Casual Work Wages???

[Torsten]

Last time I did casual work in a job without qualifications I earned $6 to $8, but that was quite a few years ago.

I was just wondering what things are like these days. Could anyone who has recently worked in a casual job without formal qualifications give me some examples of how much they earned.

To put things into perspective please state the following (just refer to the numbers):

1) Type of job (and type of work involved)

eg Bricky's labourer (heavy lifting)

2) number of hours per week

3) metropolitan or country

4) high unemployment area or not (if known)

5) are there any skills required for this job?

6) did you have these skills (or were you trained on the job)?

7) how much do you get paid?

8) is this before or after tax. If before tax, then please state if 'cash in hand'.

If you don't want to post such info here, then feel free to e-mail me with the same details. I would really appreciate it.

[email protected]

[Yeti101]

1)Farm Laborer. (I stacked trays of kiwi fruit in a shed all day, so yes to the lifting and making pallets to put the trays on.)

2) 40 - 50 hrs/wk

3) Country

4) high unemployment area

5) Not really

6) "Anyone can use a nailgun."

7) $12.40

8) After tax

[WarpedAstro]

About 3-4 years ago when I backpacked around Australia, I worked on farms as I go as picker/farm labourer.

I spend 7 months working at a Banana plantations up Innisfail the job was "casual" but I worked 35 hours a week for 7 months straight earned 11.50 an hour before taxes, it was shit pay for hard work, but had great time. The area wasn't "High Unemployment" area, there was plenty of work, but the locals couldn't be bothered to work on farms. No skills needed, just be strong to carry these 40-60 kilos bananas on your shoulders all day to the trailer.

otherwise check out these two links:

http://www.wagenet.gov.au/

If I assume you are looking for a Garden/Landscape Labourer the details for NSW is:

http://www.dir.nsw.gov.au/awards/pathways/...&award_code=420

hope helps, cheers WA

[This message has been edited by WarpedAstro (edited 29 July 2002).]

[waterdragon]

about 12.50 cashish per hour for casual orchard work is normal. anything less than that fails to draw much enthusiasm.

[shroomy]

And on the other end of the scale:casual coal miners $42p/h double time after 8 hours. Moral of the story: DONT employ coal miners unless you own a coal mine.

[faustus]

1) burger king (flipper of burgers)

2) 25-30hrs/week

3) metropolitan

4) well-to-do area.

5) switching ur mind off.

6) trained.

7) 8.57/hr... their idea is to take on workers for a retail certificate traineeship without actually training them. it costs less.

8) before tax.

[Guest reville]

1) Waiter

2) 20 -30

3) metropolitan

4) guess moderate

5) On the job training

6) already skilled

7) 13 (normal is 11 ~ 13)

8) before. legit

[gomaos]

1) Taxi Driver

2)48-72 hrs per week

3)metropolitan

4)metropolitan

5)license costs approx $150, can be made within a week

6)yes

7)10-12 Dollars, more on weekends

8)Before tax plus you have to pay fucken GST

Extremely unhealthy, always stuck in heavy traffic, breathing in poisonous fumes, you never get to move your body, stuck behind the wheel of a car for 12 hrs at a time, totally don't recommend it, stopped last year, let my license expire on purpose...

[Torsten]

thanks for all these. keep them coming.

It appears that our culture has changed in the last 15 years. When I last worked an unqualified casual job I remember that no one would consider working for less than award wages. It seems quite obvious from the replies here that this isn't the case anymore and that people take what they can get.

Another thing I noticed when checking these replies and the awards is that in the last 15 years the cost of basic living (rent & food) has easily doubled (in metro areas), while the awards have not. Given on top of that that people are willing to work for under award, this sheds a little light on why a third of the workforce works over 50 hours a week and australia has the third longest working week of the developed nations.

Amongst other social implications I wonder if this is a result of weaker unions or if Unions lost loyal followers cos they weren't getting a good deal anyway. Surely there has to be a pendulum effect and I am wondering if the pendulum is swinging back at the moment.

[coin]

in the past few weeks i've come across a couple of ppl who've just found out they've been underpaid for quite some time..in both cases they've been receiving award wage, but that of an award that had expired years ago..a lot of employers don't realise

[peas-pipe]

1) IT support (casual)

2) ~10 hours per week, hours flexible, work more when needed, work less when I'm busy with uni.

3) metropolitan.

4) not sure on demand of IT support people at the moment. Though, I think it'll always be high for people that can do the job.

5) competent with the specific hardware and software in use.

6) I have no formal qualifications, though I am currently at uni to achieve that. I learnt everything I need to know to do my current job while employed at my current job and previous jobs, mostly self taught.

7) $20/h

8) before tax.

[This message has been edited by peas-pipe (edited 31 July 2002).]

[shroomy]

Originally posted by Torsten:

thanks for all these. keep them coming.

It appears that our culture has changed in the last 15 years. When I last worked an unqualified casual job I remember that no one would consider working for less than award wages. It seems quite obvious from the replies here that this isn't the case anymore and that people take what they can get.

people take what they can get because the alternative is nothing and employees know it, they also know in todays competive world people will sell out their mates for a dollar so you iether work for this amount or joe blow over there will.

Another thing I noticed when checking these replies and the awards is that in the last 15 years the cost of basic living (rent & food) has easily doubled (in metro areas), while the awards have not.

you would have noticed when you checked theses awards that all of them have been stripped down to 20 clauses all thanks to little Johnies vision for a fair workplace.

Given on top of that that people are willing to work for under award, this sheds a little light on why a third of the workforce works over 50 hours a week and australia has the third longest working week of the developed nations.

Another popular ploy for employers is to employ a small amount of people who they suspect of being in financial trouble or they know are just plain bum lickers than negotiate (enforce) a enterprise bargain agreement that will cover the workplace. that way all further employees are placed under all of the conditions of that agreement

Amongst other social implications I wonder if this is a result of weaker unions or if Unions lost loyal followers cos they weren't getting a good deal anyway.

. Im sure in some cases the latter might be true. But its simply a fact that the few years of a libral goverment has seen awards stripped and basic employee rights abolished not to mention out right attacks on unions remember the Dubi thing with men in balaclavas and gaurd dogs., in a recent study it showed that only 20% of working australians are members of unions but when a pole was done asking workers from across the board "if you had a clear choice to belong to a union would you" 55% people answered yes. the reason why there are not 55% of people in unions is because of employer bullying and out right discrimination against unionists. to think that the average joe can walk into a bosses office and negotiate a fair and equitable agreement on there own is a joke. all of these larger companies employ human resouces officers(I hate that fucking term)who have gone to uni for years to learn the ins and outs of industrial law and than some poor bloke who left school in year nine is ment to walk in know what hes doing, guess who wins.

Surely there has to be a pendulum effect and I am wondering if the pendulum is swinging back at the moment.

I only hope your right and people relise that by sticking together you have a much louder and more powerful voice.Any one who thinks companies like Rio Tinto and ther ilk are really good guys with our interests at heart are fooling their selves and hurting everyone else along with them.I dont like properganda but to me this rings true "United we stand Divided we beg". "HEY BRING BACK THAT SOAPBOX" dam more latter.

[This message has been edited by shroomy (edited 31 July 2002).]

[This message has been edited by shroomy (edited 31 July 2002).]

[squiresk]

Speaking as a pure capitalist.. (prolly inviting derision here but anyway, here goes)

You do have a choice about where you work, and there is always the safety net of the dole. (Yeah, I know its not much but, keeps you alive)

I don't like blatant exploitation, but there are Laws to fall back on. America has got itself in deep shit, basically coz its been breaking/dihonestly interpreting the laws. Now they are suffering. What goes around, comes around.

If Torsten decides to pay slave labour wages to whoever, then he can't expect his projects to prosper. You are what you eat/employ etc..

As a shareholder in some (UK) compaines and shortly in CBA here, I am happy to see a company try and get as much profit etc. as possible. After all, this is what effecient market are all about. If a company does well, an employee does well, a student does well, whatever. they will tend to prosper.

We can't all live off others charity.

This drives progress. I'm against monopolies of course and artificial market influences of most kinds.

I dunno, lets take something like fishing quotas. In the UK, the North sea used to be teaming with Cod (your basic staple whitefish), now its deviod. These huge trawlers are have stripped everything. They are now going outta business, huge ships to maintain, no fish/cash to maintain them with. This is good. Now in an effecient market, the other/small niches open up, other species become popular. the smaller co's prosper trawling where the big chaps can't get to. Its a cycle, things change, and the ones that are the best at things prosper.

Nature (hopefully) catches up, and it leads to the folk who have a vested interest in anything to protect for their own futures, they learn to preserve and have a sustainable industry. I'm blabbing on, but anyway I see everything as a kinda of evolution.

If we fuck up this planet well die, but IT will bounce back.

I think every thing is like this, down to office politics, to companies, to industries, to countries, continents, whatever. Its always gonna happen, you just gotta live with it. If you feel you being taken advantage of, there a things you can do. Leave, better yourself, change jobs, whatever, Christ you have the the opportunities in this country.

Buy one share in an whaling fleet company/ vivsection company and use your vote. Don't like the bank fees or the fact they are shutting up shops everywhere, buy shares in them, let them pay you back, they'll earn more from you, so why not earn some shite from them.

l8r (from a possibly corporately brainwashed) Kai.

PS A bit of relevance here, I believe some laws (like the war on drugs ) to be an artificial market infleunce and they generally fail.

[G Dawg]

Originally posted by squiresk:

You do have a choice about where you work, and there is always the safety net of the dole.

If a company does well, an employee does well, a student does well, whatever. they will tend to prosper.

People do have a choice but someone will always have to do the shitty low paid jobs. These are the basic jobs that make the country run. They could stand up and demand a better wage only to have others willingly take their jobs as it better to work than not.

The only way to fix this would be to bring in slavery

Even if a company prospers this doesn't necessarily pass down to all of their employees. It helps to have good people in management to get happy empoyees.

Later.

[Darklight]

Originally posted by shroomy:

...in todays competive world people will sell out their mates for a dollar

Then they ain't yer mates.

Mind you, it wouldn't surprise me if the increase in emphasis on competitiveness leads long term to an erosion in interpersonal trust. Whatever happened the the notion of mutualism? Kropotkin, anyone?

[shroomy]

Originally posted by squiresk:

You do have a choice about where you work, and there is always the safety net of the dole (Yeah, I know its not much but, keeps you alive).[b/]

Right wheres that fucking soap box are here it tis. Tell that to a 40 year old man/woman who has a mortgage and three kids and has worked in the same job all of their lives.A lot of these affected people live in the country where there is often little or no choice as to employment oppertunities.

I don't like blatant exploitation, but there are Laws to fall back on.

These laws are being eroded everyday. take for instance MR Abotts latest bit of legislation before parliment where he asks that before any worker can strike they must first inform there employer and the industrial court of there intentions and than the employer may apply to have the strike made illeagle if it will affect hes buisness in any way. well hello but isnt that the point. people in this country seem to believe that all the good pay and work conditions were given to us WELL they fucking wernt they fought hard for by our fathers and granparants so as we could enjoy what we have now.

America has got itself in deep shit, basically coz its been breaking/dihonestly interpreting the laws. Now they are suffering. What goes around, comes around.

so shouldnt we learn from other peoples mistakes before anyone suffers the same thing here?.

If Torsten decides to pay slave labour wages to whoever, then he can't expect his projects to prosper. You are what you eat/employ etc..[b/]

I think i know the guy well enough to know he wouldnt do that. But there are plenty of employers who couldn,t give a rats arse about working conditions and will happily off anyone who doesnt tow the line there way.

As a shareholder in some (UK) compaines and shortly in CBA here, I am happy to see a company try and get as much profit etc. as possible. After all, this is what effecient market are all about. If a company does well, an employee does well, a student does well, whatever. they will tend to prosper.

so you are happy to see families struggle, people die at an early age due to overwork, communities torn apart because of excessive work hours and OUR whole standard of living lowered so you can recieve a bigger dividend on your shares .its true that companies need to make a profit or else they dissapear and take the jobs with them. But theres a difference between making a profit and screwing every one you can for another dollar. when i first started my current job the offer from the company was for half of what evreyone else in the valley was getting, we stood strong and told them politly to wake up to them selves.we then tabled what we believed to be a fair deal,after a short battle they accepted.two years latter the job expanded and employed another fifty people all on six figure salleries. obviously the amount they first tabled was all about increasing profit and nothing about survival becuase they readilly agree in the past five years they have made a tidy profit. everyone won the employer, us and the share holder all happy.

We can't all live off others charity.

A fair days work for a fair days pay thats all i ask.

I dunno, lets take something like fishing quotas. In the UK, the North sea used to be teaming with Cod (your basic staple whitefish), now its deviod. These huge trawlers are have stripped everything. They are now going outta business, huge ships to maintain, no fish/cash to maintain them with. This is good.

i fail to see how the destruction of a species can be defined as good

Now in an effecient market, the other/small niches open up, other species become popular.

Now we haved wiped out that speicies lets start on another and lets just keep going and hey if the fish arent important than why should the other non profit humans be.

the smaller co's prosper trawling where the big chaps can't get to. Its a cycle, things change, and the ones that are the best at things prosper.

And hopfully in the end we will have people going to see in canoes earning two fish and a kick in the ass a week for there trouble.

Nature (hopefully) catches up, and it leads to the folk who have a vested interest in anything to protect for their own futures, they learn to preserve and have a sustainable industry. I'm blabbing on, but anyway I see everything as a kinda of evolution.

so what you proposing is that we destroy everything except money(divedends remember)and than all will be better. surely we would be better off to reconise and fix these problems before they occur.

If we fuck up this planet well die, but IT will bounce back.

yes it prolly will but i for one would like my kids to see and enjoy it with same freedoms and rights as i have now.

I think every thing is like this, down to office politics, to companies, to industries, to countries, continents, whatever. Its always gonna happen, you just gotta live with it.

i cant remember whos story im quoting here but it goes like this.Several scientist got four monkey,s and placed them in a room with a bunch of bannanas in the middle. immieditly the monkey,s tried to eat the bannanas but they were hit with blasts of cold water every time they attemted to eat them.Eventually they gave up, at this point one monkey was removed and another new monkey was placed in the room this monkey of course headed straight for the bannanas but before he could get to the he was attacked by the other monkeys until he learnt not to eat the bannannas.once he learnt they would remove another original monkey and replace it with a new one. this went on until all the original monkeys that had been sprayed with water had been removed yet the other monkeys would still attack any new monkey who tried to eat the bannannas.Why because thats the things have always worked around here.

If you feel you being taken advantage of, there a things you can do. Leave, better yourself, change jobs, whatever, Christ you have the the opportunities in this country.

yes there are things you can do, Join a fucking union and tell the pricks they pay the right money and provide the right conditions or they go down the shit shoot with you.

Buy one share in an whaling fleet company/ vivsection company and use your vote.

now i know you are joking

Don't like the bank fees or the fact they are shutting up shops everywhere, buy shares in them, let them pay you back, they'll earn more from you, so why not earn some shite from them.

i like that one

l8r (from a possibly corporately brainwashed) Kai.

You think

[This message has been edited by shroomy (edited 01 August 2002).]

[Darklight]

Speaking as a pure capitalist.. (prolly inviting derision here but anyway, here goes)

Speaking as a pure capitalist myself ( who employs ppl whenever she can ) I don't believe that profits necessarily trickle down to workers at all levels. They should, but they usually don't.

Look at the corporate jokes being played out daily- CEOs on ridiculous wages, huge golden handshakes to fuckups who lose millions of dollars for a start... and wages are lower than ever at grass roots level

Having had a few ppl work for me, maybe ten, I'll happily re-employ maybe three or four of them, and darcy and mandragora are two of them. It would be cruel to say that the rest were outright hopeless, but try as I might I just couldn't get them motivated enough to understand the most basic instructions...like lock the lab up when you leave, or call me if you can't come in... In other environments perhaps they'd flourish better: I know I've performed better in some workplaces than others.

In a large organisation that's where shroomy's ( probably justifiably loathed ) HR person comes in. I've worked for big places with big budgets who don't have them, and may I say the results were at least as stupid and chaotic, budgets misspent, large sums allocated which ultimately went nowhere, corporate arselicking was a profitable hobby for some...

I think the trouble with most capitalism at

the moment is that short term gains are encouraged over long term. It's OK at the moment to grab a few squillion dollars, fuck a whole company over and then retire before your contract runs out. It's fine to pay people shit wages cos they *might* get better later on. Its just dandy to treat your employees like lobotomised monkeys because if you keep them at each others throats over that pay rise they won't notice you cutting corners on their rights. And then complain that there's no loyalty to your business anymore. Sheesh what a lame brained way to run an economy...

You do have a choice about where you work

I wish that were true. Where you work depends on a certain amount of luck as much as it does your skills and attitude. Whether you are able have mobility in your options re career and finances depends largely on your position both current and past. If you've just had an industrial accident at work and they're not accepting responsibility even tho the evidence is clear, and you have a mortgage and a family to support then its probably naiive to think you can just up your income by getting that new job as CEO of NRMA

and there is always the safety net of the dole. (Yeah, I know its not much but, keeps you alive)

Matey have you lived on the dole? For how long? It's a pittance, it barely keeps a roof over your head let alone food and bills. And the amount of time you are expected to waste and the brick walls you run into when trying for creative solutions to your dilemma simply to maintain your embarrassingly low benefits is a direct disincentive to make any major changes for your future because you're usually under huge financial and beaurocratic pressure and can't think beyond your next power bill or rego cheque.

I'd happily lose all the money spent on useless bloody dole-nazi pogroms designed to make sure no poor person so much as scrapes the price of a feed without it coming off their benefit plus a huge fine if they neglected to mention it. Frankly society would be much better off giving ppl on benefits at least an extra $50 a week- but then we'd have hundeds of case managers and former Centrelink employees wandering the streets and society just isn't ready for that yet.

I was on the dole, off and on, for maybe eight years. Towards the end they treated me like I was a fucking criminal... and more often than not were lying through their teeth to try to prove their point. Thank heavens a friend took me aside and guided me to a new career path, and I got a job at the local uni. Now I work for myself.

If Torsten decides to pay slave labour wages to whoever, then he can't expect his projects to prosper.

If that were a general truism most major corporations would be eating shit. You're kidding.

Buy one share in an whaling fleet company/ vivsection company and use your vote.

That worked in the 70's and early 80's. And while its a valid tactic its not enough on its own any more to affect change- boards expect it!

PS As a pure capitalist I'll probably never be rich. I have too many research projects to fund and a long list of ppl I absolutely must take to lunch or otherwise repay all the help they've given me. Capitalism is one thing, greed is quite another. They are not necessarily symonymous

I can hear shroomy grinding his teeth, I might go and see if he's on Chilli Sauce

[gomaos]

Yeah right I just can't help myself to give my 2 cents here, even if I know that most ppl will just ignore it:

Darklight a pure capitalist?

Very disappointing...

So you weren't being cynical when you said in one of your old posts, that you felt sorry when that old mostrosity John Bjelke Petersen finally got the kick in the butt he so long deserved that landed him on the rubbish pile?

In my opinion that bastard should have been cut into little pieces while still alive...

(quote j. B. Petersen, 70s or 80s: "The farmers should shoot the bloody hippies when they walk on their paddocks looking for magic mushrooms...")

Bit of topic but...

So squiresk has some shares?

Well doh now we all have to embrace the capitalist system, hey?

To hell with the whales, support their killers?

Destroy the planet, it'll fix itself?

Fuck the poor, they've had their chance?

I'd say fuck the rich, they've been running things far too long!

Disown everyone who owns more than a certain amount money, say, 1 Million Dollars, Us or Aussie, and give it to the poor...

Sounds dumb?

Well, ONE DAY it may just happen...

The fucken capitalists can't go on raping this world forever!

[Darklight]

Originally posted by gomaos:

Darklight a pure capitalist?

Very disappointing...

Why? I'm a mutualist. I do well, everyone around me does. S'not like I'm selfish

So you weren't being cynical when you said in one of your old posts,

Get that first cup of coffee into you before you post sweetie of course I was joking The only sad thing about Joh going was the fact that millions of unborn Australians will never know why we found Max Gillies so funny ( he used to do a shit-hot Joh impersonation )

Well doh now we all have to embrace the capitalist system, hey?

Did anyone say that but you?

[gomaos]

Oh and don't get me wrong:

I don't see anything false with having a good job and earning plenty of money.

My proof: I totally support Shroomy's view, even if he earns at least five times as much as I do.

I am totally against the control of people and the system by money.

Money can do a lot of good, everybody knows that.

And money can do a lot of bad also, that is when only individuals interested in personal profit and profit for their company decide who to employ and who not.

Best example:

Before the fucken conservative government got in, that 1996 and before, the government employment agency, which was then called CES (some ppl may remember) had subdivisions in city areas called "casual ces".

You could go there in the morning at 7 am and most of the time you would wind up with a job for the day, or for 3 days, for a week, or even months.

THIS WAS WITHOUT RESUME, REGARDLESS OF AGE (as long as able to work), EVERYBODY WOULD GET A JOB!

Now the libs got rid of this, and gave it all to private employment agencies.

The private employment agencies today GET PAID FOR EVERY UNEMPLOYED WHO IS REFERRED TO THE THEM which doesn't mean this person will get a job.

Resume and age or very important.

Fucken Sarina Russo get paid $5000 to look after you(!), but that doesn't mean you get a job, if they don't like you.

That's exactly what happened to me.

They never did anything.

Now that's capitalism for you!

[gomaos]

mmmmmmmmm...this is my 3rd day of tobacco withdrawal, and my 7th week of alcohol-withdrawal...

I'm totally charged....

[gomaos]

Originally posted by Darklight:

Get that first cup of coffee into you before you post sweetie of course I was joking

mkay perculating that second 4 cup pot right now....

(I'm a coffee-addict-speed-freak you know

(wasn't there something else i had to do this morning instead of sittin in front of this glaring screen?....)

[This message has been edited by gomaos (edited 01 August 2002).]

[Darklight]

Total sympathy on the baccy thing gom, last time I gave up I got so hyped I couldn't stand myself, but good on you, one day I shall get there myself I hope. Congratulations cob

CES by any other name...never had any luck with the CES either. Took an arvo off a casual job to sit round at the CES years ago cos they wouldn't let me make an appt, cost me 4 hours pay. Wanted to apply for a job I knew they had coming up, had the registration details and ref #'s blah blah.

When my number was called an hour and a half later the moron at the desk said " Oh, can't help you, you'll have to come back ...computers are down".

"See the flat white thing in front of you?" I said " That's a piece of paper...and the skinny thing next to it is a pen. Here are all the reference numbers and contact details, here's my phone number, when your computers are back up match them all up and get back to me, I can't afford to take time off my casual job to waste hanging round here "

Needless to say they didn't get back to me and I had to take another afternoon off work to sort it.

The only time the CES or their ilk did anything for me was when I got this brilliant case manager. I told her if she didn't waste my time making me do stupid courses for which I was already overqualified then I'd probably stand a chance to find a decent job. It worked too

[Torsten]

"Pure Capitalists"???? do you people actually know what you're talking about??

You think that this includes

* owning a few shares in a company??

* putting your hard earned money into AMP investments??

* working for a wage??

* or even being the CEO of Telstra??

you're deluding yourself. This has nothing to do with capitalism.

Capitalism is when you have capital. Owning a few shares in a company does not give you capital. The there is no real value behind it cos if some prick makes the wrong decision then your moneh is gone. You're simply a apwn who provides cash so the big boys can play with it.

Putting your money into a managed fund also ins't capitalism for the same reasons.

Working for a wage..... yes, they would like you to believe this is capitalism. Put is it your money?? All you're getting is the crumbs while others higher up pocket the capital.

Even the CEO of a multinational is generally NOT a capitalist. He has very little capital and is merely a manager for other people's money.

So what is a capitalist?? By definition it is someone who has capital and has control over it and via that control can increase the amount of capital. The only way to achieve this is ownership. 'Owning' shares isn't ownership, cos you have bugger all control. Evr noticed how about half of all shares in most multinationals are owned by a handful of people. These people have the control and they merely sold you a few shares so they can play with your money. In most companies your vote counts for shit.

Notable exception are small (or even some big) mutuals. But check out their company structure first and you will find that many of them are also controlled by a few.

So how do you become a real capitalist?? Put your mony where you have control over it. Where you determine what is does and where it increases the value of itself and your community. In todays market it is all about profit and sucking money out of communities. case in point telstra. Once it is sold the service will decline and the bush will be left with nothing. if anyone needs a good reason to stop privatisations, then go and have a look at europe. Many countries are bittelry regretting privatising their services, most of all the british with their fucked up rail system. So what is the advanatge of earning a few dollars from your railtrack shares, if the whole system collapses, people die and the goverment then has to pay billions to bail the system out.

To become a true capitalist you have to keep your money and investments at arms length. YOu need to know that it is not being used to hurt people and you need to make sure it build the community around you. Only that way will you increase capital. Putting your money into telstra will NOT improve the community. It will not make you money that you have any control over where it came from. Essentially you will need to ask yourself do you feel comfortable taking money from the people in the bush, pensioners, disadvantaged people. Does this make you feel better. Do you have any control over this??

And after 10 or 20 years you have to ask yourself, did you contribute to the fact that the bush then lives on government charities (via your tax dollar), that people have died because they didn't receive adequate communication services, and that the Singaporian government owned Optus Network is now the only way you can communicate (cos they had a better business plan). With a bit of luck all this will bite you in the ass. Maybe you lost your job and had to take a crappy position in some remote mining ghost town, where you now can't access the internet anymore and your stellite phone cost you half you weekly wages to run. Will you remember what YOUR capitals did then?? Are you really better of?? Are you really a capitalist??

I have nothing against real capitalists. They enrich the local community as they know that this will in turn increase their own capital and that of the people in their community. A true capitalist system is where the workers own the whole company they work in. They make the decisions, they get the money they produce and they increase their capital. These workers are more likely to work harder, weather hard times with mutual support, will not pull out of their local area, will not let their community down and will always maintain the capital rather than taking it out of the country.

Most people who call themselves capitalists today are brainwashed not simply in regards to believeing in capitalism, but actually in believing something that is not capitalism.

[This message has been edited by Torsten (edited 01 August 2002).]

[gomaos]

Hmmm...

CES and CASUAL CES

might have to do some explaining, since most ppl don't know "CASUAL CES"

The initial "CES" was pretty hopeless and never did none for me.

Just as pictured by Darklight.

The "Casual CES" however was one of the most employee-friendly Employment-Services in the world.

It worked like this:

Before 7 am jobless and moneyless ppl would line up in front of the office (only available in big cities)

At 7 the doors would open and the jobseekers could have a look at the boards etc.

Employers would start calling in and say:

I need 3 people to clean toilets.

The 3 first in line would get the jobs, regardless of age or (MF)resume.

Then more employers would ring in with more vacancies.

This may have only been jobs for a day or 2, but sometimes for months.

if you didn't have a job at 9 am you'd go home.

If any more employers rang, the casual ces would ring you at home and give it to you.

Or you'd try the next day.

This was very jobseeker-friendly, because if you needed money, you'd line up, if you didn't, you'd stay home and let someone else get it.

You would always wind up with some sort of a job.

Then Howard came and said:

This is non-profitable for the Government.

I don't want to pay CES-employees to get up at 6 am just so some hobos get a job.

Howard then destroyed the CES altogether and gave it to rip-off private organisations like "Sarina Russo", i.e. paying them to find ppl work.

Well if you play along with them and suck their ass, they may find you jobs.

But if they don't like they just tell you to f...off. They can do that because they're private businesses.

The CES had to help you because they were government-run and it was their duty.

Yes, you can complain about private job agencies.

I've done that and Sarina Russo continues to prosper anyway.

The Casual CES may not have been totally in the interest of Government and Employers, but they were very good for the poor.

Now Howard has spoiled all that.

Which means if you aren't what those damn private job agencies want you to be, you'll never get a job.

To hell with that system.