to almost exactly $1 per smoke.. How much are smokes in the US @Auxin ? If anyone from any other countries wants to show just how much we are getting fucked over, post how much they cost in your country or corporation masquerading as a country (like THE COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA) Never Take Another Puff Never Take Another Puff Never Take Another Puff Edited January 10, 2018 by Sallubrious 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxin Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 47 minutes ago, Sallubrious said: .. How much are smokes in the US @Auxin ? It varies from area to area but in my state its now up to $9 USD for a pack of 20, thats 11.50 AUD When I quit smoking 12 years ago a carton of 200 was $30 USD and that was after years of active price increases. A few years before I quit my dads buddy went to china and brought him back a pack each of the most expensive [1.50 AUD] and cheapest [0.10 AUD] chinese cigarettes. I sort of liked the nearly free kind, they burned like a fuse but they tasted like chinese food When I was unwittingly near quitting I started growing it, thats legal here, and I remember one of the things that helped me decide to quit was when I was getting ready for my third year of growing saying to myself 'ok, I get 200 cigs per plant, how many thousands cigarettes do I smoke in 12 months?... wait... thousands? hold on!' 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crop Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I used to chain smoke Gudang Garam (very strong 31mg). While in India an Ayurvedic Doctor put me on some herbal cigarettes, the main ingredient was sunflower leaves, which he said stop the craving. When I came back to Aus I bought a poach of rollies at the airport., As I smoked them I kept topping it up with chopped sunflower leaves. That was about 20 years ago, I've never bought another pack. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northerner Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 I smoked for 20 years, now I've been on the vape for years. Unflavoured and low powered, I really like it. I've quit before for years at a time with nothing, but kept coming back. Call me a nicotine junkie if you will. Vaping doesn't have the complete alkaloid profile characteristic of tobacco and isn't as addictive, there is something about the plant itself above and beyond the nicotine. Sure I could quit completely, but the reality is vaping's not that harmful and has negligible cost. In my experience it's the only thing that has ever stopped me smoking besides willpower. Anyone who says vaping doesn't work hasn't tried a device that simulates a cigarette or is in cahoots with the Cancer Council and their agenda. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DualWieldRake Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 If you feel you can't stop smoking sigarettes...you really need to get stronger cause it's a breeze....ffs. Either you'd be lying to yourself about wanting to smoke or you'd have to find your balls back 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bardo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 It is simple just don't puff, i have quit and taken it back up a few times now and i feel stupid when i had started again, just one smoke re-triggers all the bullshit again. i haven't had smokes since just before christmas, i did have some minor withdrawals like insomnia for a few nights and night sweets but its only temporary so who cares, use it to motivate not to do it again (having a strong motivater helps alot) Not only is it pointless and makes me feel like shit but every smoke is funding the government, i say fuck the government, they won't get a dime from me except through gst and land rates (bastards). When a craving comes just treat it as if the devil is wanting your health, funding, dignity, self respect etc. If one thinks they can not quit they need to self disipline themselves, if one lets a tabacco plant control them then just about anyone/thing can, stuff that believe in your self and prove your strength. Don't be a pussy and start exercising control over your self, treat your body like a garden of eden and a craving as if a serpent, don't talk to it, dont bother to negotiate, just stomp on its head. Understanding some of how nictine works helps overcome the short lasting but somewhat powerful cravings, Over time, the brain begins to treat nicotine as necessary for our survival, not unlike food and water. here is a link http://www.achoice2live.com/know-your-addiction/the-short-and-long-term-effects-of-nicotine-on-the-brain/ If one wishes to smoke or consume tabacco from there plants i don't care but when i see someone spark up a ciggie i think well thats just bought a bullet that will shoot someone, or that funded a bomb to be made, or that just helped pay for some facial recognition technology etc. so that i do care about because they are not only effecting themselves but all the worlds people, so if you smoke commercial smokes fuck you very much for your contribution : ) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auxin Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) I think, often times, people fail to quit simply because on some level they dont want to quit. It doesnt have to be a majority view in their psyche but if a significant part of them doesnt want to quit then a drug a little stress or a few beers, etc. can get them started up again. When I smoked it was because I didnt care about life. They said cigs would kill me, I said 'yeah fine sure'. It wasnt until I gave a damn that I quit. I only had to try to quit one time because I didnt let anyone pressure me into trying before I wanted to. I had similar experiences with other habits too. My cousin was seriously into meth. People nagged at him, fought with him, spent loads of money to put him through rehab, put him in jail over and over, bribed him with free sports cars and Two free houses. He blew it all, nothing worked. He liked meth more than he cared about the risks. When the day came that he no longer wanted to do it he got clean with no help at all, he just quit. Been clean for like 5 years now. It works with all addictions and habits. Edited January 11, 2018 by Auxin 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 who the fk wants to quit toking now we know how good it is for us? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northerner Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 15 minutes ago, ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ said: who the fk wants to quit toking now we know how good it is for us? Almost 20 years now for me... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 erm fkn math .. erm 93 - 2018 is ..... 18 plus 7 is .... fkn hell id better delete this shit before clicking post eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 only gave up for 6 months to try break into the army but i was too fast and too clever and too good for them .. shame about losing my math skills i think its about 24 or 5 yrs tho and do you feel healthy when well? dnno how much to give it but i was told i looked 23 yesterday .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bardo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Lol, you are a real champ thunder : ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 (edited) my biggest hurdle ever was to give up toking ... only to find it lies from day 1 and guilt for fuck all lol i can totes understand with other things but im still kinda down with the relationship i built with tobacco too but not alone and only with toaks mind you im viewing it as a smoking thing and i guess in that , revealing my own paradigm limitations of my progression of "take on it" lol - sorry , to clarify .. my view of smoking as in raw olde fashioned burn herb or what have ya to release spirit ... still havent seen a vape in the flesh or tried one for de 'erb but have a cbd pen and it's the only electronic smoakling i did so far :3 - its crap , well not a complete waste of air but yeah its crap but an amnesia haze any or every day of the week including every day of the weak - since i go weak .. weak in the presence of beauty ;) Edited January 11, 2018 by ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Cold turkey for me. Though I find the definition of quiting not a perfect title to sit under. While I won’t go buy smokes etc, on the odd occasion. So far maybe once a year, I’ve had a smoke with a mate etc. every time I get to the end and go.... fuck that’s shit. Had and a few mates try quiting several times using champix. Heard one screaming in his sleep once. I dunno, I’ve never tried any thing to help - I just did it cause I wanted to. And one of those mates that tried so many times finally did it (future pending) cold turkey - because he wanted to. Which I feel is the true underlying cause for people failing to quit - they simply don’t want to quit. Shit I was like that once. You go out drinking and smoking. You enjoy yourself so why would you want to quit - therefore you won’t. But when you do, you will. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bardo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 50 minutes ago, ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ said: my biggest hurdle ever was to give up toking ... only to find it lies from day 1 and guilt for fuck all lol i can totes understand with other things but im still kinda down with the relationship i built with tobacco too but not alone and only with toaks mind you im viewing it as a smoking thing and i guess in that , revealing my own paradigm limitations of my progression of "take on it" lol - sorry , to clarify .. my view of smoking as in raw olde fashioned burn herb or what have ya to release spirit ... still havent seen a vape in the flesh or tried one for de 'erb but have a cbd pen and it's the only electronic smoakling i did so far :3 - its crap , well not a complete waste of air but yeah its crap but an amnesia haze any or every day of the week including every day of the weak - since i go weak .. weak in the presence of beauty ;) Yeh it is a kind of relationship, it is also something often done with association like ritual, one often has triggers like after food or a certain feeling which proceeds the smoking. It requires a kind of rewiring of the brain to quit. Vaping does not have the same feel and oomph as burning things, never much was a fan of vaping. One must find or create reason to quit, i think without reason it is near futile to generate anykind of real change. I have chosen my reason/s and have created a belief in which sustains my drive to overcome and attemt to succeed in my vision/s, futile ? maybe but without my goal i would be drowning in hopelessness and despair, life seems a fickle thing and in my belief i am trying to generate something greater than i. Sorry for the ambiguity lol. Truly i think we are all going to the same destination anyhow so yeh what ever really : ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 yeah man somethings have no view in sight so take a lot of peddling at to get to hopefully where you anticipated and it's surprising what can be found where others couldn't be arsed to reach in many things but so weird when you somehow skirt the pitfalls that you've seen snaffle others like they were snickers ... i have to believe in the supernatural i shd be dead a few times over by a fair few hands by now and still regressing :3 I wonder what I'll be when I grow down ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 being spiked with a £40 china white when seeking rocks did me in 1999, was easy to quit after that and never look back .. some things need quitting more than others I guess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'm really feeling that relationship you describe with them I feel I know them that way or they appear to me in their or my [?] female form ... i always saw it before as them who were female spirits but i guess things aren't cut n dry and glad to be sharing the journey with the cool :3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bardo Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 12 minutes ago, ☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ said: i have to believe in the supernatural i shd be dead a few times over by a fair few hands by now and still regressing :3 Well thunder i would say the gods are not done with you yet : ) i would say your purpose is still to be fulfilled : ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
☽Ţ ҉ĥϋηϠ₡яღ☯ॐ€ðяئॐ♡Pϟiℓℴϟℴ Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 On 10/01/2018 at 0:01 AM, Sallubrious said: I've been smoke free since Jan 3 this year. The last time I lasted nearly 2 years before I tried "just one" and got hooked again. I'd been smoke free for over 6 years one other time when I quit. I tried patches and gums years ago but they never worked. I've always believed they are complete bullshit. It's another fraud like almost everything else offered by modern medicine. The best quitting resource I found was a PDF titled "Never Take Another Puff" by Joel Spitzer http://whyquit.com/joel/ntap.pdf Joel was one of the first people to even recognise smoking tobacco as an addiction, the medical establishment believed it was just a habit for way too long before they started calling it an addiction. In his PDF he explains the best way to successfully quit has been and always will be cold turkey no matter what bullshit the quacks believe or what crap they try to sell you. Paraphrasing here but Joel explains it like this. Imagine telling a heroin addict or any other addict the best way to quit is to take a small dose of the substance they are addicted to every day. They'd never get the chance to break the addiction. If you wanted to be really cruel to any addict you could let them go through the early stages of withdrawal and then give them a tiny hit once a day to keep the addiction in tact. That's Joel's allegory to cutting down. Why subject yourself to repeated withdrawal symptoms and then re-instate the addiction to do it again. 10 studies screaming "leave replacement nicotine alone!" The title of the article says 10 studies but there are actually 12. And the website where you can find Joel's work. http://whyquit.com/ I quit because I was a chain smoker and it was costing me too much, I've already saved over $200 in just one week. A pack of 30's (cheap brand) was about $30 when I quit, so they work out to almost exactly $1 per smoke.. How much are smokes in the US @Auxin ? If anyone from any other countries wants to show just how much we are getting fucked over, post how much they cost in your country or corporation masquerading as a country (like THE COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA) Never Take Another Puff Never Take Another Puff Never Take Another Puff you want to so you will and good on ya mate , I've a mate who is two years in and he just quit cigs outright and he is a lot happier and its a beautiful thing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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