The dissociative state.

[incognito]

hmm i never thought peace required definition.

i see peace as being without fear, of feeling comfortable in ones own skin and, of being happy with ones own lot.

i see peace as seeing a miracle in a flower, alchemy in a conversation, beauty in all the small (and large) things in life.

tranquility.

i hear u that you are quite anxious (fearful) in your own life. you wish to conquer your anxietys through the use of entheogens? am i getting this wrong?

[Chiral]

I do find some things in this world to please my aching mind, generally they are of the environmental or natural kind...things like...

watching an orb spider spend all afternoon weaving this intricate web to catch moths in on a warm summers night

seeing an unusual bird landing in a tree and then watching it feverishly looking for something on the tree, finally watching it bend over a branch and almost be upside down so as to get it's little beak inside a very difficult to reach flower

sit and watch two skinks chase each other around the yard on a summers afternoon and wonder if they are playing or fighting

admiring fungal blooms in the bush and understanding their role in nature and the worlds ecosystems.

I do feel a sense of quite awe when enjoying these few and far between experiences but I'm not sure that is what I would call peace as such...to be brutally honest i don't think the place I am looking for is here in this plain...this place is a stepping stone to another resonance so I don't see the need to become obsessively attached to much here, and i certainly don't want to ever fear leaving here.

Anxiety is an awful affliction to be under, fear just feeds of it and turns a living organism into a mess and probably weakens that version to a point of extinction.

I do find immense joy in my children, they are incredible, what is distracting sometimes though is that I fear ever leaving them and don't want them to miss me or morn me in any way...yet another fear I wish didn't exist, then there is the fear of them ever being hurt or getting ill or dying before me...see what I mean...I don't like to live with fear it's very demanding and corrupting of the pure mind.

[incognito]

do u think u will be an adequate father, and partner, if you continue to use psychadelics in the way that u are at present?

i do not know how regularly u do, but from what i gather, from personal convos, u use quite frequently. would embracing 'this reality' be of more benefit to your children? who need a ftaher in the here and now?

[mutant]

Dissociative states is something I have explored a bit though legal in my country natural resources like salvia and amanitas.

I don't know how what I have experienced is compared to K, but it sounds really the same deal.

I was never the repetitive guy as far as any strong psychedelic/stimulant is concerned, heck, I normally not even drink two days in a row,

but there are indications that amanitas are not of an addictive nature. Salvia even more so in that matter.

For some reason I feel these states are pretty compatible with my mind, I have found piece by simply being in these states, extreme euphoria, also body euphoria with salvia. My friend has also got a mini recipee ritual, a couple of beer, on top of alcohol euphoria coming some green, and after a while a salvia puff, this is pretty repeatable for him , and he claims he has archieved epiphanies which are just ... that, like Chiral said, a state of bliss of just being, or, rather, in more intense states and higher doses, in NOT being !

That last factor is what makes people who habe experienced this disso-state less fearful of death.

I would also like to add that human mind can produce dissociative states by itself, NDEs or derealisation/depersonalisation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder

So it's not so unatural or chemical...

but in my opinion, it's not really calling all the time.. I think it's a matter of personality and attitude towards drugs

Edited May 6, 2010 by mutant

[incognito]

from what your describing chiral it sounds like you are living with an anxiety disorder, and i can really empathise with you, i had lived with anxiety with most of my life. its still there, i am just more aware of how how nonsical and self-defeating and unproductive it is, i can now choose to disagree and let the anxiety clouds float away, i no longer hang onto them. i still have my bad days, but i truly believe i have it under control. CBT and general counselling, diet, and meditative practice have really been of more benefit than any compound i have used (and abused).. its just you know, more permanant. psychadelic states are usually just a flood of chems, which soon lower, and often plummet once the chems have run there course. what u want is to stabalise those chems. what u want is something much more permanant. this world, the here and now is not so bad you know? With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams its still a beautiful world. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars, you have a right to be here.

Only out of love and deep respect for oyu, do i recommend you take a good break, i know u realise u need one deep down (you have told me yourself), and stabalise. address your anxietys and fears. then if you feel u need to, imbibe in a psychadlic, and see what is reall there. im sorry for fuken up this thread, you will find that people who actually care, and whose empathy is strong toward you, will be the first to speak up.

you have my number, and if you ever want to chat about anxiety, or anything else for that matter, im always open for you (but not in that way) haha. really at its core, i dont want to see you lose the gold that you have, as i did, through infactuation with the psychadelic experience. its just chasing a feeling thats already inherant, and can compound anxiety into an uncontrollable beast, which can and will destroy you. i fear for you if ou ever lose that gold, thats when reality really smacks home, and trsut me, i was standing with the rope in my hand. Being suicidal is not a nice thing, and for some reason i am beyond compelled to try and get you to put on the handbrake, for your, and your familys sake.

Edited May 6, 2010 by incognito

[holymountain]

what are true spiritual teachings I might ask...?

i guess i always make statements like this...they sometimes sound like they are spoken from within my ass. true isn't the right word. you know when you are shown things about your life or your future or your self that resonate so deeply that you become a mess of tears and gratitude? you become a humble little human so grateful for your experience and so lucky to be incarnated? my theory is k won't give you that. it seems to have its own agenda.

i read somewhere, i think it was D.M Turner called it a 'frankenstien molecule that does not obey the shamanic laws' and i know what he means. it does all sorts of crazy stuff but it is totally different to the plants and their experiences. the plants all seem to echo the same spiritual ideas and way of looking at the world. they seem to care about how you live your life and they want humanity to follow the right path. they are interested in us. k doesn't seem to give a shit or agree with these spiritual laws and has a more nihilistic, chaotic, mechanical vibe. it's like philip k dick or william burroughs books. all split personalities and human/machine hybrids and dirty empty warehouses and factories.

it's a far out place and you keep thinking 'i just want to check it out again to see if i can make some sense or understanding of it'. but it just keeps blowing your mind with more impossible stuff..tempting you back again. it can have you believing all sorts of things. and REALLY believing them. it is so convincing and life like. the visions aren't 'trippy' they are realistic and photographic.

reading john lilly's trips about cosmic control centre and about the solid state entities echo these ideas as well.

like you said chiral it's important that we do try and explore these states. as humans it's our responsibility and duty to explore new territory in the interests of advancing or mappying the territory of both inner and outer space (which may be the same thing anyway).

but we also need to be careful of the terrain we explore and the tools we use. some tools keep leading you down an empty track with promises of gold. i'm wary of things that are void of fear. it is the fear and intensity of D M T or high dose shrooms that make you respect it. it's that fear that makes you wonder if you are worthy of returning until you sort yourself out. it's the scary experiences that often provide the most learning. with K there is no fear so it's very tempting to keep going back and back and back. you have to ask at one point 'am i going back because it's my duty to explore these realms or have i just been tricked into thinking these realms will have answers and knowledge i can bring back?'

[drugo]

it [k] does all sorts of crazy stuff but it is totally different to the plants and their experiences. the plants all seem to echo the same spiritual ideas and way of...

 

great post holy, thx.

On another note, I reckon that I-M k can offer a powerful cocoon to support leaping into intense, demanding and visceral organic tryptamine carnivals. But, side-by-side a wise, super-sonic resonating, mofo can offer greater support IMHO. An aficionado can let you explore/experience extremes but have the ability to help you out if/when a posse of disencarnate draconian mobsters try and rob your soul.

Edited May 6, 2010 by telepathogen

[Chiral]

do u think u will be an adequate father, and partner, if you continue to use psychadelics in the way that u are at present?

i do not know how regularly u do, but from what i gather, from personal convos, u use quite frequently. would embracing 'this reality' be of more benefit to your children? who need a ftaher in the here and now?

 

I think sometimes y'all think a certain someone is a psychedelic junkie, to be totally frank that's not the case at all.

1 Don't drink booze

2 gave up cigarettes

3 gave up opiates

4 dietry changes are now in place

just these few things suggest that a person is indeed planning to better himself for a long haul does it not...?

any journeys are well planned executions that only ever happen when the windows of opportunity open, and let me tell you with a full time job and partner and bundle of joy, well those windows are few and far between. In all reality the scientist goes on journeys maybe a dozen times a year. No one can seriously expect to find all the answers through chemicals, but it's the chosen area of this individual and this community at large no..?

There are others doing things in other areas of life and all together a greater picture is put together. When you have limited oportunitys to explore it's often the case that the time is used to it's fullest and not wasted.

the plants all seem to echo the same spiritual ideas and way of looking at the world. they seem to care about how you live your life and they want humanity to follow the right path. they are interested in us. k doesn't seem to give a shit or agree with these spiritual laws and has a more nihilistic, chaotic, mechanical vibe. it's like philip k dick or william burroughs books. all split personalities and human/machine hybrids and dirty empty warehouses and factories.

it's a far out place and you keep thinking 'i just want to check it out again to see if i can make some sense or understanding of it'. but it just keeps blowing your mind with more impossible stuff..tempting you back again. it can have you believing all sorts of things. and REALLY believing them. it is so convincing and life like.

I think traditional plant psychedelics can only ever deal with the here and now like you say, they show us beauty and guidance, promote care for nature, respect this place in this time, but...if you think outside the box a little and don't limit yourself to just here and now, consider that there are other resonating frequencies worth exploring through other means, meditation, dissociative's, pain, astral projection, OBE's etc etc

I think the K experience is incredibly intricate and deals with a hole other area of the human psyche, one that is often overlooked in favor of colors, aliens, eleves and smiles...I guess at the end of the day a lot of this is just us trying to reverse engineer our brains and try to work out who the fuck we are and how did we come to be.

you have my number, and if you ever want to chat about anxiety, or anything else for that matter, im always open for you (but not in that way) haha. really at its core, i dont want to see you lose the gold that you have, as i did, through infactuation with the psychadelic experience. its just chasing a feeling thats already inherant, and can compound anxiety into an uncontrollable beast, which can and will destroy you. i fear for you if ou ever lose that gold, thats when reality really smacks home, and trsut me, i was standing with the rope in my hand. Being suicidal is not a nice thing, and for some reason i am beyond compelled to try and get you to put on the handbrake, for your, and your familys sake.

Thank you. Perhaps my psychiatrist was right when he diagnosed me with anxiety, but a few hundred benzo's and some ssri's are not my cup of tea thank you very much. A healthy admiration for psychedelics and exploring safely the areas of interest keep this monkey relatively happy, that and keeping away from general Joe outside as much as possible helps too.

Never been suicidal actually, carefree and foolhardy maybe but never sad enuff to contemplate ropes or anything...I fing it brutally sad that anyone could think that wide and desperate actually, i just love learning, reading about, seeking out then journeying on the acquired compound, making notes, discussing with others and generally moving on..

That is my pattern, I'm not some sort of RC pill munching, blottter head, with dreadlocks stinking of incense, covered in tribal super Mario tattoo's while I flap feathers about you blathering incantations from the dictionary of Mckennas lost mushroom monkey tribe you know.

Gurantee in 6 months though i will be busting y'alls balls about something else I've been researching and tasted...until then..let the world keep on spinnin'

signed your beloved..

FLYING SORCERER...

[holymountain]

a posse of disencarnate draconian mobsters try and rob your soul.

ha. i thought i was the only one! bastards!

[-YT-]

good book recommendations

Looks like Erowid has - Journeys Into the Bright World by Marcia Moore as html or pdf

Journeys Into the Bright World

[incognito]

but a few hundred benzo's and some ssri's are not my cup of tea thank you very much.

anxiety does not have to be addressed in this fashion. please chiral, check out CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy).

Its great for helping people overcoming their anxiety, and best of all its free through the new mental health scheme.

You could make some appointments (which are free) around ur work hours, and 'shop' around until you find a counsellor you can work with.

I narily say CBT saved my life.

keeping away from general Joe outside as much as possible helps too.

that statement is what scares me. we are general Joe. that my friend, needs addressing.

Never been suicidal actually, carefree and foolhardy maybe but never sad enuff to contemplate ropes or anything...I fing it brutally sad that anyone could think that wide and desperate actually

then you are very lucky. but i put it to you... if you lost the things you loved.. your children and partner(real gold).. due to an obsession with psychadelics.. if you become so detatched and disenchanted from them that your wife has finally had enough (women WILL only put up with so much).. its a dark, dark place man. highest suicide rate in australia, like 5 men a week pop themselves. the mind is a fragile thing, and dont ever assume you will not experience the thoughts and will to do it.

Im gonna leave it there, above all your a grown man who can make his own decisions. Just one last note, take a minute to think carefully how your use of psychadelics impacts on those around you. emotionally. is it still worth it?

Edited May 7, 2010 by incognito

[psilosophical]

i have to get back to work, but

argh! no, cigarette filter has fine glass particles, and is bad for you. a tampon is better. but i really think people should use disc filters.

 

fibreglass particles are in taylor made cigarette filters, which is indeed bad for you. sorry i should have been more accurate and said rolly filter tips. like ventii filters.

[ThunderIdeal]

i don't mean to lay a guilt trip on you but 28 of my friends are in hospital because of your slip up

(lol sif i have that many friends)

[faustus]

LOL i love your avatar philosophical. i started picking at the monitor thinking it was a bug until i realised what it was

[ThunderIdeal]

yeah me too

eventually i realised what it was and went back to picking at the bugs under my skin.

[Chiral]

For you Thunder ...and any other shabs reprezentatives...these are k hole critters I brought back wif me...

[mutant]

This thread is pretty interesting

Inco, now I understand better some other comments you made. I have seen CBT work wonders in a friend in combo with couple of months [~1year] benzos to stop the anxiety breaks and 2,5 years Zoloft {SSRI} BUT, he was seriously taking the psychtherapy sessions, so it was the combo of the drugs and therapy that helped him move forward, not just taking the pills and feeling great by eliminating symptoms. In any case, I have the greatest respect for this method [CBT, with drugs or not], but I don't think it's suitable for everyone.

holymountain

i think it was D.M Turner called it a 'frankenstien molecule that does not obey the shamanic laws' and i know what he means. it does all sorts of crazy stuff but it is totally different to the plants and their experiences. the plants all seem to echo the same spiritual ideas and way of looking at the world. they seem to care about how you live your life and they want humanity to follow the right path. they are interested in us. k doesn't seem to give a shit or agree with these spiritual laws and has a more nihilistic, chaotic, mechanical vibe. it's like philip k dick or william burroughs books. all split personalities and human/machine hybrids and dirty empty warehouses and factories.

It's totally inappropriate to suggest plant psychs are all of the classic type, tryptamine/ergoline/phenethylamine. I never experienced K, but I just mentioned two natural dissos [sadly they are both illegal in oz]. Salvia divinorum has got 'spirit', 'heart' as you put it, it can heal and it's not addictive in nature, as it can also be quite a bitch if you overdo it, dose/setting wise. Amanita is more friendly IME, but I deny it's souless or whatever.

Also, is it just me or 'human/machine hybrids, dirty empty warehouse and factories' does sound like someones experience which was induced by subs, not K? So it seems the motif of mutation and object incorporation, is not exclusive to shrooms.

Just because dissos can make you be and feel like the machine, the hybrid, or the mutant [where do you think my nick is coming from?], the combo of the organic and the cyborg, it doesn't discredit them, it's what they do, and if it's appropriate for you you might use it a bit further, that's how I see it, and how I see all psychoactive for that matter..

True, they feel somewhat empty, they feel somewhat nihilist, that's because you just died! You might feel dirty exactly because in a way they are the opposite of classic psychs. When there, there might not be any 'you', ego, but there are no other 'yous'/egos too. So even when you're dying, one tiny bit of you [with the exception of extreme and amnesiac experiences], you still know it's about you, that you're the 'center of the world' and now that you're dying it's all good cause it doesn't feel so separate, because it's really one when you escape the boundaries of the body.

Disso's can help us re-establish a healthy relationship with the ego, individuality, a concept which some psych believers are at war, so understandably, drugs that make you see stuff individually cannot be 'good' . In a way, the effects of dissos contradict, at least phenomenally , the 'teachings' of the classic psychs. But in the end, it's all about choice and approach. I know Salvia makes me less egoistic with its upcoming afterglow, so this is not about ego-friendly VS ego-hostile drugs, but attitudes and different forms of psychedelia.

During an amanita trip, I thought to myself "fuck I can have any vision I want in here!! Cool! alright, I'm gonna fall off the roof of this building" , and I did. I really fell, I saw and felt it! I felt the gravity and felt the air hitting me during the fall falling. Lasted little because fear cancelled the fall, but for some seconds I was really fucking falling!

Anyways, like I said, lots of potential, know they self, peace

Edited May 7, 2010 by mutant

[ThunderIdeal]

know thyself and thou shall know!

(all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe)