Ants and Banisteriopsis caapi

[Change]

Ive noticed ants seam to enjoy crawling on the vine.

This afternoon i decided to spent some time watching them and seeing what they get up to.

It seams they enjoy checking up on these tiny yellow dots at the base of the leaves

What do you think....

[Sallubrious]

I'm sure Planthelper has a thread on this somewhere.

The ants are attracted to and feed on the basal glands at the bottom of the petioles.

[tipz]

the yellow dots are extrafloral nectaries, The plants secretes a sugary nectar to attract the ants, and in return the ants protect the plant from predators ( that's my understanding anyway ) very cool !

this thread should answer some questions for you DTB

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30026&hl=%2Bants+%2Bcaapi

Edited January 21, 2013 by tipz

[Horus]

well thats all coincidental I was watching ants on my vine this arvo.

now I will watch more carfully what they are up to.

[alkaloidal]

the yellow dots are extrafloral nectaries, The plants secretes a sugary nectar to attract the ants, and in return the ants protect the plant from predators ( that's my understanding anyway ) very cool !

this thread should answer some questions for you DTB

http://www.shaman-australis.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=30026&hl=%2Bants+%2Bcaapi

That's cool!

I feel bad now for knocking them off, I thought they were terrorizing it.

[poisonshroom]

Eh - getting rid of them isnt such a bad thing either though, here they usually farm sap sucking insects rather than protect the plants from predators (apart from me when I get too close ). Id say in their natural habitat there are different species of ants that do a different job, but here they are more of a problem then anything

[Change]

Thanks for the link Tipz

It would be nice to think that ants could be having a spiritual experience from the extrafloral nectaries which may change their path to become guardian of the vine

[Micromegas]

Yeah as poisonshroom says I don't think it's necessarily a good thing, but if there is no damaging occurring it could be a plus. I have an ant problem with anadenathera columbrina in particular and it's all kinds of frustrating. I have about 6 2-foot seedlings in the ground and the ants crawl all over them and in particular around the leaf bases where I assume there are nectaries. As the ants move onto each new leaf/petiole the leaf base goes black and the otherwise green and healthy leaf falls off. I don't know if they are just biting and sucking the plant and injecting formic acid or just simply damaging the tissue, or if they are farming aphids, but i think the first. It's really damaging otherwise healthy and vigorous plants and especially causes issues at the meristem, constantly taking out the growing tip. At first I thought it was cool, ants on the cebil, but it's become an irritation. So enjoy your ants if they are just chillin but inspect to see if any damage may be occurring as well.

[mindperformer]

I was sure that I made a thread about ant-symbioses but I don't find it again... however

I also observed this (ant?-) extrafloral nectaries on my Piper betle (thin leaf). I think they contain sugars. To my opinion they are made for symbiotic ants, which protect the plant from pests, which they do.

on Piper betle:

From Wikipedia (Piper):

...a few Piper species commonly called "ant pipers" (e.g. Piper cenocladum).

And of course my Banisteriopsis has the same nectaries which attract many ants in summer and no pests ever.

on caapi:

In the Amazon rainforest such a symbiosis is common. An extreme example are the devil's gardens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil's_garden

Edited January 22, 2013 by mindperformer

[indigo264nm]

Ants are usually a symptom of an insect pest that produces honeydew, like mealy bugs and soft scale and perhaps aphids. They rely on the ants to carry the young from the soil to the leaves.

[mindperformer]

this is also true, but my betle and caapi never had insect pests and the nectaries are definitely produced by the plants

[ptilotus]

Neem oil is a great way to stop ants from getting on to your plants. Its a natural oil from Neem trees. They seem to hate it and avoid it at all costs so you can just paint some around the base of the plant or where ever you see the ants are coming from. Worst case you can spray it onto the plant if the infestation is bad.. Hope this helps a bit with your ant problems.

[gtarman]

^^^ I used to use cinnamon, ants hate that as well. Just sprayed a ring around the outside of a pot with water, then dusted on the cinnamon which would stick to the wet pot and form a barrier that was mostly ant-proof

[mindperformer]

did you look at what the ants do on the plants? maybe you have different ant species, but the ants on my plants never did any harm to the plant and also never cultivated pests. Tey only feeded on the nectaries and defended the plants from pests,

so I would never kill these wonderful creatures.

It is also possible that they ave their nest in the soil of the pot. My Ornithogalum had one in the pot and it was growing much better because it was fertilized by the ants and had better drainage. The ants did not feed on the roots.

Edited February 2, 2013 by mindperformer

[Change]

Thanks for the tips to get rid of the ants guys.

But like mindperformer has pointed out, when the ants aren't a problem there is no need to kill them.

Im just curious as to what they get up to.

[planthelper]

ants on caapi, have never posed a problem for me, caapi never seems to suffer much from ants and what they are farming and doing.

but ants, and what they do, can kill other plants and even lophs (ants for example, aswell, love carrying away loph seeds), and even if you treating the pest well, the ants will return and do there work, as it's ther living.

i said, it millions of time, ANTS AND PESTS ANIMALS, MOSTLY ATTACK ONLY WEAK PLANTS!!!

meaning, you don't only have to spray to get rid of the pest, but you have to aswell, FERTILIZE MORE, and make sure the plants in question, don'ty suffer from any stress!! stress could mean, too little or too much water, too little, or too much sun, or lack of nutes.

btw regarding, neem has anybody observed aswell, that neem can burn plants, even in the low recommanded doses?

i stopped using it now, for my more sensitive plants.

aswell, most people don't like to spray, what ever parts of the plant which might get used medicinaly.

[Micromegas]

Here is the problem I am having with ants. It started off fine but progressed to this:

You can see where I have cut the branch tip off because ants had destroyed it. All that new growth is from 10 days or less so it is growing quite well if not for the damage. The plant is quite healthy. The leaves are closed up only because this is after sunset.

I also dug up another cebil that had been in the ground but never grew well due I think to be next to two quandongs and a sandalwood. Check out the nodules. i think this is rhizobium not haustoria from the santalums.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Micromegas

[planthelper]

strange indeed, i got only vilca, and it's the toughest thing you can imagen, ants killed and damaged everything, left, right and centre, at my place, but the vilca stayed unblemished.

look at those suction cup looking things, they look like a big wax scale, the tree has them, to reward the ants, for protecting it.

i don't think ants ever hurt a plant which displays those nectar glands, it's the same with caapi, and caapi has got nectar glands aswell!

[Micromegas]

Yeah I don't know what to tell you PH, Cebil is the only plant I have ths issues with. I have largely solved the problem with some granular ant poison stuff and the plant has taken off.

Interestingly out of the six cebils, 5 were sugar ants and one meat ants. The meat ants did not cause anywhere the same level of damage.

Are you saying those white nodules/suction cups things are scale of some kind? I would have guess rhizobia but I don't know for sure.

[planthelper]

the things on the roots, i'm not sure about, but i guess it's a pest animal.

but what, i mean are those ones, they are nectar glands, and the plant has them for the ants and maybe other creatures, in exchange for protection.

but in oz, i hardly have seen ant's using them.

enlarge pic, i have incircled, the parts i talk about.

Edited February 16, 2013 by planthelper

[Yeti101]

I noticed something similar on my M hostilis recently - will try to get pics soon.

[Benzito]

I no longer have my Caapi plant, but for the few years it was going well it always attracted ants. The basal secretions seem to attract them as someone else said.

It ended up dying due to me moving and having an unsuitable climate(tiny apartment balcony) and not enough watering but I really think ants are not a bad thing on Caapi. I never once saw them herding other sap suckers, they were too busy enjoying the sap themselves.

[Bert&Ernie]

I love ants but they can be a nuisance sometimes... i had a cereus cutting that I had planted and it was growing quite nicley untill some ants started farming scale on it they almost killed the plant they even but a bit of a nest in one of the pups grrrrr but I just lopped of the pup and applied some sulphur and they have never come back since lol

[planthelper]

at least you, guys, can kill the ants, the ant is one of my primary totem animals, so i should not kill them and neither eat them, so basicly they almost get away with murder at my place.

i do kill some, but never on a big scale, i try to re educate them, instead killing them.

black ants aswell, protect EVEN YOUR HOUSE, against a far worse pest, the white ant, another reason to not exterminate them.

Edited February 19, 2013 by planthelper

[Bert&Ernie]

I try not to kill them at all... People look at me so funny when im carefully stepping around a spot where ants are everywhere