Spaceshuttle blown to bits

[Torsten]

It's a sad day for space exploration. As only the US currently does much in this field, this disaster will once again delay further advances in space.

But maybe it is also a good thing not to have the US as the leader in space travel. Given the general dislike for the USA at the moment, and their ever increasing megalomania, we need to ask ourselves if we really want the US to control space and space flight. The last thign we need is for the US to colonise other planets and fuck them up the way they are fucking earth up.

When will the US learn about making risky political statements. More often than not they blow up back in their face (or in this case over a 300mile stretch). Put a political statement on the columbia and any disaster will also undermine the political statement. Spacetravel should be for scientists, not for politics!!

[nabraxas]

a sad day indeed. i was most upset to loose those spiders. i thought they'd rely on gravity to orient themselves when web spinning; but apparently (we'll never know now) they were making webs w/less effort & more dimensions.

i think spacetravel is much too important to the future ov Life to be left to the devices ov any 1 group. NASA should be alot more open & democratic.

"we were born to go"

[spikey]

man it's not funny

i'm from israel and the first israeli space travler or how ever u call it was on board, and a friend of mine was a relative of his...

i agree us should control anything but still, this is not a chance to make anger on them, not over some peoples death

[Slarty Fart Blaster]

 

quote:

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i agree us should control anything but still

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Did you know this

 

quote:

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"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

 

- Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3rd 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio.

 

---

If you want change then maybe you are in the best position to do this.

[woof woof woof]

looks like I haven't beenexposed to any form of media broadcasting world news lately.....

it's sad,..... I however hope that this tragidy lets some of them leaders focus more inwards...

[gomaos]

Originally posted by brian:

it's sad,..... I however hope that this tragidy lets some of them leaders focus more inwards

I doubt that those leaders (i.e.Bush and his goons)even know what that is (focussing inwards)

Now they'll cut whatever maybe left of welfare in the us(if any) to build a new space shuttle...

[faustus]

NASA = Need Another Seven Astronauts

oh no, now we may never know if ants can assemble tiny screws in space!

as much as people question the validity of space programs when there are more important things closer to home i think that space exploration is an important outward focus to an inward question. and i agree, keep the politics out -- in space we should be representatives of humanity, not our own political agendas.

[spiders]

Death is always sad, but im sure we all understand that space travel is not without risk. Especially when you consider the technologies involved.

I think the space program makes a mockery of what is really important in the world. Every time a first world nations lunches something into space they are using up a large amount capitalism's most valuable resource - being money. While money is wasted on a program that we dont really need, many thousands of starving and impoverished people have to do without so that the first world can make insignificant scientific 'break-throughs.'

I dont know how some people can live with the fact that while they send a few pieces of metal into space for Billions of US dollars, three thousand people spend their days sifting through rubbish and shit for scraps to eat in Calcutta.

As for Israel controlling the US. That has been demonstrated by every doctrine of US Middle East foreign policy post WWII - even during the cold war, where USSR threatened the continued existence of Israel many times.

[Darklight]

 

quote:

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I think the space program makes a mockery of what is really important in the world.

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I completely agree with you on that. The resources- both financial and environmental- could be much better placed in the absence of the bread and circus mentality that feeds the space program. We're encouraged to care- its practically shoved down our throats so that we take on enthusiasm for projects we're well and truly distant from and it reminds me of someone yelling " Look, over there, there's Elvis " to distract us from other more valid and immediate concerns

Even if the funds were diverted to other research projects- such as decent scientific education for all ages, or non-commercial projects which are practically ignored in the current climate of profit driven research, we'd surely see more for our science $ than the space program can ever hope to offer. What is it really costing us, I wonder?

[Rev]

bluemeanie:

Every time a first world nations lunches something into space they are using up a large amount capitalism's most valuable resource - being money.

three thousand people spend their days sifting through rubbish and shit for scraps to eat in Calcutta.

.

I dont agree. Capitalism, that is, a fair and honest interpretation of of what that means would see the world in a vastly separate situation than it is in now.

Firstly there wouldnt be the problems of deforestation, Pollution and massive debt because the kind of exploitation that occurs when foreign capital meets people with no secure title to what obviously is theirs, whether it be the Aboriginals in Australia or the Dayaks of Borneo. You can take your title deed to the bank here and borrow against it to improve your business or educate your children, the biggest problem indigenous peoples and people in developing countries face is that they cannot do this, despite having obvious ownership of the land they live on

Capitalism runs on Confidence and in partiular the confidence in ownership that motivates people to work for that ownership, and to develop and conserve assets

If people legally own their environment then they can enter into loan and cooperative projects to develop their capital - and the ownership implies that gross exploitation like clearfelling is detrimental.

This can be demonstrated in places where communities take title of their environment seriously and manage it democratically. Like Councils in environmentally aware areas, or even in suburbs with high home ownership rates. In situations like these yull find great opposition to most forms of exploititive development.

If Land title reform suddenly became the key word in the developing world i think youd find that the 'Poorer' nations wouldnt turn out to be as poor as they seem

Theres more of them, they know there is no future in poverty and they dont mind a bit of hard work and cooperation - if they really have that 'Capitalist confidence' and so a guarantee that the work they do will be rewarding.

So i think what the Capitalist system really relies on is confidence and ownership, the latter being a legal formality and the former a symptom of the former.

We could alleviate so many problems so simply - but as the west profits greatly from this inequality i cant see this changing.

Secondly about the beggars. Theres not a grea deal you can do about that (except giving them the legal rights to the dump and allowing them to start a recycling empire

Its a very deep social problem in India. But to them its not a problem.

The whole system relies on belief in Hinduism, that your current status is your own fault for bad deeds in the past. If you are lame, poor or suffer great misfortune then essentailly you cant blame anyone but yourself

And likewise the rich see no imperative to help beacuse poverty is in a sense seen as self inflicted.

And there is a different circle of time operating too. There is no one life, so the urgency to get yourself out of your current predicament is seen as a generally less important than making sure you are a good hindu and this doesnt happen again

Its sick and its beautiful. On one hand there is so much misery, but on the other, It doesnt matter as much because it is just one in the many turns of the wheel and you can believe that if you are good you too will be rich oneday. If your at the botom and beleive in the 'steady advance' hypothesis then its all quite cheery really.

Whereas if you have one life only and dont believe in an afterlife or on one wholly dependant on adherence to social custom ... You'd revolt god dammit!

One other point...

Today 6 Americans died and one Israeli

and the world mourns

In the month of march more than 300 000 Iraqi civilians will die

We will be able to fairly judge our own humanity by the response...

[t st tantra]

i see this as another example of the failure of american technology.

in every conflict the usa participates,more of its troops[and even more friendlies] are killed by falure of its technologies than by any enemy.

the us produces most of the worlds armaments anyway,i imagine once every one has enough its in their interests to have a war so everyone uses their weaponds and must buy more from the us,boom time for us economy.

how much will the us arms supliers make from australias involvement in iraq?

t s t .

[woof woof woof]

Thank you for elaborating Rev. Word... word!

So you all belonging to this shaman's sect.... ,when do we begin to dream up some confidence to invest in.....? :cool:

[nabraxas]

yep rev hits the nail on the head.

if the worlds resources were all distributed equally, we could all be riding in hydrogen fueled rolls royces, but that's not going to happen. yes the space program seems wasteful, but you have to appreciate the returns you don't see- solar panels, GPS, fuel cells, to name a few.

to pick on the most obvious drain on resources, isn't always the best target. banks & pokies drain a heck ov alot more from peoples pockets than the space program, yet they come in for alot less criticism- everyone accepts the lie that we NEED a banking system.

there are beggars in mumbai, & yet 90% ov india's wealth is there. india has a nuclear missile program- yet electricity in dehli is (still) erratic.- is that NASA's fault?

& to think about spending on technology in general- should we bother to spend money researching ways to 'heal' babies born with defects? shouldn't nature be left to run it's course? or what about the millions spent on a cure for lung cancer?- it seems to be mainly a lifestyle choice disease, why not just let the smokers suffer & spend the money on starving kids?

none ov those questions needs answering.

the cure for world poverty is not an end to spending, but an end to profit.

[gomaos]

Originally posted by reville:

Secondly about the beggars. Theres not a grea deal you can do about that (except giving them the legal rights to the dump and allowing them to start a recycling empire

Totally disagree with you here, rev.

There's a lot to be done here, first of all get rid of the stinking caste-system in India.

Secondly, make all the rich people pay more taxes so the poor people can get the dole.

That goes not just for India, but for all 3rd world nations. I'm very surprised you are so pro-capitalist, rev.

Its a very deep social problem in India. But to them its not a problem.

Rubbish! It may not be a problem for the wealthy,but those on the other end suffer a great deal.

I spent all together almost a year in India, north and south. I've seen mothers lying on the street, hitting their babies with rocks, so they would be crippled and better beggars.

not a big problem? Well, D'oohh!

The whole system relies on belief in Hinduism, that your current status is your own fault for bad deeds in the past. If you are lame, poor or suffer great misfortune then essentailly you cant blame anyone but yourself

And likewise the rich see no imperative to help beacuse poverty is in a sense seen as self inflicted.

Yeah right. it would be best to fuck off hinduism and replace it with communism!

You don't seriously believe that Karma-Crap, do you?

And there is a different circle of time operating too. There is no one life, so the urgency to get yourself out of your current predicament is seen as a generally less important than making sure you are a good hindu and this doesnt happen again

Its sick and its beautiful. On one hand there is so much misery, but on the other, It doesnt matter as much because it is just one in the many turns of the wheel and you can believe that if you are good you too will be rich oneday. If your at the botom and beleive in the 'steady advance' hypothesis then its all quite cheery really.

Whereas if you have one life only and dont believe in an afterlife or on one wholly dependant on adherence to social custom ... You'd revolt god dammit!

Yeah garbage again. With this brainwashing the rich in India have kept their "untouchables" at bay for thousands of years.

It's time for them (the rich) to pay the bill, if need to, with their blood!

Does anyone here REALLY believe in Karma and Rebirth? If so, you are all masters of delusion.

[Rev]

Gomaos i think ill just clear up a few things

No i do not believe in the same set of social rules, customs and ideals as are held by the Indian peoples

No i do not believe in Rebirth, at least the dogma of Hinduism or Buddhism preaches

That said i also dont believe that the rich in india are responsible for the poors belief

and the truth is that all castes suffer under the burden of their birthright

Who they may marry, what occupation they may fill etc etc it is an intensely rigid form of society

And i can totally see why it was abandoned By the pakistanis and bangladeshis in favour of Islam which prohibits the caste system

I think you need to rexamine your approach as well

Making Indias rich pay more taxes sure - but make them care? i dont think you can make anyone care - especially if there is a deeply held belief that life is inextinguishable no matter how depraved it gets.

You - especially a foreign influence - can have very little influence on what happens in domestic indian politics.

Like a family they have to sort it out themselves for it to mean anything

The attitude that we can march in and change these countries is incredibly arrogant

There are somewhere in the order of a billion Indians and 20 million Australians

and theyre a major economic power and justifiably proud of their history and way of doing things.

Saying we should do away with Hinduism because it doesnt fit in with our system of values

is like Bush saying hell take pre-emptive military action and initiate 'regime change' whenever he feels like it

I dont think The Post-colonial powers get the concept of minding their own business, well we know they dont given the current world state.

Its all good to say India should be communist but to do so would mean social collapse, milions starving and bloody retribution for all

India will change, it is changing, but on its own terms - its got a 400 year colonial hangover and its done a hell of a lot in under 60 years of existence- which included a civil war - despite economic and political racism and discrimination. And its got guts and self-determination - unlike the leadership of this country

Take Ghandis example and see just how progressive India can be and how much we have to learn. You can have quiet revolutions where no blood spills - because all generations die and they take a lot of bad habits with them each time if society decides it wants to progress

Do you ever hear much in the news of a state in India called Kerala? Probably not

But we should

[gomaos]

Originally posted by reville:

I think you need to rexamine your approach as well

Making Indias rich pay more taxes sure - but make them care?

Oh that would make them care...nothing would make them care more than having to pay more taxes...

You - especially a foreign influence - can have very little influence on what happens in domestic indian politics.

I never thought I would have any influence on anyone...i just have an opinion

The attitude that we can march in and change these countries is incredibly arrogant

i never suggested that.

Saying we should do away with Hinduism because it doesnt fit in with our system of values

is like Bush saying hell take pre-emptive military action and initiate 'regime change' whenever he feels like it

I didn't mean WE should do away with hinduism,

I meant THEY should do away with it themselves

Its all good to say India should be communist but to do so would mean social collapse, milions starving and bloody retribution for all

India is ALREADY socially collapsed, hasn't been any different for a long time, and there have been starving millions for ages

Do you ever hear much in the news of a state in India called Kerala? Probably not

Kerala is a state on the West Coast of India south of Goa.

Many people talked about it when we were there, regrettably we didn't visit there at the time.

What was the special thing about Kerala again?

[Rev]

i guess this belongs in another thread but here goes...

Kerala is a democratically elected socialist state in India

Basically its a capitalist market economy but the socialist ideal of healthcare, education (for both sexes) and welfare is followed - it shows a a stark contrast to the rest of india and is a favourite for sustainable development case studies showing how responsible governance like this can do marvellous things

But i insist that Only private affluence (and a democratic parliament) can prevent public squalor - as i heard today on the radio re Gough whitlams term in the 70's

A healthy dose of socialism isnt at odds with capitalism - some things are just too important to leave to market forces.

You take away property rights and everything gets ruined - Soviets

You take away all government support and society crumbles - USA (they still charge bloody taxes though!)

Somewhere in the middle is my bet

[jetblack]

On the lighter side, I saw a caption on a newsbar saying:

Dozens of Texas residents hospitalised after handling shuttle debris

Muwhahaha, dumbarse Texans.

[gerbil]

when i heard if you pick up pieces of the craft, you may get quite sick because of a substance that it is coated in...didn't have a problem with that, but then they went on to say, anyone doing so or taking bits will be proscecuted to the full extent of the law.

So the people become ill because of fallen pieces, and they are then charged?, fair enough to an extent if people try to cash in on it, but otherwise its pathetic

Yes the government really cares about the health of the society... :confused:

[RonnySimulacrum]

Sorry you died for your imperialist governments.

I would not say that space travel would not have its advantages, but I think it can sometimes be a form of hope for governments that already know that they have no intention of trying to regenerate owe own planet. And also need some other non-military technological developing gazer.---did I just say non-military.

We should be focusing all of owe resources, energy and info crunching to benefiting the present ecological and social suffering of the planet. When that is stabilized or on the mend then we can think of these other worldly things. But unlikely there is a lot of governments in the would that have vested interest in the space programs, the same governments that will just happen to be able to flee this plant one day when there is nothing left for them to use or sell.

Innerspace first-----then you may see that you do not even need outerspace

[nabraxas]

i am a self confessed conspiracy nut, but the idea that an elite ov leaders is using the space program, because they've given up on planet earth, a la ben elton's stark; is a bit too much. i don't think anyone wants to swap planet earth for battlestar galactica. i agree we must focus resources on healing the planet, but space research is part ov that.

it's NASA that's doing leading research into 'green' fuels- they are currently exploring replacing aluminium solid fuel w/a non-toxic paraffin based fuel that produces only carbon dioxide & water.

we only know a fraction ov the dynamic nature ov our atmosphere, so we learn more about it & the hole in the ozone layer by watching it from satellites.

solar energy has been made a practicality by NASA & the potential for setting up solar collecters in orbit could solve all the earths energy demands.

lastly there is a spiritual aspect. this IS mother earth- the womb planet. we are her offspring, & it IS our future to continue to depart from her & spread her love through the stars.

[woof woof woof]

reville:

Gomaos i think ill just clear up a few things

No i do not believe in the same set of social rules, customs and ideals as are held by the Indian peoples

No i do not believe in Rebirth, at least the dogma of Hinduism or Buddhism preaches

Little off topic maybe...

I do believe in karma/rebirth. Simply because all is energy, what we give is what we get... it even gets written in our genes....

I think it is all about dissoliving slowly into everything...... starting by finding eternal psychedelic bliss within and never letting go, of that flow... hehe...

[RonnySimulacrum]

nabraxas did you miss the line that said I was speaking about the topic of my next novelette?

[spiders]

And I dont agree with many of the points raised in these posts.

I raised India because I happened to be watching something regarding it the day i posted. The caste Hindu system isnt the only issue at play in the division of Indian Society and ofcourse it cannot be blaimed for the majority of situations in other third world nations.

The issue is that capitalism is based on greed. To obtain as much capital as possible. Its a first in best dressed scenario. It isnt unfair because of land title, it is unfair because it is based on competition for resources to 'capitalise' from the economic return of exploiting these resources. Because these resources are limited in availablity, this limits the access to these resources.

Therefore some are able to gain more economic returns from their access to resources than others.

First world nations have exploited there own resources to such an extent that they can afford - for political reasons - to set up a welfare state and a set of 'corporate ethics' in their own nations.

However they have not made any attempt to adopt these ethics when exploiting the resources of poorer nations that are unable to do so themselves.

Because they have been able to capitalise from their own resources economically and have hoarded this wealth, they have been able to wield ecomomic power over other nations that havent adopted the 'material wealth defines who you are' ethic and have not rushed to manipulate and hoard their own resources.

At the end of the day the first world has made it impossible for third world nations to ever compete with their wealth. Firstly currency valuation and dollar floating has been based exclusively on each nations ability to capilitalise on its resources. If a poorer nation has no resources to exploit, or does not have the means to exploit the resources, the first world either goes and exploits its resourcses for it, capitalising on cheaper costs and labor, or suggest economic reform that requires large loans from the first world to fund.

Theses loans are provided in ever increasingly valued currency with ridiculously high interest components.

Because at the same time the nation is unable to obtain higher economic returns than the losses pouring out to pay back their loans, their economies are never able to compete. ANd if they dont reform, foreign investment takes all the benefits that their resources could have provided them.

These investors enter these countries with paternalistic attitudes, and flaunt their wealth in front of the poor locals.

As an example in Indonesia, foreign investors drive around in expensive cars tooting the poor populace with contempt to get out of the way. Their attitude to the poor in foreign countries is indifferent - they dont adopt any type of welfare ethic in foreign nations that they exploit. The locals who become economically wealthly follow suit. They likewise see rich foreigners not caring so mirror this attitude when they become wealthy.

In most third world nations you have a few very rich and completely indifferent locals igonring the starving masses - but they are only following the foriegn investors attitude.

Regarding the space program, sure there is significant use for some projects - satellites and other telecommunications requirements, but space stations and manned missions costing billions to send spiders into space are not morally sound as they are completely unnecessary.

I too can provide you with a wealth of statistical figures, but its clouds the real issue. The manned space program - shuttles and space stations is another way that the US rubs its wealth in the poors faces.

Our space station is worth more than your starving children.

Lastly - the quote 'it is profit and not spending that has caused the worlds problems' is not economically sound. Remember supply and demand?

There is always limited supply and the worlds resources would not sustain this kind of ethic.

The only way to rectify many of the world's issues is for the west to recognize and acknowledge its debt to the third wealth. It wouldnt be as wealthy had it not exploited the third world.

It is a moral obligation for the third world to provide and sustain welfare states in all third world nations and disvolve thirdworld debt.

[nabraxas]

bluemeanie:

.

Lastly - the quote 'it is profit and not spending that has caused the worlds problems' is not economically sound. Remember supply and demand?

There is always limited supply and the worlds resources would not sustain this kind of ethic..

that doesn't hold true in all circumstances. it is capitalist economic THEORY(as in an on-going experiment w/your wellbeing) & capitalists have rigged the supply side in their favour while artificially creating demand for their useless & wasteful products.

the EU has wine lakes, butter mountains & dumps grain into the sea because they got their theory wrong & have an oversupply, which would push the price too low if they released it on the market -or even sold it cheap to russia.

"the free market" theory ov lassiez faire economics- which most govts have been forced to follow since selling off all their primary producers- is a blueprint which no govt(let alone big business) has the heart to follow 'all the way' so they are fudgeing it as they go.

limited resources are to some extent a myth.

 

bluemeanie:

.It is a moral obligation for the third world to provide and sustain welfare states in all third world nations and disvolve thirdworld debt.

- do you mean it's a moral obligation for the third world to dissolve their own debt?, ie- refuse to pay it (which i could live with)

or do you mean it's also a moral obligation for the first world to dissolve 3rd world debt?(which is ok, but i prefer the first option )

& ronnie sim- sorry i'm very dense & no good at reading between the lines

[ 07. February 2003, 08:10: Message edited by: nabraxas ]