myco natives

[nut]

i think i may have made a error after reading something ,am i correct having said something about subs and cubes being native to aus,am i partly correct with regards to subs,but what of cubs,educate me please!!!

[bℓσωηG]

they came with the cattle , as they did around the world spread when cattle farming tribes entered new territory with their cattle.

[nut]

only cubes hey and where are they sposed to be edemic too,are the ones found in queensland analogues of some from another country or have they become their own strain ,any ideas as to what countryor what cattle they originate from //

[bℓσωηG]

Interesting question nut , it may have been water buffalo from Indonesia ,they also used cows from Pakistan, Mexico and India in some breeds,English cattle probably wouldn't have been the carrier as the climate there is too cold . I was reading in one of Timothy Learys books once a long time ago now, how technology became more advanced and mushroom cult type religions followed where the Psilocyben mushrooms spread as cattle farming tribes conquered new territory and intergrated with natives.

Edited January 23, 2011 by blowng

[herbal_hindsight]

cattle explains cubes but not subs... where do people think they came from coz from the research ive done there is no real evidence to support either theory.. whether they are native or whether they were introduced from somewhere else?

this is something which has intruiged me for sometime now

[Amazonian]

I think i remember reading T Mckenna saying that Psilocybes may have come from another realm ???

From an interview with Terence McKenna in High Times magazine:: From your writings I have gleaned that you subscribe to the notion that psilocybin mushrooms are a species of high intelligence -- that they arrived on this planet as spores that migrated through outer space, and are attempting to establish a symbiotic relationship with human beings.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Amazonian

[obtuse]

cattle explains cubes but not subs... where do people think they came from coz from the research ive done there is no real evidence to support either theory.. whether they are native or whether they were introduced from somewhere else?

this is something which has intruiged me for sometime now

 

I think in the case of subs its a watch this space type of issue.

on one hand the spores are small enough to hitch rides on the air currents that circulate the globe, so there is nothing to say that they havent been slowly moving via that method.

on the other i am curious about the weroroa pouch fungus in NZ, where some people seem to think it is the progenitor of the blueing psilocybe species. given that, the species may well have originated in gondwana and spread from there. it sits well with me that the woodloving species evolved first and then the cubensis and other poo loving varieties evolved from there, hitching a ride with sundry animals and growing on their faeces being a better adaptation. humans are a late arrival but they have adapted to us quite well.

I think genetics will reveal a lot about their origins, and will give us a clearer idea of what happened.

also i tend to agree as per stamets in that they tend to travel with humans, and animals. but i suspect this is far more relevent with regards to the poo loving types, and that in the case of woodloving species it was more likely a matter of discovery for some cultures as they migrated into those areas.

as far as cultural use is concerned, knowledge about them would have been part of the whole secret knowledge held by the elders of most cultures. In a lot of cases in modern times the elders of many cultures were wiped out by european introduced diseases and we lost all that traditional knowledge, which is why we have no cultural evidence.

how far back in time their use as an entheogen began is really a big question. i personally dont think we'll find much conclusive evidence beyond a point. the rest is all conjecture.

this is very basic summary of my thoughts at the moment, and i may well be wrong on many points, but its fairly well a given that cubes have spread from their orgins in central america, but that i feel woodlovers are generally endemic to where they are found, the subs/cyans/azures being a interesting focus of discussion though.

Cheers, Obtuse.

[bℓσωηG]

WA subs were rumored to have come with pine saplings which had soil from Scandinavia

[botanika]

on one hand the spores are small enough to hitch rides on the air currents that circulate the globe, so there is nothing to say that they havent been slowly moving via that.

also i tend to agree as per stamets in that they tend to travel with humans, and animals.

 

Had subs been in Australia for any great length of time I would expect greater differences between Australian and NZ specimens. As they are they're very similar to species from PNW America. It's possible spores have been carried around the pacific by winds/currents but probably more likely travelled with humans - especially as Australian forests were using many timbers from not only around the world but specifically areas where almost identical fungi grows. I reckon subs came out with euro settlers. I just don't think aborigines and maori's would have missed them if they were endemic.

[Magicdirt]

Had subs been in Australia for any great length of time I would expect greater differences between Australian and NZ specimens. As they are they're very similar to species from PNW America. It's possible spores have been carried around the pacific by winds/currents but probably more likely travelled with humans - especially as Australian forests were using many timbers from not only around the world but specifically areas where almost identical fungi grows. I reckon subs came out with euro settlers. I just don't think aborigines and maori's would have missed them if they were endemic.

 

I'm not sure fungus has much need to evolve,not on our timescale anyway, it responds to environmental conditions more by mass sporilation and probability of some spores finding a suitable niche. It's a bit different in the plant kingdom where hybridisation takes place naturally and is quite common, but fungus is notoriously hard to hybridise and exchange genes because of chemicals produced by the mycelium that prevent clamping and stops genes being transferred. It is an intriguing point about the genetic similarity of NZ Australian species though, there must be some common link.

Birds are also world travellers and some species forage on the forest floor and could be another suspect. I had an idea of using birds to spread inoculated grain and/or spores in an evil plot to infest my district with a particular species of interest, low probability of success but high a volume effort could equal success if the timing and conditions were right.

I've often wondered if the Aboriginals and Maoris knew about them but the knowledge was an inner circle type of thing, with the possibility of confusing them with galerinas it may have been considered safer to tell the kids all mushrooms like that are poison.

I really cant see the Aboriginal elders telling white settlers about hallucinogenic substances either, I'd tend to think things like that would have been guarded knowledge for those that have earned their stripes so to speak.

[nut]

real interesting,ive always had the vibe that subs where native but i feel that the aborigines not having a known interaction,tells us a lot as in other indig cultures they were often a well known fungi of use,we know much of the paturi trade routes so i think if the were used by the aboriginals we would know,points to the idea they may have not been here for that long.love your idea of mass spread of spores

Edited January 24, 2011 by nut

[t st tantra]

WA subs were rumored to have come with pine saplings which had soil from Scandinavia

 

subs coming in with pines ,cones? , was always my guess....

t s t .

[botanika]

I'm not sure fungus has much need to evolve,not on our timescale anyway, it responds to environmental conditions more by mass sporilation and probability of some spores finding a suitable niche. It's a bit different in the plant kingdom where hybridisation takes place naturally and is quite common, but fungus is notoriously hard to hybridise and exchange genes because of chemicals produced by the mycelium that prevent clamping and stops genes being transferred. It is an intriguing point about the genetic similarity of NZ Australian species though, there must be some common link.

Different rates but everything is always evolving and the differences between P subs and P cyans, for example, are not extreme - I mean they are not extreme enough to be dismissed. They are not that far removed. The european settlement of australia and NZ was also not far removed from each other.

Birds are also world travellers and some species forage on the forest floor and could be another suspect. I had an idea of using birds to spread inoculated grain and/or spores in an evil plot to infest my district with a particular species of interest, low probability of success but high a volume effort could equal success if the timing and conditions were right.

Yeah definately could happen, but I dont think any birds from australia migrate past the PNW of america? Some head right up into russia via asia but Im not sure how much of an influence that is as birds are constantly cleaning and moving through different food sources along the way. It's far more likely spores or even full mycellium travelled out with botanical specimens, forestry or farming equipment etc. As Stamets said, and someone else quoted here, the mushrooms directly follow human patterns of settlement, even the woodlovers. They like disturbed and transitional environments. There is not a lot of indication psilocybe's directly follow birds migratory routes.

I've often wondered if the Aboriginals and Maoris knew about them but the knowledge was an inner circle type of thing, with the possibility of confusing them with galerinas it may have been considered safer to tell the kids all mushrooms like that are poison.

I really cant see the Aboriginal elders telling white settlers about hallucinogenic substances either, I'd tend to think things like that would have been guarded knowledge for those that have earned their stripes so to speak.

 

There would still likely be some sort of observation by early settlers. It's possible they kept this amazing secret, but unlikely.

Edited January 25, 2011 by botanika

[nut]

the thread, magic mushrooms of australia and new zealand by john allen,makes for some very interesting reading on what cattle came from where and when,poss answers a lot of these,questions if the info is correct???!!!

[Magicdirt]

Different rates but everything is always evolving and the differences between P subs and P cyans, for example, are not extreme - I mean they are not extreme enough to be dismissed. They are not that far removed. The european settlement of australia and NZ was also not far removed from each other.

Yeah definately could happen, but I dont think any birds from australia migrate past the PNW of america? Some head right up into russia via asia but Im not sure how much of an influence that is as birds are constantly cleaning and moving through different food sources along the way. It's far more likely spores or even full mycellium travelled out with botanical specimens, forestry or farming equipment etc. As Stamets said, and someone else quoted here, the mushrooms directly follow human patterns of settlement, even the woodlovers. They like disturbed and transitional environments. There is not a lot of indication psilocybe's directly follow birds migratory routes.

There would still likely be some sort of observation by early settlers. It's possible they kept this amazing secret, but unlikely.

 

Good points Botanika my post was mostly speculation, I hope I didn't come off like I was disagreeing with you.

@ nut - it's been ages since I read John Allens' works, didn't he suggest something about livestock from Argentina being a likely candidate ?

[Zen Peddler]

Different rates but everything is always evolving and the differences between P subs and P cyans, for example, are not extreme - I mean they are not extreme enough to be dismissed. They are not that far removed. The european settlement of australia and NZ was also not far removed from each other

Quite true - apparently the differences between one locational variety of Ps.cyanescens and subaeruginosa that there has been arguments that they are the same species in the past. Pinus Radiata were imported into Australia. However other lignious Psilocybes from North America and Europe have a really hard time exploitong Eucalyptus mulch which subaeruginosa does not. There are some minor macroscopic and microscopic differences. If you held a specimen of Ps.cyanescens ip against a subaeruginosa specimen you would notice that Ps.cyanescens has a different margin, is somewhat larger than subaeruginosa, has a perfectly white stem as apposed to the subaeruginosa grey flecked stem and they stain a different degree of blue.

Azurescens prefers a sandy environment in Astoria where a grass from the Baltic Sea is flourishing. Could be that Azurescens came from there as well.

There is probably more variation between subaeruginosa specimens than there is between a lot of Psilocybe species type specimens.

[botanika]

Good points Botanika my post was mostly speculation, I hope I didn't come off like I was disagreeing with you.

@ nut - it's been ages since I read John Allens' works, didn't he suggest something about livestock from Argentina being a likely candidate ?

 

Hey dude not at all, I'm speculating too! The jigsaw pieces seem to fit nicely though. The pines used in australian plantations are originally from northern California - probably introduced in the 1850's onwards, from the 3 major forests of Monterey, Santa Cruz and San luis Obispo areas. A quick search of the shroomery reveals that P cyanescens can be found in SF, Santa Cruz and Monterey as well as other similar or related species. All the general locations where subs are found, pinus radiata is found. Where you find subs in WA, SA, NSW, VIC, ACT and NZ are all in proximtry to plantations. Pinus radiata was also used in other southern hemisphere areas like South Africa, Argentina and Chile. I'd have to research more on that to see if any psilo's similar to subs/cyanescens have been found there.

I once almost joined John Allen on his final south east asian 'mushroom foray' a few years back on the Cambodian leg but had to attend a friends wedding instead. I went to Cambodia a few months later looking at his recommended spots but found zilch.

If you held a specimen of Ps.cyanescens ip against a subaeruginosa specimen you would notice that Ps.cyanescens has a different margin, is somewhat larger than subaeruginosa, has a perfectly white stem as apposed to the subaeruginosa grey flecked stem and they stain a different degree of blue.

 

I wonder if the subs are mimicing their habitat...like the 'grey flecked' gum tree trunks, chips and leaf litter? Adaptive camouflage!

Edited January 25, 2011 by botanika

[nut]

i need to ask if peeps have really often seen them in pine forrest,ones that i have seen are usually in the more native boarders of said radiata forrest,they like growin amongst young radiata but as soon as they block lite so grass cant grow on the forrest floor they seem to disappear from my observations,i think ive seen one in 17 years of lookin on the dark pine forrest needle covered floor type environment,any one agree???

[obtuse]

people used to say they grow near pines trees and i Never believed them till i found them growing amongst some pine needles at my local beach two years ago. I nearly fell over..., well off my bike.

soil was really sandy, pine needles were really thick, but there were gum trees nearby, and there was a little grass as well.

there were heaps all along that particulat area, and i was really very surprised. So obviously they are far more opportunistic that we may give them credit for.

Cheers, Obtuse.

[kindness]

i need to ask if peeps have really often seen them in pine forrest,ones that i have seen are usually in the more native boarders of said radiata forrest,they like growin amongst young radiata but as soon as they block lite so grass cant grow on the forrest floor they seem to disappear from my observations,i think ive seen one in 17 years of lookin on the dark pine forrest needle covered floor type environment,any one agree???

 

very occasionally, certainly not as prolific as in the grassier edges or openings in pine forest. As has been said above however this would follow the pattern of a lot of psilocybes liking riparian / disturbed / dynamic environments rather than ones which are relatively stable.

interesting topic... thanks for the good reading all

I've certainly seen subs in some stage environ's as obtuse mentions. My personal opinion is that they have just found radiata forests very much to their liking... being that radiata are often grown near areas where subs will grow in native forest. That is my experience anyway.

As for indigenous use of shrooms, well it has certainly become practice now lol... I dunno about in the past though. I really get the impression that they weren't used and that the culture leans more toward nicotine/datura style plants... and that is just my opinion based mainly around states of trance and ceremony. I feel that those plants help more in those states than mushrooms.... I have also thought that there was no need for shrooms as trance induced through song and dance was enough to connect with higher / different consciousness.

[herbal_hindsight]

i've found subs growing right next to pine trees, in amongst pine needles [during season if i find bracken i usually find mushrooms] in the middle of a pine forest in a valley [1000's] growing amonst eucalypts and also amongst everyday mulch most councils use growing next to acacias and various shrubs... and of course grassy areas nearby pine forests...

i've always found it fascinating how they can prosper in so many different environments...

and yeh as far native use... despite the loss of knowledge on the aboriginal past it seems likely they weren't part of their traditions and ceremonies and id have to agree with kindness on the nicotine/datura [pituri] kind of usage

although i feel there is a good chance with such a vast selection of acacias to choose from some being said to contain required maoi betacarbolines as well that oral dmt consumption seems possible atleast at some point throughout their history..

mere speculation but who knows right!?

[tripsis]

I've only ever found subs amongst pines. Unless they really were subs I found in India...

[nut]

wow i never knew that they grow in such diverse locals,i cant imagine them growing near the sea,if they grow in such diverse locations ,why are they so damn hard to grow,so i ve been told

[Razor]

wow i never knew that they grow in such diverse locals,i cant imagine them growing near the sea,if they grow in such diverse locations ,why are they so damn hard to grow,so i ve been told

 

dam good question nut the amount of success with cultivating cubes and attempting to cultivate cubes (or subs for that matter) is quite low and the ridiculous amount of effort in stopping contamination is off the charts, i love to study all kinds of fungi and have found nature to be a better cultivator then any glove box, not to say the average successful glove box won't yield a bounty of fruit but the effort in isolating and creating its own biosphere without contamination is very high and they just seem to grow so easily in nature, mother nature is miraculous for sure

Edited February 14, 2011 by Razor

[Panaeolus]

I've heard that some active were growing on kagaroo droppings in NT, if that's true they would definatly be endemic. I dont know if they are psilocibes or not though.

Just food for thoughts