'Awareness during surgery is common'

[hutch]

This happened to me in my youth during wisdom teeth extraction....I could hear every word they spoke except it echoed around in my head a bit, I could feel them stretching my mouth open to the point I thought it would rip and I remember the tools in my mouth and an inabilty to move or scream out...I was screaming inside I can assure you....and I couldn't breath, my mrs wonders why I hate dentists and why I go kicking and screaming....Imagine open heart surgery and it happened....has it ever happened to anyone here?

EACH day, several patients going under the knife in Australia have some awareness as they're being operated on, local experts say.

About one in every 1000 people who are anaesthetised report some level of awareness, said Professors Andrew Davidson and Kate Leslie, from Melbourne's Royal Children's Hospital.

On the opening day of the Combined Scientific Meeting in Hong Kong today , Prof Leslie said: "Every anaesthetist at this conference, there's 2000 anaesthetists here, each of those people has had two episodes of awareness in the last year.

"It's very common.

"Most of the people out there would deny ever having had a patient with awareness, and the reason why is because they don't ask them afterwards.

"It's a bit hard to go along and sort of say, 'It was my job to keep you asleep, did it work?'"

" ... every day in Australia there are a number of people who are aware."

And it's even more common in children, affecting about one in every 500, Prof Leslie said.

"It's possible that they don't even understand that they're supposed to be asleep or they really think it is sleep."

Prof Davidson said levels of awareness can vary from vague memories to the 10 per cent who can recall harrowing descriptions of exactly what happened.

"For example, during cardiac surgery people (report) feeling the surgeons sawing their chest open then feeling them putting the hooks in to pull the chest apart," he said.

About a quarter of these extreme cases will lead to long-term post-traumatic stress disorder, causing things like nightmares, anxiety, depression and a fear of going back to the hospital.

"It seems to be the people that are most traumatised are the ones that are paralysed and in pain and wide awake and unable to move and terrified about doing anything," Prof Davidson said.

"It's the fear which causes the psychological problems, it's lying there being unable to move.

"(But) people with post-traumatic stress disorder don't like to report the fact, because the last thing they want to do is talk about it again, so it's hard to know how many get it."

Awareness is triggered when a patient doesn't get a high enough dose of anaesthesia.

The blame used to fall on the anaesthetist, but the element of error has dropped significantly, Prof Davidson said.

Low doses are now more likely because a person can't tolerate a generous amount of anaesthetic - like cardiac patients or trauma victims who are "bleeding to death so they've got a low blood pressure".

Obstetric surgery also ups the risk because doctors are cautious not to give the baby too much anaesthetic.

And some people are more resistant to the numbing effects of anaesthetic, prompting the Australian professors to study genetic links to awareness.

"There's a hint that this maybe fruitful because it's not uncommon for awareness to run in families ... or people who are aware once might be more likely to be aware a second time," Prof Davidson said.

He said anaesthetist are always on the look out for signs a patient might not be completely knocked out - like a rise in heart rate or blood pressure - and many are using new brain wave technology in a bid to wipe out awareness.

The paediatric anaesthetist recalled a 12-year-old boy who began to show signs of awareness as a flexible camera was used to look in his throat.

When the doctor said: "That doesn't look very good I better get the surgeon to have a look" - the child's blood pressure soared, Prof Davidson said.

"I spoke to him after the anaesthetic ... and he said,'I think I remember hearing little bits and pieces,' but he wasn't too bothered."

While the thought of waking up mid-surgery freaks most people out, there are some who are curious and shrug it off as a "weird" experience, Prof Davidson said.

"A young fit bloke fell off a motorbike and I was giving him an anaesthetic.

"He'd had a previous event where he'd felt them banging a nail in to his knee and said it was odd but it didn't bother him."

http://www.news.com....c-1226055951523

Edited May 14, 2011 by hutch

[ballzac]

This happened to me in my youth during wisdom teeth extraction....I could hear every word they spoke except it echoed around in my head a bit, I could feel them stretching my mouth open to the point I thought it would rip and I remember the tools in my mouth and an inabilty to move or scream out...I was screaming inside I can assure you....and I couldn't breath, my mrs wonders why I hate dentists and why I go kicking and screaming....Imagine open heart surgery and it happened....has it ever happened to anyone here?

 

Your first mistake was to get a general for a tooth extraction. Ask for a local next time. Then if it hurts, you're quite capable of telling them so.

[hutch]

Your first mistake was to get a general for a tooth extraction. Ask for a local next time. Then if it hurts, you're quite capable of telling them so.

 

It was my mums mistake then.....and it was teeth as in 4....they did things a little different when I was a kid...

[FancyPants]

I've been under general over 20 times since 4rs old and it scares the crap out of me that it might happen.

I also had general for all four wisdoms removed. Recovered so quickly I was back out getting drunk the next night.

[dworx]

Your first mistake was to get a general for a tooth extraction. Ask for a local next time. Then if it hurts, you're quite capable of telling them so.

 

I had a local for a cancer removal - told the doctor "hey thats sharp", he said "can you feel that?, Don't worry nearly done and he stitched it up totally non - nonchalant, Asshole doctors - we care!lol.

[ballzac]

Yeah, doctors can be arseholes. I've had back pain since about the age of 14. For several years, I never had pain in my back, but I had severe referred pain just above my collar bone near my right shoulder. The doctors said it was an inflamed lymph node. They were all pretty callous about how much I was suffering. I remember one particular guy said that it doesn't hurt much. I told him it does, and he basically shrugged me off like I was just being a wimp. Others thought I was angling for prescription pain killers. Perhaps if they had've actually believed me about how much pain I was in, I wouldn't have been misdiagnosed for so long. Ultimately, the solution was as simple as being careful about posture, making sure I get enough rest, and not doing too much physical work. But without knowing what was causing the pain, and getting no respect from doctors, there was no way I could know how to manage the pain.

I much prefer the attitude of practitioners who take the wholistic approach, such as naturopaths and TCM doctors. Unfortunately, I've never found any to have effective solutions to problems that I've had. Still, neither do western doctors for the most part. Unless you've got something common and life threatening, like angina, diabetes, blah blah blah, there's not much they're going to be able to do.

[strangebrew]

Yeah my mum was fully aware of her hysterectomy and she mentioned it to her doc afterwards and I get the impression he didn't believe her. What an asshole!

What a total fucking nightmare scenario - paralysed and unable to speak. She doesn't like talking about it.

Apparently it was pretty common in the past. A little better these days.

[ThunderIdeal]

hey paralysed isn't *that* bad, it happens to a lot of people in their own beds.

being chopped open and feeling it on the other hand sounds *rather* bad.

i had this large plantars wart that needed to be cut out when i was about 10 or 12. huge thunderstorm, after getting a local the power went out and the GP disappeared for ages mainly to locate a torch. the local must have mostly worn off by the time he came back, because every step of the procedure was nearly as painful as the local was (and the local was pretty painful near the tip of my big toe). the doctor just kept going, i dunno why he couldn't have given me some more anaesthetic.

[Torsten]

I woke up during my appendix op at age 10. Couldn't feel anything, but could see everyone's hands fumbling about. Angle of eyes did not allow me to see the actual opening, but what i saw was gross enough [keyhole surgery was still only a lightbulb in those days]. Anaethetist got a bit agitated when he saw my eyes open, did a few things in a hectic manner and I was gone again. Have never had general again as it freaks me out. If at all possible I just go with local or with deep sedation.

[synchromesh]

The scariest album I've ever heard.

[FancyPants]

^^^^ Huh, never even heard of that album, and I've seen Fantomas live. Have just bought it off itunes, will listen at appropriate time.

From what I remember reading, there's three componants to general anaesthesia; losing consciousness (initial and maintenance), immobility, and pain block. I imagine the very worst would be the pain block being inadequate, and the maintenance sedation going. Since there's apparently a genetic link between redheads needing more painkillers I'm glad I'm not a full-on ginger to have to risk that. Having had a ten-hour major surgery through a 7x7inch flap opened up on the right side of my abdomen and chest and held open with a huge metal clamp, I'm exceedingly glad I was knocked out utterly for that one. Imagine that one to be awake and aware for!!!

Edit: Knew I should've checked first, apparently the redhead link is that they're MORE sensitive to certain analgesics (AFAIK kappa-opioids! Imagine trying to guage your sally trip and then discover too late your gingerism sent you far beyond what you'd allowed your dose for!)

Edited May 15, 2011 by FancyPants

[lofty86]

hey paralysed isn't *that* bad, it happens to a lot of people in their own beds.

being chopped open and feeling it on the other hand sounds *rather* bad.

 

Years ago when I used to chrome this happend often I would slip from waking conciousness to lucid dreamstates/obe's but there was a paralasis I would often become trapped in on the way in or out somtimes time would freeze for what seemed like an hour I found this to be extreamly disturbing (some how this never stopped me) that feeling like you may be trapped forever is awfull would hate to imagine how any one would feel knowing they were being sliced and diced while this was occuring.

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't know how severe it can be from chroming, but i had practically forgotten until you mentioned it..... it *is* very unsettling isn't it? most people report the state being associated with an overwhelming sense of fear and often a malicious presence, which has usually been my experience.

to be fair though, being awake for surgery would be millions of times worse.

[ballzac]

Years ago when I used to chrome this happend often I would slip from waking conciousness to lucid dreamstates/obe's but there was a paralasis I would often become trapped in on the way in or out somtimes time would freeze for what seemed like an hour I found this to be extreamly disturbing (some how this never stopped me) that feeling like you may be trapped forever is awfull would hate to imagine how any one would feel knowing they were being sliced and diced while this was occuring.

 

I always thought of chroming more like an infinite loop than frozen time. I remember one time I was following a letter "i" up an infinite staircase. It was jiggling and making a noise "igibly aigably" repeatedly. I forgot that the experience had a beginning and didn't realise it would have an end. Scary shit.

[synchromesh]

Yeah, doctors can be arseholes.

 

Appearingly so can ambulance officers... My Mum got picked up by an ambulance today, and both the male and the female officer showed practically no care at all. They didn't even ask for my mobile number or say goodbye. And not only that, but they forgot to take her pills as well... After asking for them no less!

[ballzac]

As I've stated before, there are always two sides to any story, and whenever an ambulance officer is assaulted by a 'junkie', we never hear the junkie's side of the story. If ambulance officers can be cunts to the rest of the general public, imagine how those same ambulance officers would treat a junkie.

[ThunderIdeal]

couple days ago somebody approached me at work and said there is a lady screaming for an ambulance in her house. he didn't have a phone so i had to go into her house and call an ambulance for her.

she had falled and hurt her back, and had to crawl to the front door to call for help, the door was half ajar and she was on her said with the door sticking in her back.

she told me to make sure the paramedics didn't bump the door as they stepped over her to enter the house. this was obvious. i never bumped the door. i told the first paramedic not to bump the door and to be careful stepping over her, the first thing he did was bump the door.

i thought that was pretty careless. i stood outside for a while and i got the impression that they weren't taking it very seriously, they seemed to be giggling amongst themselves (three of them) at how hysterical she was.

can't say for sure. whenever i have been in an ambulance they have been professional

[FancyPants]

I've met my fair share of arseholes throughout the medical system, up to the weasle-y CEO of a major sydney teaching hospital. They're in the minority, but they can sure do some damage in any position they hold.

[Distracted]

Years ago when I used to chrome this happend often I would slip from waking conciousness to lucid dreamstates/obe's but there was a paralasis I would often become trapped in on the way in or out somtimes time would freeze for what seemed like an hour I found this to be extreamly disturbing (some how this never stopped me) that feeling like you may be trapped forever is awfull would hate to imagine how any one would feel knowing they were being sliced and diced while this was occuring.

 

I thought that was pretty normal for the upper end of dissociative experiences? I find that timless period to be like a 2D version of the first stages of DMT and it's not the period you're stuck there that's the worry, but finding your way back to our reality can be disorienting and confusing.

Awake (2006)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0211933/

Here's a pretty average film about the topic at hand. Personally I found the paralysing scenes to be quite distressing and played on my mind for awhile after watching.