How much land is needed to sustain a family?

[kadakuda]

So if you wanted to do everything for yourself in a modern fashion without hookign into the grid (aside from choice) how much do you need?

Assuming you wish to accomplish the following:

energy creation for your home

waste management

food

shelter

sure, many things would come from outside resources liek buying materials, phone, tv car etc. but it seems the big costs (energy: food, water, electricity (substituted for oil/gas) can all be made/harnessed on the land you live.

And because many places have winters, lets assume a 8 month growing season for field crops, though greenhouses and some nifty techy stuff can extend that to all year).

2 adults and 2 kids who will become adults of course. add any changes you think may be appropriate.

i have found the equivelant to about about 30x80 feet have supported me and my wife for plant based food quite well, though it was not incredibly intensive and lots of waste because we dont rely on it. that was also in the tropics.

curious to see what you guys think (if anyone else is thinking about this).

[synchromesh]

An acre or two would be enough IMO.

[vual]

i know people who run permaculture farms on 5acres and support there entire family from it.

5 acres gives room for sheep and pigs, if you were relying on just permaculture a acre of well done permaculture would suffice.

permaculture is the answer, it cant be done without permacultre, to much work otherwise.

Edited April 26, 2011 by vual

[synchromesh]

permaculture is the answer, it cant be done without permacultre, to much work otherwise.

 

True dat!

[Evil Genius]

This is also interesting to me because im in the process of starting permaculture on my property. How would you start doing that? I mean what are the most important food plants? And i say this mostly in regard of permanency and possible outcome? I wont be able to get it all done this year but i want to get it started asap. bye Eg

[ThunderIdeal]

if you are going to call it a permaculture property EG you may as well read up on the basics before you start putting things in the ground. choice of plants will really depend on your climate, what you want to eat and/or sell and whether or not you will have animals. what do you need besides food? timber, firewood, stock feed? does the soil need improvement, are you putting in dams, drains, swales, fencing etc

i've always imagined, for food, planting the slow growers first. fruit and nuts and anything else that takes a long time to produce. vines and vegies and grains will be part of the operation but you can kick them off anytime.

i couldn't even try to answer the question for somebody ten hours drive from me much less on another continent.

[santiago]

its funny i was thinking about this yesterday, whilst driving i suddenly noticed the size of everybodys front yards..........huge by international standards i would presume. lets just say the average block is 700m2 in australia then the average front yard would have to be 100 to 200m2.

anyways whilst driving i noticed nobody in these front yards, im sure now and then most people frequent their front yards but i think mainly only for windowkeeping so to speak. its just a presentation area for the house or at best an alternate back yard or parking area. then i came to think of the premium of space in some other countries and then the space that is just wasted over here on the mostly useless realm of the everday australian front yard.

im right arent i .............................its just a gigantic waste of space the front yard?

[Sheather]

We grow a little coffee in ours but yeah, pretty useless. I would like to swap out a lot of the old stuff for some that is more useful, but it suits the house so well as it is.

[synchromesh]

The permaculture DVD which Gardening Australia made is quite good, EG. You should see if your local library carries it.

Edited April 27, 2011 by synchromesh

[Quill]

but synchro Gardening Australia is on "our ABC"

[synchromesh]

Yeah, but I don't know when it will be on again. And I also don't know if EG is a patient person or not.

[Evil Genius]

if you are going to call it a permaculture property EG you may as well read up on the basics before you start putting things in the ground.

Yeah Thunder, im in the process of learning all the knowldedge i need to know about it. Theres a nice permaculture book from a german guy that is pretty cool but i dont wanna spend money on it. Im pretty much forced to cut the costs as the job situation isnt as well as i thought it would be around here. Im starting to think about selling some cacti, palms and other plants to make some extra bucks. Plus growing most of my food in my garden. That gives me enough room to live a pretty alright life and maybe even opening a small nursery in the next 5 years. I´d usually take it slowly and read all the books one after another but i have to get this started or im pretty much fucked.

The permaculture DVD which Gardening Australia made is quite good, EG. You should see if your local library carries it.

thanks for the tip. I´ll see if i can get it online...our libraries usually dont even have the german permaculture DVDs.

[synchromesh]

Whoops, I forgot you were in Germany! Sorry dude!

Here it is: http://www.torrentzap.com/torrent/512951/Gardening+Australia+-+Permaculture+%282006%29

[Evil Genius]

Whoops, I forgot you were in Germany!

I take that as a compliment.

Here it is...

Awesome Synchro, thanks a lot!

[synchromesh]

Ah, okay...

Welcome.

[kadakuda]

thanks for posting that synchro, should b done tomorrow

EG, can you elaborate on what your doing now? love to hear more.

for me, we have 5 acres (330x660) about 500x360 are all treed. we have lots of nature around, tons of deer and bears to make me frustrated farming. looking at google earth, our land is the most treed, all lawns and rusting trucks from us to the park, about 3 km away. so i dont want to cut much. already i have planned to cut 400x250 off the front for farming, and top some of those trees for light. but that will be more chipping away as farming space is needed, instead of cutting it all at once and end up cutting too much. i hope to cut far less, forest is good, and i feel liek an ass to want to cut it.

we are planning fruit trees (cherry, plum, apricot, apple, pear, peach) int eh front part (north end) berries around the house then greenhouse or field crops. we are in canada by the way, so south facing is the sun getter. my experimenting here in taiwan has been fun, and i know i can support us for vegetabels with a very small space (about 0.7acres), but the cliamte here is full grow 12 months a year,differnet than canada.

we also plan to have some fish in our irrigation pond (about 150x50' pond) and also have chickens and bees. we decided not to have big mammals cause they seem to need too much space.

will also be converting the house to solar heating and solar power, but that wil be later.

anyone here done any subfloor (heat sink) style heating in cooler areas? we are thinking like the solar greenhouses that are attached to the house and have an under flood "waterbed" heat sink that has circulating water heated by the greenhouse (and fireplace in really cool weather).

[synchromesh]

thanks for posting that synchro, should b done tomorrow

No worries. Enjoy.

for me, we have 5 acres (330x660) about 500x360 are all treed. we have lots of nature around, tons of deer and bears to make me frustrated farming. looking at google earth, our land is the most treed, all lawns and rusting trucks from us to the park, about 3 km away. so i dont want to cut much. already i have planned to cut 400x250 off the front for farming, and top some of those trees for light. but that will be more chipping away as farming space is needed, instead of cutting it all at once and end up cutting too much. i hope to cut far less, forest is good, and i feel liek an ass to want to cut it.

we are planning fruit trees (cherry, plum, apricot, apple, pear, peach) int eh front part (north end) berries around the house then greenhouse or field crops. we are in canada by the way, so south facing is the sun getter. my experimenting here in taiwan has been fun, and i know i can support us for vegetabels with a very small space (about 0.7acres), but the cliamte here is full grow 12 months a year,differnet than canada.

we also plan to have some fish in our irrigation pond (about 150x50' pond) and also have chickens and bees. we decided not to have big mammals cause they seem to need too much space.

will also be converting the house to solar heating and solar power, but that wil be later.

I'm jealous...

anyone here done any subfloor (heat sink) style heating in cooler areas? we are thinking like the solar greenhouses that are attached to the house and have an under flood "waterbed" heat sink that has circulating water heated by the greenhouse (and fireplace in really cool weather).

 

No, but they are meant to be really good. I saw a show on TV where a single pipe heated the whole house. And the house was surrounded by snow as well!

[stavroski]

anyone here done any subfloor (heat sink) style heating in cooler areas? we are thinking like the solar greenhouses that are attached to the house and have an under flood "waterbed" heat sink that has circulating water heated by the greenhouse (and fireplace in really cool weather).

i design these(dream up schemes about them) every winter, 2and a half mtre clearance under the house and slate tiles. it gets bloody cold. we've slowly accumulated all the materials (almost) to run a test system. can't do solar because of lack of sun hitting house (lotsa bush) in winter the fog mightn't clear till ten and the suns slipping round the mountain by 2, don't want to be cutting down trees when it will only make a small difference, EG permaculture is all commonsense, you already know what to do, put those herbs in round the house and just keep on going from there. we live on the side of a mountain, believe me i can put in a garden bed Anywhere, you soon learn what you've got and how to make it work, ya just gotta get going.

[Halcyon Daze]

They know what you want (what every common man wants) and they like to make it really really hard for you to get it.

In Australia there are plenty of blocks around an acre or less, or blocks that are 50 acres or more. It's much harder to find land around the 5-50 acre size (affordable).

1 acre is just a bit smallish for permaculture, and often those 1 acre blocks are so close to town that they are quite expensive anyway and they have annoying rules and regulations like 'no cows' etc.

50 acres+ is usually too expensive based on it's sheer size and you may not be allowed to subdivide or even build a house on it. I think in NSW the minimum size for automatic housing entitlement is 100 acres. This is the case for a lot of places anyway, so check up on that one.

You can go into huge debt if you want, but then how do you live the permaculture dream when you have to bust your ass all day in a shit job just to repay the bank, while your dream slowly dies and your wife pisses off with the kids.

Also there are plenty of Multiple Occupancy blocks around, but they are going up in price and can have a lot of problems with weird people roaming around your land. People in MO blocks often talk of the many frustrations they experience.

My suggestion, go thirds or quarters on a big block with your brothers, and develop your area until oneday you can subdivide. In the meantime work a job you don't hate, and rent cheaply nearby, knowing that you have 100 acres of fruit trees, cows, a couple shacks , gum trees, a sheep or 2 and a kangaroo, and peace of bloody mind.

"You ain't no man 'till you own your land" or some such in 'Oh Brother Where art thou'

Work hard, save hard and spend carefully, or get born into a rich family, either way works.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Halcyon Daze

[Scarecrow]

i'm loving the fact that people are actually doing this. that's really encouraging. my friends and i have been contemplating something along these lines, but haven't really known what to call it or look for when trying to learn about it.

i'll have to introduce them to "permaculture". we've got a shared dream, and we're happy to have shared land!

[Halcyon Daze]

It's a good start, you can always save up again and get another bigger/ better one, sometime down the track.

Beggars can't be choosers I tells ya

[qualia]

what do you need a cow for?

[Halcyon Daze]

what do you need a cow for?

Fresh milk of course

Edited May 31, 2013 by Halcyon Daze

[quarterflesh]

friends of mine said they needed a license or needed to be a primrary producer or something to own a cow, and that is on 20 acres. so they got mini ponies instead. does anyone know the legalities of owing a cow? i assume a goat would be easier.

[qualia]

Fresh milk of course.

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