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Gunter

freaks!!!!

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i've been working on a breeding project and have been lucky enough to sow some seeds of T thelegonus X juuls/peruvianus, T huasca X SS02 ( a form of bridgesii) and also some peruvianoid monstrose/crest X SS02

a great many (most) of the huascha X SS02 lost their green color and or grew funky, a few of the thelegonus X juuls/peruvianus also grew variagated, and about half of the peruvianoid monstrose/crest X SS02 grew as crests

here are some pictures:

huascha X SS02:

post-1018-0-39430700-1298251641_thumb.jp

post-1018-0-91259200-1298251654_thumb.jp

post-1018-0-17739900-1298251667_thumb.jp

thelegonus X juuls/peruv

post-1018-0-91643200-1298251686_thumb.jp

post-1018-0-63928000-1298251698_thumb.jp

and my favorite crested seedling of peruvianoid monstrose/crest X SS02:

post-1018-0-45964600-1298251675_thumb.jp

note that several of the Hua X 02 have very little if any chlorophyll, i am not interested in growing plants that cannot survive without being on their own roots and have no interest in grafting, if they can't make it then they can't make it

The breeding project involves crosses between San Pedro type cacti and related species, like thelegonus, huascha and globular echinopsis types etc and then crossing these, as well as inbreeding them, so as to get various targeted forms/phenotypes, which flower readily in cultivation and breed true for desired traits, so far the first stages have gone fairly well and it is clear that several crosses work one way only, that is to say that while San Pedro pollen can be used on several species, many of those species do not produce seed when their pollen is applied to San Pedro

however the F1 populations so far cross without problems, i assume that the pollen tube of some of the smaller species is too short to be able to fertilize the ovary of the San Pedro forms which tend to have rather long and large flowers

i hope to be able to avoid breeding weak phenotypes like the albino like freaks, they seem like dead ends as far as my project is concerned

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i love the crested one, i hope they toughen up for you

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the crests are growing great on their own roots just like their parents!!!

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Veeeeeeeeeery nice work there :worship:

I've never seen pink in a Tricho variegate, only yellow. What causes the different colours?

Do you have any pictures of the monstrose/cristate Peruv. flowering? As I don't think I've seen a monstrose Tricho flowering.. Very cool that it passed on its freak genes.

Thanks for posting :D

Edited by centipede

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i did not perform the cross of the monstrose X SS02, i was kindly sent 10 seeds by the person who did the cross, 8 of them germinated and 4 were crested

the pink is a common color, indicating some degree of stress in some trichocereus plants, although not always and is more common in seedlings than adults

as adults it is unlikely that it would remain pink

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Do you have any pictures of the monstrose/cristate Peruv. flowering?

ditto, would love to see pix of flowering monstrose/cristate Peruv. :drool2:

congrats getting crested from seed, ya ever wanna share the love and pass around them seeds :worship:

I've never seen pink in a Tricho variegate, only yellow.

i dont think the pink is a desired(or stable) colour as so far the variegates ive got any white or pink seems to discolour/scar compared to the yellow sections.

very cool, interested to see if the cross delivers similar percentage of crests/variegate/montrose second/third time.

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given that the peruvianoid monstrose/crest X SS02 had a 1:1 ratio (despite the very low sample size) and that it has done so for many others who received the seed as well, i believe that crests of it would produce a similar ratio in an outcross F1 and produce 100% crested plants in F2

Should i ever get seed from such plants i would be more than happy so share, as was so kindly done with me

i am also willing to bet that the person who crossed the plants still has a flowering size peruvianoid monstrose plant and that seeds of similar crosses will be around to some degree or another, if we are lucky the pollen that makes such seed will also be shared

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That monstose peru x SS02 hybrid seems to have some incredible progeny amongst those lucky enough to have received seeds of the cross. I really look forward to seeing the plants mature.

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Definately photoshopped

LULZ

awesome. Some might have been a bit burnt, or is it just me?

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none burned whatsoever! no scarring, damage or anything like that, just a trace of stress pigment, which almost always seems to show in seedlings in my experience, even when they are rapidly growing

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the Nitrogen cross:

post-1018-0-19936400-1304271558_thumb.jp

Another cross, T husacha? X SS02

post-1018-0-81966000-1304271602_thumb.jp

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I've wondered about introducing pollen from crested plants and what would happen to the seed.

It seems I'm not the only one, I haven't even seen a crested in flower yet though, just theory.

That is an awesome discovery, thanks for sharing. I'll be keen to try this as well.

Would be super keen to get some crested flower pollen and even see pics of it flowering.

Well done :worship:

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Love your work!

Those are some damn funky plants!

So what traits are you trying to isolate?

I can see why albinos would be sort of a dead end for the project but then there would be so many who would see this as a must have just for the curiosity factor.

Anyways, keep up the great work. I can't wait to see the next generation!

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awsome mate love your work its inspirational

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Needless to say this looks like a real peruvianus crest, unlike the pachanoid one which sometimes is mislabeled as peruv crest.

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very cool archeae. those first ones are definately variegated. and for your project, you may be right in thinking they are not veyr good uses of time. but i bet you can trade a lot for them ;)

that crest is very interesting. i have not bred trichos at all, but i know with other cacti hybrids are generally more prone to mutation, such as variegation and cristation. but that many crests from that many seeds is unusually high, makes you wonder if that crest is genetic. or perhaps he cristation as in that parent plant is jsut a result of a random mutation gene that cant grow "right" and it got locked into crest and couldnt escape lol...very interesting.

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considering that every person who grew seeds of that cross reported a crest or monster plant, and oddly enough some of my seedlings that are not crested are showing some odd rib growth... i believe it is a genetic trait in this particular case.

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why do you suppose you got so many variegates from the try of first two crosses pictured? any of the parents variegated?

i notice two small seedlings in the front of the third picture that are smaller and look globular...its hard to tell as there is a little relection from the sun obscuring its finer details, but its that a non trich seedling?

is there anything you might be doing, or if all the seed came from the same source, that they might be doing, that would give the large number of variegates? or did you weed these out of thousands of seedlings?

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why do you suppose you got so many variegates from the try of first two crosses pictured? any of the parents variegated?

none of the parents were variegated

i believe that genetics are responsible.

i notice two small seedlings in the front of the third picture that are smaller and look globular...its hard to tell as there is a little relection from the sun obscuring its finer details, but its that a non trich seedling?

They are the same as the other seedlings in origin, all seedlings depicted in those plantings are from the same parents.

is there anything you might be doing, or if all the seed came from the same source, that they might be doing, that would give the large number of variegates? or did you weed these out of thousands of seedlings?

more than half of the Huascha X SS02 cross were albino or variegated, something like 2/3 of them were and a very low percentage were chlorophyll stable

A large portion of the Thelegonus X juuls/peruv cross were also variegated, about half...

As far as genetics, cytoplasmic inheritance and the way the gamete donors package genes for gametogenesis may have something to do with this

I suspect that the gametes genes are not fully compatible, compatible enough to cross but not compatible enough to make fully stable plants in the F1, i hope that the weakness can be bred out in the F2 generations

It is note worthy that while these crosses both succeeded, the attempts at the reverse crosses (SS02 X huascha and Juuls/Peruv X thelegonus) did not result in fertilization taking place, another potential sign of a genetic incompatibility, although a mechanical reproductive barrier relating to the pollen tube may be the cause of this, the pollen of the plants with the shorter flowers may not have been able to grow a tube long enough to reach the ovary of the plant with the longer flower, while the plant with the longer flower may have had no difficulty reaching the ovary of the other plant with the shorter flower.

I suspect that the same crosses performed again would result in the same ratios of freaks

if someone made the cross Huascha X peruvianus 'monstrose' i would expect a large number of seedlings that are both crested and variegated/albino

it is worth noting that the huascha plant involved has a white flower and is somewhat akin to T candicans, though not identical, so it may be atypical for huascha

I like crested/monstrose and robust plants, but do not care for something that cannot grow in a robust manner on its own root system

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I suspect that the gametes genes are not fully compatible, compatible enough to cross but not compatible enough to make fully stable plants in the F1, i hope that the weakness can be bred out in the F2 generations

that would seem logical. Some variegated plants are certainly genetic (i cant speak for trichocereus though). Breeding a variegated plant to a normal plant, that is not heterozygous for variegation produces variegated babies, so its not even recessive like so many albino animals. but then i don't think variegation is anything like animal albinism. animals lack a pigment, plants seem to partially lack a pigment and are capable or producing it in the future, usually. Even totally red gymno wall mart cacti can start to produce green. maybe another topic.

one thing that is apparent is that hybrids often result in variegated seeds. so many of the asian freaks are through hybridization. it is really too high a number to ignore and makes me think Archaea you are onto something with that. but if these resulting hybrids that are somehow "crossing wires" and not producing the right pigments in the right ratios would they then tend to be genetic? is it variegation that is genetic or simply degenerative genes that basically fuck up the plants ability to produce chlorophyll. What i think would be a worth while venture is to cross known hybrid freaks with the same species as the seed bearing parent (to ensure it is of similar genetics in case the plant just made freak selfs) and breed it through a few generations. keep breeding it to "clean" parents and see if each cross consistenly produces variegated plants.

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i wonder about cacti in particular, the pollen is tri-nucleate, while most plants are bi-nucleate

i wish i knew more about the details of their developmental biology, the seeds and embryos are markedly distinct from other plants as well

there is so much unique about these plants, i would love to learn about them for the rest of my life

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great specimen you got the Arch

With this kind of luck i would go gambling ;)

Keep this thread updated please as this is very interesting

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I like crested/monstrose and robust plants, but do not care for something that cannot grow in a robust manner on its own root system

i'll take em off your hands! :D

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Even totally red gymno wall mart cacti can start to produce green. maybe another topic.

start producing or is it already there just masked by the red colour much like seedlings turning red??

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just for fun here are some more pictures:

this is the hybrid taquimbalensis X bridgesii, it is planted with some Delopsperma

post-1018-0-28737300-1305161698_thumb.jp

and here again is the huascha X SS02

this plant is about 5 cm wide at the top and about 12 cm tall, it is kind of stout and very much intermediate to the parent forms

post-1018-0-97254400-1305161671_thumb.jp

post-1018-0-76444900-1305161681_thumb.jp

This last one is also Hua X 02, however you can see that it is partly variegated

I am really curious about the meristem of this plant, it seems to have different cells for different ribs...

post-1018-0-66346800-1305161690_thumb.jp

if you look close you can see a plant next to it that became an albino

Edited by Archaea

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