Atropa Belladonna WHERE ART THOU!?

[Hajuu]

Hey y'all!

I am fairly new to the world of plant identification and location. My interest was first sparked by the intricacies of mushroom identification, and now honed strongly on common plants.

I have yet to get a 100% positive identification on an Atropa Belladonna plant, though I was informed by the C.A.L.M website, that around my local area, they had re-planted some minesites with Atropa belladonna plants.

I have found a small patch of plants that fit the bill nearly exactly.. But they are nowhere near big enough! They could possibly be first years, but I find it strange that there are so many first year plants, with no matured plants.

I have been testing the plants authenticity firstly by visual identification (Thick fleshy white tap root, Upstanding 2-6 foot, Green or purple stem, Leaves compared from photos, Berries), and also by brewing a small portion of fresh leaves in a mug of hot water, straining, and consuming.

This seems to produce a mild euphoric effect, but nothing normally associated with this plant.

Also missing from these plants are the distinctive flowers! Not a single flower have I seen. Which is what leads me to believe that this is not the plant I am after.

Any help with locating this plant (Locations or descriptions or a guide to consuming, which I have been unable to find) would be EXCELLENT.

Thanks alot,

Hajuu.

[Humanfuel]

Hey Hajuu.....

Maybe some photo's would help.....!!!!

...and just a warning.....!!!!!.... Belladonna is not what most people would call recreational.... make sure you do a lot of research on dosage and what to expect.... before trying to consume your next brew....!!!!!

[Jack]

They dont call it deadly nightshade for nothing.

[dracos6]

its bloody everywhere round here, every vacant block and park are filled with the shit, but i dont think ive even seen a 2 foot one, most are about 1.

i dont know what type of flowers atopa has, are they like daytura/brug flowers?

also thought bella was quite a bit more dangerous than the above, esp the berries. is this correct or not? they are all quite dangerous

[Evil Genius]

Hi Hajuu,

it sounds odd to me that you have discovered no mature plants. Aren´t atropas perennial plants? It seems that you aren´t sure at all about the ID so i would strongly recommend you to avoid any tests associated with ingestion. Mature Atropas have a size of about 1,20 m to 1,50. Why don´t you buy some commercial seeds or plants to avoid the danger of misidentification? I saw some with black berries and some with dark yellow berries.Maybe there are some more varations.

[ 20. August 2005, 02:02: Message edited by: Evil Genius ]

[Rev]

Ok so ignore me if u already know but...

there is much confusion in Australia over what is deadly nightshade

Personally i have only ever seen 1 atropa belladonna and that was at wandjina and it was dormant or sick

but it was strikingly different to what i knew as dealy nightshade

TsTTantra also send me a heap of seed for the AFSR as did a few other people (sorry to forget who)

The most common plant people often refer to as the dealy is in fact solanum nigrum

it goes by many names. black nightshade, garden hucklberry, wonderberry

etc

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/nexus/S...nigrum_nex.html

some herb info

http://www.ann.com.au/herbs/Monographs/solanum.htm

botanical info

http://www.geocities.com/pelionature/Solanum.htm

pic

http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/pictures/p1...anum-nigrum.htm

in contrast this is A belladonna

http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/n/...n/nighde05.html

http://www.holoweb.com/cannon/belladon.htm

it is much more succeulnat and an altogether different looking plant

hard to find good pics

im going to grow some myself once i can get a kiddy pool fence put up around my nursery

contact me in a few weeks and should have relocated the seeds

also in WA youll find down south in clearings many solanum aviculare or laciniatum? - kangaroo apples too

[ 20. August 2005, 13:35: Message edited by: Rev ]

[Rev]

and yeah u arent allowed to eat them if i send u seeds!

smoke it if u must but pleez dont eat it

[Torsten]

the black nightshade which is usually an annual or biannial has flowers like a potato or other Solanums, ie (tiny) star shaped, with white petals and egg yellow stamen in the centre. The deadly nightshade is VERY different in that it has short tubular flowers. The flower is the most obvious part to use for ID as the berries look very similar.

I am not aware of ANY areas in australia where belladonna is a common weed.

I think you were lucky that what you drank was probably Solanum nigrum and not Atropa belladonna

Most people on these forums will make sure of the ID of a plant before consuming it. Those who don't usually lose interest very quickly as a result of either short term or long term physical or psychological damage.

[Hajuu]

Hmmm. I see.

Well I knew about the Black Nightshade.. But someone told me that was not at all what I was after, and that Atropa was the only good species of belladonna for human consumption?

Wouldn't suprise me if they were wrong. They aren't particularly knowledgable. heh.

So.. What am I likely to find around Perth then?

Seeds would be appreciated, but why the no-eats? I thought thats how they were healthiest? But no, if you send me seeds they will be well appreciated and planted as i'm going to be after a steady supply of this stuff rather than gathering it externally.

Is Black nightshade psychotropic? Do I need to tincture it, or can it be par-dried and brewed in a cup of hot water?

Thanks alot,

Hajuu

[Hajuu]

Oh! and also.

I am properly educated in what to expect from consuming this, and related plants, and will aproach it the same as with any drug I have not consumed before. With excitement, but with caution.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Hajuu:

I am properly educated in what to expect from consuming this, and related plants, and will aproach it the same as with any drug I have not consumed before. With excitement, but with caution.

If you were properly educated about tropane containing plants then you would

1) not eat them

2) know how to ID them

3) understand the importance of proper ID

The plant you consumed is quite toxic unless it is properly cooked. Don't expect to father any children for the next little while.

Atropa is a totally unpredictable plant (like most tropane containing plants) and should never be eaten. There is simply no safe dosage because the alkaloid content in the plant can vary by several hundred percent between populations, between individual plants, and from one week to the next. The only relatively safe way of dosing tropanes is to smoke them because they come on within a few minutes and will stop you smoking more once you've had enough. Most overdoses on tropanes are due to people who THINK they know what a safe dosage is.

[Evil Genius]

I can not understand why people are still wasting their time with these toxic plants. The Effects aren´t desireable at all and you could also have much better experiences using other, much more safer plants. I doubt that educated people would ingest unkown plant material because they are aware of the dangers. You shouldn´t too but you are old enough to make your own decisions.

[ 21. August 2005, 04:17: Message edited by: Evil Genius ]

[gerbil]

dracos6:

its bloody everywhere round here, every vacant block and park are filled with the shit, but i dont think ive even seen a 2 foot one, most are about 1.

 

= Solanum nigrum, as discussed.

 

quote:

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originally posted by evil genius:

I can not understand why people are still wasting their time with these toxic plants.

This may have been the case for so many plants in the past, imagine if mid->sth americans treated caapi to this extent after first discovery.

How about cannabis? (eh a bit different but similar situation)

Every plant has it's place, solanaceous are bloody rich in useful compounds. Then you can break it down to every individual. Some people work well with this compound some people work well with that compound, some like this plant some like that. Personal preference will always allow diversity to flourish.

[Torsten]

Evil Genius I think you will find that quite a few people have gotten very positive effects from tropanes. Recent threads:

* apothecary making smoking mixes containing brugmansia

* lorax smoking tropanes for seasickness and for recreation

* Being just had the ride of her life with an ayhuasca brew containing brugmansia

* myself posting many many instances of sensible and very insightful tropane combinations.

Don't let the hysteria blind you to the real possibilities. Tropanes are challenging and require good understanding and skill. Which is why threads like this one really piss me off.

Tropanes used to only ever be prepared by experienced shaman and never consumed by inexperienced people except in the smoked form. Making brews requires that you know your species, and your individual plant. You can't just take some leaves off a plant that you don't know and hope for the best. That's how all the horror stories orginate. But you try and tell a south american shaman that brugmansia has no purpose.....

[Talby]

Good points, Torsten, gerbil, Rev. and I have to add that as far as everything I've heard for 15 plus years, Atropa Belladonna is about the worst if not THE worst tropane to be messing around with. Christian Raetsch talks about this in his well known lecture about Henbane, Mandrake, etc ("Sacred Plants of Ancient Europe)... Belladonna contains a hell of a lot of Atropine, which is very dangerous, even more than the scopolamine and so on you'll get in datura, henbane, etc. I've heard of NO ONE using Belladonna recreationally, perhaps someone could enlighten me on this and the chemistry, but the *&(@ plant is named after Atropos, the fate that severs your life's cord at death, for a reason!

There's a nice Belladonna plant at the botanical garden in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco. A very beautiful, powerful, dangerous plant that no one should be messing about with, for dilletante purposes, without an expert around, and even then, I think most of us would pass on the chance, unless we were serfs in the middle ages who had no other access to painless surgery available.

[Rev]

Id say brugmansia, Hyoscyamus and mandrake are the more friendly of the tropane plants

Datura less so

and atropa even less as mentioned

My best tropane trips have been with pharamecutical hyoscine (scopolomine) AKA travel sickness pills like avils and kwells

i would recommned this over the herb for oral dosing as you can aim for specific doses with confidence

if using herbs as T says - smoke it

Ive had it with mushrooms and the effects were very nice - excpet the dry throat

[Hajuu]

Ok. What I meant was.. I am propperly educated in the EFFECTS to expect. I am not concerned with negative effects really. Not to say that I am an idiot or anything, I just simply don't particularly care.

Um. Yeah well information was kind of sketchy as to how to consume, so I took the most universally agreed method of consumption that I had at hand, and that was brewing it into a tea. Haven't suffered any negative effects as far as I know, though I wouldn't know about the actual content of my ejaculation, it is flowing freely heh.

So basically, What can I find around thats safer or more controllable that is found natively in the bush. Call me naive, but this prospect has me excited, and I don't really want to wait an extended period of time to grow/buy plants.

That was the main apeal for me. That it was readilly available. (Or so I thought)

OH! Also, if a link or a particularly useful page for information on uhm.. Ahusca brew or something? Sounds good. heh.

Thanks,

Hajuu

[ 21. August 2005, 11:10: Message edited by: Hajuu ]

[Benzito]

 

quote:

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OH! Also, if a link or a particularly useful page for information on uhm.. Ahusca brew or something?

---

My, you're a lazy one aren't you?

Try Erowid for starters.

[Torsten]

Originally posted by Hajuu:

I am not concerned with negative effects really. Not to say that I am an idiot or anything, I just simply don't particularly care.

Well, we all are concerned and we do care!!

We don't want some idiot overdosing on belladonna after reading these (or other) forums, running around town naked, acting like possessed by the devil and generally making a media spectacle of himself. Cos with the amount of 'knowledge' and 'care' you have shown here you sound like a prime candidate for such a media hysteria.

And no, this is not made up bullshit. Almost every year something like that happens in one country or another - last year it was NZ, maybe this year it will be Aus/Perth? There is always some moron who spoils it for the rest of us.

I find your careless and impatient attitude abhorrent. You fail to take responsibility for yourself and for this community, and you have no respect for the plants themselves. With that sort of attitude I doubt anyone here will send you seeds or plants of ANYTHING.

Haven't suffered any negative effects as far as I know, though I wouldn't know about the actual content of my ejaculation, it is flowing freely heh.

The plant you consumed is harmless in comparison to some of the others you may have mistaken. As I said before you were probably lucky you didn't get the right species.

So basically, What can I find around thats safer or more controllable that is found natively in the bush. Call me naive, but this prospect has me excited, and I don't really want to wait an extended period of time to grow/buy plants.

OK, I will call you naive. And impatient. And dangerous. You won't be getting any answer to that question from me or most others here until you have a change in attitude.

That was the main apeal for me. That it was readilly available.

There are plenty of drugs readily available. If you're just after a quick fix then you'd be better off to just go and buy some of them. Tropanes are not suitable as a cheap high. If you didn't know that then you haven't learnt anything.

OH! Also, if a link or a particularly useful page for information on uhm.. Ahusca brew or something? Sounds good. heh.

You gotta be joking

In the 6 years we've had this forum I have never refused to give advice to anyone, because in most cases I feel my advice will do good. In your case I feel anything I say will only help you to hurt yourself and I do not want that responsibility.

As Benzito says, go and have a look at Erowid for the information you seek. Once you've learnt your lesson (and are still alive) you might approach things more maturely and sensibly, and you might find more respect in this place.

And you might even be 18 by then.

[ 21. August 2005, 13:53: Message edited by: Torsten ]

[Evil Genius]

Hi Torsten,

you are fully right about the not deniable benefits of some of nightshade alkaloids. I would say, that they are a very welcome admixture to many recipes i appreciate. In very small doses though. But I would never approve ingestion of mixtures constisting only of nightshade alkaloids.Unfortunately i only know about 2 or maybe 3 People personally who are able to use these alkaloids in a appropriate manner and they had to learn a lot of lessons during the years. I assume that in this Board are very well experienced persons in this area too who will not have Problems like overdose for example. I mostly thought about the Nightshade use for Newbies. In my Experience, they basically overdose this kind of plants. As a sidenote by the way, i would strongly warn to use nightshade alkaloids as admixtures in salves, even for profs!

Before the time i got a dog, i had some Brugmansia sanguinea in my gardens too. They are real beauties.

[ 21. August 2005, 14:56: Message edited by: Evil Genius ]

[apothecary]

Mate, these people are trying to save you a lesson you don't want to learn.

This plant is the deadliest of all the deadly nightshades. If you don't die, or completely shatter your mind then you might be lucky enough to end up alive, half blind for a week, with no recollection of where you spent the last two days.

There are things you want to consider: almost all the "tea" based trip reports I've read end with the trippers parents/significant others driving them to hospital. Do you live with your parents? Do you want your parents to know about your drug use?

Tropanic alkaloids have an anti-cholinergic effect on your brain. This is not the natural state of your brain, and overdose (so easy on Atropa sp. ) on anti-cholinergics can severely damage it. Seriously. Unless you know how to counteract this, experimenting is a bad idea.

There is plenty of (and I mean plenty, enough for a retard like me to learn) good info on these forums from people who advocate the use of this plant, with guidelines on the safest way to ingest , etc.

[ 21. August 2005, 15:40: Message edited by: apothecary ]

[hoodoo]

Extracts of calabar beans, opium and other medicines could be used as antidotes for atropine poisoning, although often it is too late as death can be quick. Atropine itself is also used as an antidote to some nerve gases, and military medics in Iraq prescribe atropine as an antidote to reverse the effects of nerve gases. It may be why so many war veterens come home nuts, depressed and more than a few go berserk on shooting sprees years after returning.

This page has some nice info regarding chemical comparisons of some solanaceae:

http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C10/C10Link...holinergics.htm

As usual, Henriettes Home Page also has gorgeous photos like those Rev showed above and they also link to the old but informative "King's American Dispensery," which is a good start for info on a plants traditional usage.

King's wrote:

"In cases of poisoning by stramonium and its alkaloid, the best mode of obtaining relief is to evacuate the stomach by emetics or the stomach-pump, after which vinegar and water may be used, with mucilaginous drinks, at a later period, and strong coffee, tea, and other stimulating drinks, if there is much prostration. The physiological antidote is opium (or morphine) its employment being guided by the degree of pupillary contraction produced. Electricity and pilocarpine may also be useful. According to Garrod, caustic alkalies, but not their carbonates, destroy the active principle of stramonium."

http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/eclectic/ki...ngs/datura.html

[ 22. August 2005, 04:17: Message edited by: hoodoo ]

[Hajuu]

It's okay. Don't stress.

Found some, brewed, consumed.

I was careful with my dose and didn't have any terrible experiences. I was lost in hallucination for around 12 hours. Nothing of note happened. Slight memory loss, but vague recollection of the entire time.

I will also care to point out to those who are mortified by the erowid experiences vault on this substance, that in more or less all the terrible experiences, no care was taken. More than what one would consider an appropriate first time dose was taken on pretty much all accounts. Not a single one of those people started slowly, increasing their dose incrementally over time. Marijuana was also a common factor in many of the bad experiences.

Also, thank you for thinking yourself better than me, torsten. It's precisely this attitude which has driven me to "not care". I won't consume any more of your valuable time.

[ 22. August 2005, 16:30: Message edited by: Hajuu ]

[Tryptameanie]

 

quote:

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But someone told me that was not at all what I was after, and that Atropa was the only good species of belladonna for human consumption?

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No, it's full of atropine and thus poisonous.

The S. nigrum you found is suitable for human consumption though, apparently making a fairly passable jam

 

quote:

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I will also care to point out to those who are mortified by the erowid experiences vault on this substance

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Umm, "mortified" means "extremely embarrassed", which is what you should feel about parading your stupidity for all to see, then ignoring the advice given by knowledgable people who "care" enough about an anonymous fool to try to help them.

If you won't listen to the responses, please don't waste space asking questions on these forums.

[mescalito]

Trypt wrote

quote:

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The S. nigrum you found is suitable for human consumption though, apparently making a fairly passable jam

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From "What Food Is That and How Healthy Is It?"

 

quote:

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It is thought the underripe berry could be used as an abortogenic owing to it's content of the alkaloid solanine.

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quote:

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...Aborigines almost certainly ate the native fruits.In many of these countries the leaves and shoots were also used as a green vegetable.

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PREPARATION AND USE: The ripe berry can be eaten RAW or made into jams, pickles, preserves or used in pies.

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I think you are extremely lucky hajuu that it wasn't in fact Atropa