anthing um thing sequel anthing un nah!

[Thelema]

This is the famous question of theology, cosmology and philosophy.

Yet I have recently stumbled upon a question:

What would the world look like if there was Something AND Nothing?

Surely it would look no different from a world where there was Something AND NO Nothing.

Therefore the postulate "Why is there Something rather than Nothing?" Condenses merely to the assertion that "There is Something".

Which is not a question, but furthermore a statement which is completely logically vacuous.

MATRIXEDIT

[ 15. April 2003, 05:45: Message edited by: Thelema ]

[nabraxas]

there are afew ways ov looking at this.

on a physics note, the 'holy grail' ov the moment, over 10 years research & billions spent- the search for "dark matter" an invisible gas ov heavy subatomic particles, which in theory makes up nine tenths ov ALL matter- that's a lot ov stuff to go "missing", but we know there must be something rather than the nothing we've found, because otherwise gravity is too weak & galaxies would be torn apart.

also on a subatomic scale, matter is composed ov atoms, & atoms are mainly empty space; but the speed w/which the electrons whizz around give the atom a solid appearance- like a fast moving propeller looks like a disc. so basically all matter is basically empty space, w/the illusion ov solidity.

on a another level "nothing" would be a vacuum, & "something" would have to fill it as "nature abhors a vacuum"

well, i don't know if any ov the above really answers your proposition, but those were my first thoughts on reading it.

[faustus]

the idea of the void crosses my mind with what you're asking. don't know if it answers your q but this is from a book i'm reading by stanislav grof:

... we feel that it is primordial emptiness of cosmic proportions and relevance. we become pure consciousness aware of this absolute nothingness; however, at the same time, we have a strange paradoxical sense of its essential fullness... while it does not contain anything in concrete manifest form, it seems to comprise all of existence in a potential form. in this paradoxical way, we can transcend the usual dichotomy between emptiness and form, or existence and nonexistence.

[Gilbert Nolander]

Perhaps everything is made of nothing.

[ 01. April 2003, 13:33: Message edited by: Gilbert Nolander ]

[occidentalis]

Back to physics: A theory that I have read about says that in the beginning of the universe, anti matter and ordinary matter both existed in plentiful supply. For some reason there was slightly more matter than antimatter. The antimatter and most of the matter was all destroyed and what was left is the universe we are in today.

[Thelema]

unfortunately none of these responses come close to answering my question.

My query was: Is there a difference between asking:

a)Is there Something rather than Nothing?

b)Is there Something AND Nothing?

I challenge anyone to find a substantive and testable difference between these 2 questions.

CHRST

[DazedSol]

Isn't nothing actually something?

[mesq]

Something: An undetermined or unspecified thing.

Nothing: No thing; not anything

No Part, No portion.

Ok

Question 1 Is there something rather than nothing

Asks is there an undetermined or unspecified thing, rather than not anything at all .

Question 2 Is there something AND nothing

Asks if there is an unspecified thing as well as not anything.

So what is the difference?? The difference in my opinion is that Question 2 is an oxymoron of sorts.. If you already have something then you can't possibly have no thing. If you have "something" you still know you have it but what you have is not known and unquantifiable at present.

Here lies the question... is nothing anything? Is nothing a thing?? Does nothing exist in its own right? If you have nothing is it something? In fact is there any such instance known to man where NOTHING as an occurence actually exists? (except my bank draft)

I don't believe so. In any case if nothing IS something than you can't have nothing AND something because nothing then becomes something.

Or something like that. I can't possibly hope to keep up with thelemas intellect but i'll give it a go.

[Gilbert Nolander]

A difference between the two?

a)Is there Something rather than Nothing?

b)Is there Something AND Nothing?

The difference between a) and are the words than and AND.

Seriously though, the diffence is that everything is composed of something. And this something is held together by nothing. Nothing being the empty space between atoms, so therefore, a) is not valid because without the nothing holding together the something, there would not be anything. So is true and a) is false, that is the difference.

Or, maybe not.

[Auxin]

A idea is something AND nothing. A idea has no form, no mass, no physical energy therefore it is nothing. A idea can be given a definition and it can be passed along from person to person, therefore it is something.

[mesq]

Sorry Auxin:

According to Dictionary.com

Thing: An entity, an idea , or a quality perceived, known, or thought to have its own existence.

Emphasis mine.

So if some-thing (an idea) is a thing than how can it be no-thing?

[ 02. April 2003, 18:10: Message edited by: Mesqualero ]

[Auxin]

You didnt listen, yes it is something. It is also nothing- no mass, form, or physical energy.

You could say when its in your brain it does have mass form and energy 'cause our thought processes do, but when a idea is on paper the paper is something, the ink is something, but the idea is nothing- but its still something.

And dont put too much trust in dictionaries- they are written by people in a hurry who are pissed because they cant get a job as a real writer, so there are often mistakes. If we had the worlds top intellectuals writing the dictionaries who would be left to research the military applications for antimatter?

[mesq]

Who is to say whats a thing and what isn't a thing? Just because something is intangible does that mean it cannot be a thing?

[Thelema]

Auxin, you seem to be assuming that "existence"="physical attributes".

this itself is an idea you have about the world that (on your own reasoning) therefore cannot be real. Furthermore, nothing unreal can have a basis in reality. (unless you are willing to say that ideas do have a basis in reality)

If you do say this idea of yours has a basis in reality, then at what stage (and how) did the reality get lost?

[Darklight]

Because if there were nothing rather than something, we would have nothing to talk about

[woof woof woof]

hi hi, DL.

"great mystery", says that there is rather something then nothing because of a love beyond words emanating troughout the univerese.

journey within and youll see the answer. it will hit right between the eyes.....

[t st tantra]

my reading of crowley now much in the past led me to his experience as a secret chief,which seemed to deal with discovering that the piece of god in everyone was a hole or piece of nothing.apparently a truely traumatizing experience for the beast.and something that still haunts me occasionally.

t s t .

[Gilbert Nolander]

interesing t s t .

I was just going to ask why love can not also be composed of nothing?

I am pretty sure, though it really makes no sense to me, that everything is composed of nothing.

Whatever that means...

[Guest electro]

unfortunately none of these responses come close to answering my question.

My query was: Is there a difference between asking:

a)Is there Something rather than Nothing?

b)Is there Something AND Nothing?

I challenge anyone to find a substantive and testable difference between these 2 question

RE :

------------------------------------------------

Yes there is a difference, one gives the choice between One option OR the other option (or not)

ie answers yes = something no nothing

no = nothing no something

end of options

while the second question ask if there are BOTH at ONCE or not.

ie answers yes = something AND Nothing

no = something no nothing

no = nothing no something

end of options

the only difference is that the second question offers more options. the first is a definate yes no question which gives you your options, the latter gives you an option to agree with or disagree with, but does not state what your option is if you disagree, leaving it open for your own theory.

[Thelema]

Ok electro, you have found a difference between the 2 QUESTIONS.

But I was asking whether or not you could determine anything that would distinguish between the answer to the first question from the answer to the second.

Do you get what I'm driving at?:

Suppose you found an answer(proof) to a)

Then what possible imaginable reason would distinguish it from being an answer to the alternate also?

ie. suppose you found that there WAS something RATHER than nothing. How would this 'find' differ from finding that there was something AND nothing?

[mescalito]

If you're SOMETHING you can see nothing.

If you're NOTHING You can see something.

A piss head and a pot head don't see I 2 I!

I've seen it

Yin and Yang!

Y'a Know

BTW I always put a pot on my head B4 I Drink :D

Y'asee home-brew leads to wierd shit like I post :D !!

Can't wait 4 my first bust-they'll lose out.

"crucifiction??"-"No....

freedom-actually"

(c'mon Monty Python fans are hard to find)

[ 05. May 2003, 04:31: Message edited by: mescalito ]

[mescalito]

Don't believe I posted that......I've gotta get off the grog